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"Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?

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Zogg

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"Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« on: October 18, 2011, 05:49:36 AM »
According to the FAQ, the whole FET is based on two main arguments:
  • "Looks flat to me."
  • "Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so."

I already created a topic which disproves the first argument. This topic is about the second argument.

So, some 19th century inventor claimed that earth is flat. On the other side, space agencies claim that the earth is round. Please tell me : Why should I believe Mister Rowbotham  rather than every manager, scientist, technician or astronaut who ever worked at NASA, ESA, ROSCOSMOS or any other space agency ?
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Thork

Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2011, 06:24:07 AM »
Dr Rowbotham was the founder of Zetetic astronomy. His methodology by starting again from the perspective of inquiry is flawless. One need only read his book ENaG to understand and be won over by his reasoning. Dr Rowbotham is the man who provided us with many of the tools needed to lift the lid on the conspiracy.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 06:28:23 AM by Thork »
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Zogg

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2011, 07:25:00 AM »
Yes, I'm aware that you believe that Mister Rowbotham is right and that thousands of modern scientists are either wrong or liars. But why ? The only answer you have given so far is "Because he is right". It's the same as your conclusion that the earth is flat because it is flat.

Quote from: Thork on October 18, 2011, 06:24:07 AM
One need only read his book ENaG to understand and be won over by his reasoning.

I have read parts of his book (here) and I was far from being "won over" by his so-called reasoning. I found it full of faulty reasoning, anecdotical evidence,  unproven claims and elided problems. Not more and not less than any other pseudo-science botch.

(Of course, you will argue that I'm wrong about Mister Rowbotham  because I have been brain-washed by your NASA conspiracy, that the NASA conspiracy must exist because the earth is flat, and that the earth is flat because Mister Rowbotham said so. Perfect circular reasoning.)
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Tom Bishop

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2011, 07:55:13 AM »
Quote from: Zogg on October 18, 2011, 07:25:00 AM
Yes, I'm aware that you believe that Mister Rowbotham is right and that thousands of modern scientists are either wrong or liars. But why ? The only answer you have given so far is "Because he is right". It's the same as your conclusion that the earth is flat because it is flat.

Rowbotham's experiments and studies have been repeated numerous times.

The theories of Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, et all, are all easily refuted. Earth Not a Globe goes through why they are mistaken and skewed.
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Crustinator

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2011, 08:00:20 AM »
Dr Rowbotham was an excellent man who excelled in everything he attempted, including medicine. When he played golf it is recorded that he usually scored at least 4 hole-in-ones per round.

Why should we doubt such a great man?
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Son of Orospu

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2011, 09:16:59 AM »
Quote from: Thork on October 18, 2011, 06:24:07 AM
Dr Rowbotham was the founder of Zetetic astronomy. His methodology by starting again from the perspective of inquiry is flawless. One need only read his book ENaG to understand and be won over by his reasoning. Dr Rowbotham is the man who provided us with many of the tools needed to lift the lid on the conspiracy.

Rowbotham invented zeteticism in order to counter claims from his contemporaries about his reasoning not being scientifically founded.  When people said "But science shows us this" he countered with "But zentetics shows it is not true". 

I am not trying to disrespect Rowbotham, but after reading ENaG, his theory has so many holes that he had to invint a new kind of science to try to fill in the missing facts.
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jraffield1

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2011, 12:41:30 PM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on October 18, 2011, 07:55:13 AM
Quote from: Zogg on October 18, 2011, 07:25:00 AM
Yes, I'm aware that you believe that Mister Rowbotham is right and that thousands of modern scientists are either wrong or liars. But why ? The only answer you have given so far is "Because he is right". It's the same as your conclusion that the earth is flat because it is flat.

Rowbotham's experiments and studies have been repeated numerous times.

And each time there were repeated, the results were different.
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Quote from: Redhotpengy on December 08, 2011, 04:48:37 PM
You, sir, can't comprehend the idea of bottoms.
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Tausami

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2011, 01:40:29 PM »
Quote from: jraffield1 on October 18, 2011, 12:41:30 PM
Quote from: Tom Bishop on October 18, 2011, 07:55:13 AM
Quote from: Zogg on October 18, 2011, 07:25:00 AM
Yes, I'm aware that you believe that Mister Rowbotham is right and that thousands of modern scientists are either wrong or liars. But why ? The only answer you have given so far is "Because he is right". It's the same as your conclusion that the earth is flat because it is flat.

Rowbotham's experiments and studies have been repeated numerous times.

And each time there were repeated, the results were different.

Please provide evidence fir your outrageous claim.
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PizzaPlanet

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2011, 02:16:49 PM »
Quote from: jroa on October 18, 2011, 09:16:59 AM
Rowbotham invented zeteticism
Incorrect.
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Son of Orospu

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2011, 02:26:21 PM »
Quote from: PizzaPlanet on October 18, 2011, 02:16:49 PM
Quote from: jroa on October 18, 2011, 09:16:59 AM
Rowbotham invented zeteticism
Incorrect.

Wow.  Thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom with us.  I wish I could produce such thought provoking posts such as "Incorrect".
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 03:40:05 PM by jroa »
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Crustinator

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2011, 04:15:39 PM »
Rowbotham invented the internet, but because he was a flat earth believer his ideas were hushed up for many years.
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Son of Orospu

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2011, 04:19:37 PM »
Everyone knows Al Gore invented the internet.   ::)
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Son of Orospu

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2011, 04:30:51 PM »
Quote from: PizzaPlanet on October 18, 2011, 02:16:49 PM
Quote from: jroa on October 18, 2011, 09:16:59 AM
Rowbotham invented zeteticism
Incorrect.

Then you are calling Thork a liar.

Quote from: Thork on October 13, 2011, 01:10:05 PM

Then your question is about Zeteticism. It is a form of investigation based on inquiry and was established along with the modern Flat Earth Society by Dr Samuel Rowbotham in 1849.

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jraffield1

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2011, 05:40:22 PM »
Quote from: Tausami on October 18, 2011, 01:40:29 PM
Quote from: jraffield1 on October 18, 2011, 12:41:30 PM
Quote from: Tom Bishop on October 18, 2011, 07:55:13 AM
Quote from: Zogg on October 18, 2011, 07:25:00 AM
Yes, I'm aware that you believe that Mister Rowbotham is right and that thousands of modern scientists are either wrong or liars. But why ? The only answer you have given so far is "Because he is right". It's the same as your conclusion that the earth is flat because it is flat.

Rowbotham's experiments and studies have been repeated numerous times.

And each time there were repeated, the results were different.

Please provide evidence fir your outrageous claim.


[evidence]
In the year 1870, Alfred Russel Wallace repeated the Bedford level experiment and concluded that the Earth is round.
[/evidence]
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Quote from: Redhotpengy on December 08, 2011, 04:48:37 PM
You, sir, can't comprehend the idea of bottoms.
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Son of Orospu

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2011, 05:42:54 PM »
Quote from: jraffield1 on October 18, 2011, 05:40:22 PM
Quote from: Tausami on October 18, 2011, 01:40:29 PM
Quote from: jraffield1 on October 18, 2011, 12:41:30 PM
Quote from: Tom Bishop on October 18, 2011, 07:55:13 AM
Quote from: Zogg on October 18, 2011, 07:25:00 AM
Yes, I'm aware that you believe that Mister Rowbotham is right and that thousands of modern scientists are either wrong or liars. But why ? The only answer you have given so far is "Because he is right". It's the same as your conclusion that the earth is flat because it is flat.

Rowbotham's experiments and studies have been repeated numerous times.

And each time there were repeated, the results were different.

Please provide evidence fir your outrageous claim.


[evidence]
In the year 1870, Alfred Russel Wallace repeated the Bedford level experiment and concluded that the Earth is round.
[/evidence]

Ouch!  That hurts.
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Thork

Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2011, 02:44:29 AM »
Wallace cheated and colluded with the 'judges' of the experiment. In 1876, three judges of the Queen's bench ruled in Hampden's favour and arbitrator Walsh was ordered to return Hampden's money.

You may read the entire official court transcript here

The FE'r successfully sued as a result of that experiment.

So

Rowbotham - Found earth flat
Wallace - Result nulled by court of law
Lady Blount - Found earth flat.

The only "ouch that hurts" is for RErs who don't know much about the subject. Those that do would avoid like the plague.

Bedford Level experiments only ever proved earth flat.
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Tausami

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2011, 02:54:31 AM »
Also, read ENaG
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jraffield1

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2011, 12:05:20 PM »
Quote from: Tausami on October 19, 2011, 02:54:31 AM
Also, read ENaG

ENaG is outdated and the science used to prove that the Earth is flat is disproven daily.

For example, I have successfully debunked UA in this thread http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=51318.0
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Quote from: Redhotpengy on December 08, 2011, 04:48:37 PM
You, sir, can't comprehend the idea of bottoms.
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markjo

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2011, 01:28:43 PM »
Quote from: Thork on October 19, 2011, 02:44:29 AM
Wallace cheated and colluded with the 'judges' of the experiment. In 1876, three judges of the Queen's bench ruled in Hampden's favour and arbitrator Walsh was ordered to return Hampden's money.

You may read the entire official court transcript here

The FE'r successfully sued as a result of that experiment.

I read the transcript and found no mention of the judges concluding that Hampden cheated.  The money was returned because the court ruled that the wager itself was null and void.
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Thork

Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2011, 01:34:31 PM »
So no one won the bet ... it was null and void.

You've been getting beaten up in the upper fora as of late. You might need a rest to recharge your comprehension skills.
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NTheGreat

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2011, 01:45:47 PM »
I've never understood the obsession of what the outcome of the bet was. It's much easier to just look at the outcome of the experiment itself, rather than what either side said or did about it.
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Tausami

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2011, 01:55:42 PM »
Quote from: NTheGreat on October 19, 2011, 01:45:47 PM
I've never understood the obsession of what the outcome of the bet was. It's much easier to just look at the outcome of the experiment itself, rather than what either side said or did about it.

Not really, because an unbiased jury of their peers said that Wallace cheated.

Also, not to use an ad Hominem, but A.R. Wallace is also the guy who is the reason evolution isn't more widely accepted, proposed that theory about canals on Mars, and started the anti-vaccination campaign.

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Russel_Wallace#Other_controversies
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 02:08:04 PM by Tausami »
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rin112

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2011, 02:24:59 PM »
Quote from: Thork on October 19, 2011, 01:34:31 PM
So no one won the bet ... it was null and void.
The bet, not the result.
Quote from: Thork on October 19, 2011, 01:34:31 PM
You might need a rest to recharge your comprehension skills.
You too.
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Tausami

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2011, 02:34:28 PM »
Quote from: rin112 on October 19, 2011, 02:24:59 PM
Quote from: Thork on October 19, 2011, 01:34:31 PM
So no one won the bet ... it was null and void.
The bet, not the reslt
Quote from: Tausami on October 19, 2011, 01:55:42 PM
Not really, because an unbiased jury of their peers said that Wallace cheated.

www.rif.org
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 06:54:32 PM by Tausami »
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EmperorZhark

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2011, 03:42:28 PM »
Quote from: Tausami on October 19, 2011, 01:55:42 PM

Not really, because an unbiased jury of their peers said that Wallace cheated.

Also, not to use an ad Hominem, but A.R. Wallace is also the guy who is the reason evolution isn't more widely accepted, proposed that theory about canals on Mars, and started the anti-vaccination campaign.

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Russel_Wallace#Other_controversies

You should read better Wikipedia:

About Wallace so-called cheating:
"The judge for the wager, the editor of Field magazine, declared Wallace the winner, but Hampden refused to accept the result. He sued Wallace and launched a campaign, which persisted for several years, of writing letters to various publications and to organisations of which Wallace was a member denouncing him as a swindler and a thief. Wallace won multiple libel suits against Hampden, but the resulting litigation cost Wallace more than the amount of the wager and the controversy frustrated him for years"

About the canals on Mars:
"Wallace wrote the short book Is Mars Habitable? to criticise the claims made by Percival Lowell that there were Martian canals built by intelligent beings. "
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Thork

Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2011, 03:51:25 PM »
Quote from: EmperorZhark on October 19, 2011, 03:42:28 PM
You should read better Wikipedia:

About Wallace so-called cheating:
"The judge for the wager, the editor of Field magazine, declared Wallace the winner, but Hampden refused to accept the result. He sued Wallace and launched a campaign, which persisted for several years, of writing letters to various publications and to organisations of which Wallace was a member denouncing him as a swindler and a thief. Wallace won multiple libel suits against Hampden, but the resulting litigation cost Wallace more than the amount of the wager and the controversy frustrated him for years"
I just know all the history as I have read dozens of sources. I linked a source before. Hampden sued Walsh. Not Wallace. He susccessfully sued the arbitrator for the amount. He won. The arbitration sucked.

Quote from: EmperorZhark on October 19, 2011, 03:42:28 PM
About the canals on Mars:
"Wallace wrote the short book Is Mars Habitable? to criticise the claims made by Percival Lowell that there were Martian canals built by intelligent beings. "
How could anyone get trolled that hard? Wallace was a noob.
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EmperorZhark

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2011, 03:53:41 PM »
Yo hae to do better than that to convive that he was a noob.
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markjo

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2011, 04:04:56 PM »
Quote from: Thork on October 19, 2011, 01:34:31 PM
So no one won the bet ... it was null and void.

You've been getting beaten up in the upper fora as of late. You might need a rest to recharge your comprehension skills.

A null and void bet does not mean that Hampden (who wouldn't even look through the theodolite) was right about the shape of the earth. 
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Thork

Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2011, 04:08:02 PM »
No. It means that the only instance where a rounder earther proved earth round with the Bedford level experiment, actually turned out to be because the arbitrator was friends with the round earther. (Wallace even paid Walsh's court costs for him).

so 2 for FE, 0 for RE. 1 result nullified. Arguing the earth is round seems an exercise in semantics when faced with information like this.
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EmperorZhark

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Re: "Because Samuel Birley Rowbotham said so" - a valid argument?
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2011, 04:08:09 PM »
By the way, why should Robothm texts be sacred texts?
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