Skyrim

I just think the games have gotten progressively worse since Morrowind. I dunno where you're pulling all of this from.

No.  You are a hipster who blinds himself to both the genuine improvements of later games and the glaring flaws of Morrowind.  I see through your act.

Why don't you tell me about those genuine improvements and glaring flaws?

The combat's a lot better.  So is the dialogue, and the writing.  In general, though, the games have been appropriately streamlined and made more playable.  They're video games first and foremost, not tabletop RPGs, and they should reflect that.  We're not all D&D nerds, and that doesn't make us "casual gamers" or little kids.

This gon be good.

Wow, you're really defensive about this, aren't you?

Also, saying the combat is better is like saying Super Mario Bros. 2 is better than the original because of its writing. It was never a significant or good part of the game series, and it still isn't. If anything, they just simplified it even further since they removed the stat-reliant dice rolls.

As for the dialogue and writing, yeah, nah, that's bullshit.

As for the dialogue and writing, yeah, nah, that's bullshit.

In Skyrim and Oblivion, you talk to actual people.  In Morrowind, you talk to information kiosks.

Are you being sadaam?

Quote from: Blanko on May 18, 2013, 01:22:02 PM

As for the dialogue and writing, yeah, nah, that's bullshit.

In Skyrim and Oblivion, you talk to actual people.  In Morrowind, you talk to information kiosks.

I can't tell if you're just Saddamising us or if this one of your genuinely incorrect opinions.

Wow, you're really defensive about this, aren't you?

Also, saying the combat is better is like saying Super Mario Bros. 2 is better than the original because of its writing. It was never a significant or good part of the game series, and it still isn't. If anything, they just simplified it even further since they removed the stat-reliant dice rolls.

As for the dialogue and writing, yeah, nah, that's bullshit.

Stat reliant dice rolls? What are you talking about?

Quote from: Blanko on May 18, 2013, 01:22:02 PM

Wow, you're really defensive about this, aren't you?

Also, saying the combat is better is like saying Super Mario Bros. 2 is better than the original because of its writing. It was never a significant or good part of the game series, and it still isn't. If anything, they just simplified it even further since they removed the stat-reliant dice rolls.

As for the dialogue and writing, yeah, nah, that's bullshit.

Stat reliant dice rolls? What are you talking about?

Uh, the chance rolls? Did you even play Morrowind?

It's not how real people talk.  You mention a topic, and you get an expository wall of text.  You get used to it, sure, but it's still clunky and feels very artificial.

And removing the bullshit dice-rolling for combat was a good thing.  This is exactly what I'm talking about with how these games should first and foremost be video games.  I want to actually play through combat and test my gameplay skills.  I don't want to just grind my stats and leave the rest to luck.

But that is what Skyrim still is. It has no dodge mechanics, no accurate hitboxes, and no reliable blocking mechanics. It's all about stat tanking, except it has pretty finishing animations now which only serve to make your efforts more arbitrary and break the flow of the game.

As for stat grinding, if you're doing that in Morrowind, you're doing it wrong. You should be more worried about establishing your economy, because you can reach proficiency in anything you want by simply using the trainer services. I don't even think Skyrim had trainers, or did it? EDIT: Okay, I just checked and it does have trainers. But anyway, the point remains.

Quote from: Lorddave on May 18, 2013, 01:43:48 PM

Quote from: Blanko on May 18, 2013, 01:22:02 PM

Wow, you're really defensive about this, aren't you?

Also, saying the combat is better is like saying Super Mario Bros. 2 is better than the original because of its writing. It was never a significant or good part of the game series, and it still isn't. If anything, they just simplified it even further since they removed the stat-reliant dice rolls.

As for the dialogue and writing, yeah, nah, that's bullshit.

Stat reliant dice rolls? What are you talking about?

Uh, the chance rolls? Did you even play Morrowind?

Is it a system where you click "attack" and wait to see if it hit (WoW) or is it like Skyrim and oblivion, but each swing has a chance of missing?
Also, no.  I did not. Hence my question.

Also, skyrim has a dodge mechanic. You just need a high enough level in sneak to use it. :p

Is it a system where you click "attack" and wait to see if it hit (WoW) or is it like Skyrim and oblivion, but each swing has a chance of missing?

The latter.

Also, skyrim has a dodge mechanic. You just need a high enough level in sneak to use it. :p

That's a maneuver mechanic, not a dodge mechanic.

Quote from: Lorddave on May 19, 2013, 11:57:27 AM

Is it a system where you click "attack" and wait to see if it hit (WoW) or is it like Skyrim and oblivion, but each swing has a chance of missing?

The latter.

Sounds crappy. D&D does it because it's a table top game that's not realtime. A realtime action game does not. It has what's called the back and straef buttons.

Quote

Also, skyrim has a dodge mechanic. You just need a high enough level in sneak to use it. :p

That's a maneuver mechanic, not a dodge mechanic.

I use it to dodge. Therefore, its a dodge mechanic. Just because you don't know how to dodge an axe to the face (the secret is the back button) doesn't mean dodging doesn't exist.

Stop being lazy in an FPS and start moving around.

Sounds crappy. D&D does it because it's a table top game that's not realtime. A realtime action game does not. It has what's called the back and straef buttons.

It's not executed entirely well, but it's still better than taking the RPG out of combat entirely. The FPS movement in Morrowind is good for traversing and looking around 3D space, but I don't think that would mean you couldn't have tabletop mechanics in the gameplay.

I use it to dodge. Therefore, its a dodge mechanic. Just because you don't know how to dodge an axe to the face (the secret is the back button) doesn't mean dodging doesn't exist.

Stop being lazy in an FPS and start moving around.

No, Dave, that's positioning. Skyrim's attack ranges are horribly exaggerated and all moves are entirely based on speed and range, there's zero emphasis on angle, arc or poke, and as such the supposed "dodging" is entirely reduced to positioning yourself relative to the enemy's active range (which, again, is blatantly exaggerated because weapon ranges are based on values instead of hitboxes). At best you can try to time enemy attacks and shift back and forth in between but even that's kind of pointless without any proper enemy telegraphing, and because the game is designed from ground-up to be played by tanking and healing, since there are hardly any stun mechanics either. Especially on your end.

Try playing Monster Hunter or Dark Souls and tell me that Skyrim has appropriate dodge mechanics.

lrn2play Skyrim, Balkno.  You're obviously doing it wrong.

lrn2play Skyrim, Balkno.  You're obviously doing it wrong.

sadaam

I'm loving this.

I'm loving this.

Please weigh in.

Quote from: Lorddave on May 19, 2013, 12:13:22 PM

Sounds crappy. D&D does it because it's a table top game that's not realtime. A realtime action game does not. It has what's called the back and straef buttons.

It's not executed entirely well, but it's still better than taking the RPG out of combat entirely. The FPS movement in Morrowind is good for traversing and looking around 3D space, but I don't think that would mean you couldn't have tabletop mechanics in the gameplay.

No. RPG is not a combat style. RPG stands for Role Playing Game. As long as you play a role, it's an RPG.  One does not play an FPS like an older style mmo.(standing still and hitting attack until the enemy is dead).  I like my FPS games to require skill, not a high number.

Quote

I use it to dodge. Therefore, its a dodge mechanic. Just because you don't know how to dodge an axe to the face (the secret is the back button) doesn't mean dodging doesn't exist.

Stop being lazy in an FPS and start moving around.

No, Dave, that's positioning. Skyrim's attack ranges are horribly exaggerated and all moves are entirely based on speed and range, there's zero emphasis on angle, arc or poke, and as such the supposed "dodging" is entirely reduced to positioning yourself relative to the enemy's active range (which, again, is blatantly exaggerated because weapon ranges are based on values instead of hitboxes). At best you can try to time enemy attacks and shift back and forth in between but even that's kind of pointless without any proper enemy telegraphing, and because the game is designed from ground-up to be played by tanking and healing, since there are hardly any stun mechanics either. Especially on your end.

Try playing Monster Hunter or Dark Souls and tell me that Skyrim has appropriate dodge mechanics.

Arc, poke, and angle? We aren't playing on a wii dude. And complex aiming of melee weapons almost always ends badly when your controls are limited to two analog Sticks. (movement and camera)

Know how I played Skyrim first time around? Stealth archery.
Hardly tank and heal.

Here, let's settle this debate. Go out with a friend, carrying sticks and try to dodge each other's attacks. My money says that neither of you are limber or quick enough to duck, do backflips, or roll sideways away from a verticle, overhead strike.

Wow, good job missing the point entirely. You're talking about aimed attacks and Wii games when I didn't mention them at all, and comparing archaic melee range value combat to stickfighting that is more akin to hitbox-based combat. Not to mention you used an example that assumes neither party knows what the fuck they're doing.

Maybe instead of basing your combat on how children whack each other with sticks, you could make a system with depth, and elements of countering, punishing and denial. Like, you know, fencing or actual swordfighting. But of course judging by what you're saying, you have no idea what I'm even talking about, so I wouldn't be surprised if you haven't played a more complex game than Skyrim in your life.

You know what, have it your way. You say Skyrim has the depth of whacking each other with sticks without technical knowledge, and I'm fine with that. I agree. You win.

Wow, good job missing the point entirely. You're talking about aimed attacks and Wii games when I didn't mention them at all, and comparing archaic melee range value combat to stickfighting that is more akin to hitbox-based combat. Not to mention you used an example that assumes neither party knows what the fuck they're doing.

Maybe instead of basing your combat on how children whack each other with sticks, you could make a system with depth, and elements of countering, punishing and denial. Like, you know, fencing or actual swordfighting. But of course judging by what you're saying, you have no idea what I'm even talking about, so I wouldn't be surprised if you haven't played a more complex game than Skyrim in your life.

You know what, have it your way. You say Skyrim has the depth of whacking each other with sticks without technical knowledge, and I'm fine with that. I agree. You win.

Wow, you're really defensive about this, aren't you?

Quote from: Blanko on May 19, 2013, 02:22:15 PM

Wow, good job missing the point entirely. You're talking about aimed attacks and Wii games when I didn't mention them at all, and comparing archaic melee range value combat to stickfighting that is more akin to hitbox-based combat. Not to mention you used an example that assumes neither party knows what the fuck they're doing.

Maybe instead of basing your combat on how children whack each other with sticks, you could make a system with depth, and elements of countering, punishing and denial. Like, you know, fencing or actual swordfighting. But of course judging by what you're saying, you have no idea what I'm even talking about, so I wouldn't be surprised if you haven't played a more complex game than Skyrim in your life.

You know what, have it your way. You say Skyrim has the depth of whacking each other with sticks without technical knowledge, and I'm fine with that. I agree. You win.

Wow, you're really defensive about this, aren't you?

It's over, Saddam. We've already settled this debate. Dave and I have agreed that Skyrim accurately represents how two kids would fight each other with sticks.

Even if I agreed with that, which I don't, two kids fighting with sticks is still an improvement over two nerds rolling dice.

The difference is, Morrowind is an RPG and does a decent job at it, but Skyrim tries to be an action game and fails miserably.

Yeah, Skyrim's combat is "better" than Morrowind's, but the difference is so negligible that it barely matters. It's really a step forward and two steps back.

I've had enough of your tomfoolery.  It's time to settle this dispute like men.  Get your stick ready.

Arena and Daggerfall are the best games. The worst games are Skyrim and Morrowind

Arena and Daggerfall are the best games. The worst games are Skyrim and Morrowind

Please don't post in this thread.