Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?

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Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« on: October 22, 2011, 02:14:34 AM »
A Google search of zetetic/zeteticism yields very few results. The most prominent ones that I can see are either here on TFES or ENAG. A guy called Marcello Truzzi is also mentioned, but his "version" of zeteticism seems to be different to how it is used here. Other than that, its just online dictionary definitions of the word.

I don't understand why the zetetic method is held in such high regard here. Why do you trust the zetetic method on the shape of the Earth when, as far as I know, it has never been used to prove anything of significance other than the shape of the Earth.

Science has given us things from the home computer to the TV & other technology. It has given us the combustion engine, made it possible to travel huge distances around the world in a relatively short time period.

What has zeteticism given us other than a disputed notion of a flat earth, along with ridiculous assumptions of aetheric winds, bendy light, universal acceleration, ice-wall ninjas and other ideas to try to "make it work" so to speak?

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Thork

Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2011, 02:23:34 AM »
The zetetic method requires an ingredient that the scientific method does not. You. Zeteticism is finding out for yourself. You are 100% sure of the outcome because you know it happened that way. Scientific method is just taking other people's word for it. People who screw up and make mistakes, people who are lazy, people who cheat to gain notoriety, people who may want to deceive you etc.

Zeteticism removes the problem of other people and their agendas. Its a cleaner, more pure form of science. Its you seeking the truth for yourself.

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2011, 02:55:48 AM »
Zeteticism gave us electricity.
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2011, 03:01:12 AM »
The zetetic method requires an ingredient that the scientific method does not. You. Zeteticism is finding out for yourself. You are 100% sure of the outcome because you know it happened that way. Scientific method is just taking other people's word for it. People who screw up and make mistakes, people who are lazy, people who cheat to gain notoriety, people who may want to deceive you etc.

Zeteticism removes the problem of other people and their agendas. Its a cleaner, more pure form of science. Its you seeking the truth for yourself.

So for you zeteticism if only done by honest people , with a good approach and a good methodology, whereas regular science is done bt lazy, cheating, deceiving people?

That's not very zetetic!
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2011, 08:51:29 PM »
The zetetic method requires an ingredient that the scientific method does not. You. Zeteticism is finding out for yourself. You are 100% sure of the outcome because you know it happened that way. Scientific method is just taking other people's word for it. People who screw up and make mistakes, people who are lazy, people who cheat to gain notoriety, people who may want to deceive you etc.

Zeteticism removes the problem of other people and their agendas. Its a cleaner, more pure form of science. Its you seeking the truth for yourself.

Even if you are 100% certain that you know how something happens doesn't mean that you KNOW that is how it happens. Our senses are not infallible and can and do deceive us all the time. Only by working together with other people and combining your experiences with theirs can you piece together truth. How could you ever move forward in a field of study if you feel you must retrace the steps of every single person who has ever contributed?
You, sir, can't comprehend the idea of bottoms.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2011, 12:31:27 AM »
Zeteticism gave us electricity.

Really?  Please enlighten us.

Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2011, 09:56:30 PM »
Growing up here in Washington state (the west half), I used to see temperatures of 100 degrees for a week or two during the summer.  105 or so.

In the summer of 2009 we broke 100 a few days if I remember correctly. 

In summer of 2010 we only made it to about 95 for a week (might have been less), but mostly we had mid-80's and 70's.  I had windows open at night and a couple fans running for awhile.

This last summer only gave us temperaturs of about 90, and only for a few days.  Most of the summer was upper 70's and 80's.  By 80's I mean 81-82.  Mostly 70's.  It was cold enough at night I kept the windows closed every night all summer.

I have determined we are in the early stages of global cooling based on my personal observations.

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Thork

Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2011, 02:52:51 AM »
Growing up here in Washington state (the west half), I used to see temperatures of 100 degrees for a week or two during the summer.  105 or so.

In the summer of 2009 we broke 100 a few days if I remember correctly. 

In summer of 2010 we only made it to about 95 for a week (might have been less), but mostly we had mid-80's and 70's.  I had windows open at night and a couple fans running for awhile.

This last summer only gave us temperaturs of about 90, and only for a few days.  Most of the summer was upper 70's and 80's.  By 80's I mean 81-82.  Mostly 70's.  It was cold enough at night I kept the windows closed every night all summer.

I have determined we are in the early stages of global cooling based on my personal observations.

If you are going to reduce it to that, what evidence do you have that global warming is anything other than a plot to extract more money from you with environmental taxes?

Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2011, 05:26:04 AM »

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Lord Xenu

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Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2011, 05:32:39 AM »
Zeteticism gave us electricity.

Really?  Please enlighten us.
Lol, unintentional pun. Sig'd.

Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2011, 05:41:13 AM »
The zetetic method requires an ingredient that the scientific method does not. You. Zeteticism is finding out for yourself. You are 100% sure of the outcome because you know it happened that way. Scientific method is just taking other people's word for it. People who screw up and make mistakes, people who are lazy, people who cheat to gain notoriety, people who may want to deceive you etc.

Zeteticism removes the problem of other people and their agendas. Its a cleaner, more pure form of science. Its you seeking the truth for yourself.
That does sound nice and all, but if everyone was to find out for themselves, so to speak, then there would be a crazy amount of differing results/theories & nobody would agree on anything because they can all "prove" their theories to their own satisfaction. Examples abound on this website alone with theories such as spotlight sun/non-spotlight sun, finite disc/infinite plane, etc. Nobody tries to disprove any of them, instead simply accepting them as another possibility.


The difference, where mainstream science is concerned, is that you're not just trying to convince yourself: you need to convince the scientific community. Papers & theories get peer reviewed by people with the highest levels of education in the relevant fields. Other scientists try to prove your theory incorrect. It is only by standing up to intense scrutiny that theories get widely accepted.

For the most part, this results in agreement on an "accepted" model/theory/whatever unlike the sleight of hand that goes on around here. People keep debating until they get proved to be incorrect, then they just pick another model to support.

This is all pretty much beside the point, however. My main question was what has zeteticism done to earn such respect? What theories, models, ideas, etc has zeteticism given the world that have caused FE people to trust it more than mainstream science? The only answer given so far is PizzaPlanet's statement that it has given us electricity, although he hasn't yet linked his sources.

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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2011, 08:05:39 AM »
That does sound nice and all, but if everyone was to find out for themselves, so to speak, then there would be a crazy amount of differing results/theories & nobody would agree on anything because they can all "prove" their theories to their own satisfaction. Examples abound on this website alone with theories such as spotlight sun/non-spotlight sun, finite disc/infinite plane, etc. Nobody tries to disprove any of them, instead simply accepting them as another possibility.


The difference, where mainstream science is concerned, is that you're not just trying to convince yourself: you need to convince the scientific community. Papers & theories get peer reviewed by people with the highest levels of education in the relevant fields. Other scientists try to prove your theory incorrect. It is only by standing up to intense scrutiny that theories get widely accepted.

For the most part, this results in agreement on an "accepted" model/theory/whatever unlike the sleight of hand that goes on around here. People keep debating until they get proved to be incorrect, then they just pick another model to support.

This is all pretty much beside the point, however. My main question was what has zeteticism done to earn such respect? What theories, models, ideas, etc has zeteticism given the world that have caused FE people to trust it more than mainstream science? The only answer given so far is PizzaPlanet's statement that it has given us electricity, although he hasn't yet linked his sources.

Benjamin Franklin was pretty much a radical sceptic and could be thought of as zetetic in his thinking.  Perhaps PizzaPlanet had Franklin partly in mind, along with the ancients, in his mention of electricity?   

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Thork

Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2011, 08:27:30 AM »
Benjamin Franklin was pretty much a radical sceptic and could be thought of as zetetic in his thinking.  Perhaps PizzaPlanet had Franklin partly in mind, along with the ancients, in his mention of electricity?   
Wait a second. Do Americans think Benjamin Franklin invented electricity?

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rooster

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Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2011, 08:44:13 AM »
Benjamin Franklin was pretty much a radical sceptic and could be thought of as zetetic in his thinking.  Perhaps PizzaPlanet had Franklin partly in mind, along with the ancients, in his mention of electricity?   
Wait a second. Do Americans think Benjamin Franklin invented electricity?


I think Mrs. Peach may just be referring to the whole kite and lightning experiment.
cock-a-doodle-doo

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Thork

Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2011, 08:47:48 AM »
Benjamin Franklin was pretty much a radical sceptic and could be thought of as zetetic in his thinking.  Perhaps PizzaPlanet had Franklin partly in mind, along with the ancients, in his mention of electricity?   
Wait a second. Do Americans think Benjamin Franklin invented electricity?


I think Mrs. Peach may just be referring to the whole kite and lightning experiment.
Which has as much truth in it as Washington and his Dad's cherry tree. Somehow much of your folklore seems to be assumed as fact. Is this propaganda or just ignorance? Next you will be telling us that Edison invented the light bulb.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 08:50:55 AM by Thork »

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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2011, 08:57:45 AM »
Benjamin Franklin was pretty much a radical sceptic and could be thought of as zetetic in his thinking.  Perhaps PizzaPlanet had Franklin partly in mind, along with the ancients, in his mention of electricity?   
Wait a second. Do Americans think Benjamin Franklin invented electricity?


No, Mr. Thork.  We think he established for himself at least that lightning is electrical in nature by his description of a proposed experiment with a kite, a damp string and a conductor.  Defining the nature of electricity has a long history and you might note that I included 'the ancients.'  Only recently, the previous views on the nature of static electricity have come into question.  Where did you come up with the idea that I think Franklin 'invented, electricity?

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Thork

Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2011, 09:01:58 AM »
Where did you come up with the idea that I think Franklin 'invented, electricity?

Zeteticism gave us electricity.

Benjamin Franklin was pretty much a radical sceptic and could be thought of as zetetic in his thinking.  Perhaps PizzaPlanet had Franklin partly in mind, along with the ancients, in his mention of electricity?   

Relevant
Quote from: http://www.wisegeek.com/who-discovered-electricity.htm
While many believe Benjamin Franklin to be the father of electricity, current findings seem to show otherwise. In 1752, Franklin is said to have performed the famous experiment of flying a kite during a thunderstorm, which led to the discovery that lightning and electricity were somehow related. Modern scientists know this to be something of a tall tale, since being hit by lightning would have been fatal.

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rooster

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Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2011, 09:02:50 AM »
Benjamin Franklin was pretty much a radical sceptic and could be thought of as zetetic in his thinking.  Perhaps PizzaPlanet had Franklin partly in mind, along with the ancients, in his mention of electricity?   
Wait a second. Do Americans think Benjamin Franklin invented electricity?


I think Mrs. Peach may just be referring to the whole kite and lightning experiment.
Which has as much truth in it as Washington and his Dad's cherry tree. Somehow much of your folklore seems to be assumed as fact. Is this propaganda or just ignorance? Next you will be telling us that Edison invented the light bulb.

Suddenly all Americans believe in their legends?  ???

Franklin may or may not have actually tried the kite theory, but he did study electricity extensively. And it depends on what you mean by "invented". He didn't make the first lift bulb but he made it better.
cock-a-doodle-doo

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Thork

Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2011, 09:05:43 AM »
I am just interested. Are you taught things like 'Franklin is the father of electricity', 'Edison invented the light bulb', George Washington couldn't tell a lie' etc at school? If so, combined with swearing allegiance at the beginning of the day, modern Americans have many similarities with Hitler youth.

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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2011, 09:09:09 AM »
You might also ask yourself and your laughing buddy why Franklin was given the the Royal Society's Copley Medal for his work on the nature of electricity?  They rarely give it for folklore.

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Thork

Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2011, 09:12:17 AM »
You might also ask yourself and your laughing buddy why Franklin was given the the Royal Society's Copley Medal for his work on the nature of electricity?  They rarely give it for folklore.

So what did Franklin do that was Zetetic?

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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2011, 09:19:13 AM »
You might also ask yourself and your laughing buddy why Franklin was given the the Royal Society's Copley Medal for his work on the nature of electricity?  They rarely give it for folklore.

So what did Franklin do that was Zetetic?

For one, his thinking resulting in the mapping of the Gulf Stream could be classified as zetetic in nature.  I'm in the dark though as to just what was known before his temperature readings made it into common knowledge so this is just my speculation.

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Thork

Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2011, 09:21:49 AM »
And how did his Gulf stream readings contribute to 'giving us electricity'?

Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2011, 09:25:16 AM »
Thread derailing aside, what has zeteticism given us? Please post a link to where this info came as well.

So far there is the as yet unsubstantiated claim regarding electricity. Anything else?

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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2011, 09:25:54 AM »
And how did his Gulf stream readings contribute to 'giving us electricity'?

I would have to say they didn't contribute at all.  They contributed to, as I said, the mapping of the Gulf Stream.  You might note also that 'giving us electricity' is your words, not mine.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2011, 09:34:22 AM »
Many ventures were Zetetic in nature. Remember, it was the Wright Brother who said -- "Science Theory held us up for years. When we threw out the science and started from experiment to experience, then we invented the airplane."

The Wright Brithers were Zetetics. They started from inquiry, not hypothesis. They did not "build on the shoulders of giants" like a disreputable scientician. They did their own experiments and let reality do the talking.

If you start off on the biases and misconceptions of others you are doing a disservice to your work. It should not be assumed that the research of others is valid.

The correct way to proceed is to start off on a clean slate, make no assumptions, do the experiments, account for every possibility, and let the results do the talking.

Many inventors are Zetetics. They do not start off by creating a hypothesis and then try to prove it true. They do not build their work off of the card house theories of others. They start off by inquiry, doing a series of basic experiments to explore all possibilities until they discover what is true and what is false.

Zeteticiscm is superior to the scientific method because it brings us to the certain truth rather than just a truth. For more information please read Chapter 1 of Earth Not a Globe "Zetetic and Theoretic Defined and Compared" --

http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za04.htm#page_1
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 09:41:57 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Thork

Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2011, 09:35:54 AM »
And how did his Gulf stream readings contribute to 'giving us electricity'?

I would have to say they didn't contribute at all.  They contributed to, as I said, the mapping of the Gulf Stream.  You might note also that 'giving us electricity' is your words, not mine.
Apart from adapting the phrase to make it past-continuous tense so it made sense in the sentence, the sentiment is really from PizzaPlanet

Zeteticism gave us electricity.

Which you endorsed here.
Perhaps PizzaPlanet had Franklin partly in mind, along with the ancients, in his mention of electricity?   

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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2011, 09:38:29 AM »
And how did his Gulf stream readings contribute to 'giving us electricity'?

I would have to say they didn't contribute at all.  They contributed to, as I said, the mapping of the Gulf Stream.  You might note also that 'giving us electricity' is your words, not mine.
Apart from adapting the phrase to make it past-continuous tense so it made sense in the sentence, the sentiment is really from PizzaPlanet

Zeteticism gave us electricity.

Which you endorsed here.
Perhaps PizzaPlanet had Franklin partly in mind, along with the ancients, in his mention of electricity?   

You should have noted the many modifiers in my post.  You might better place your attack elsewhere.

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Thork

Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2011, 09:40:13 AM »
Attack is a very strong word. Delicate probing in the absence of RErs to torment, is probably nearer the mark. ;)


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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Why do you hold zeteticism in such high regard?
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2011, 09:43:59 AM »
My use of attack was accurate.