Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?

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Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« on: October 13, 2011, 11:16:58 AM »
I'm sorry, I did read through the FAQ, but I felt like the answers were too brief. I like fuller explanations, hence my posting questions.

First of all, I would like to state that I have an open mind. As a firm believer in the scientific method, I do not believe that my intuition and viewpoint are a reliable means for discerning truth. Either through conspiracy or through legitimate scientific advancement of humanity, I have been lead to believe the Earth is round all my life. The evidence presented to me was seemingly infallible, but it's true that I can't rule out this whole global conspiracy theory.

Now, what I would like to address from the FAQ is the reasoning behind believing in FET. The statement made was "We believe the Earth is flat because it looks flat". Why is it assumed that the way Earth is perceived by observers reveals an accurate picture of reality? Shouldn't truth be decided on after intense, disciplined study conducted with an open mind, following the scientific method? And if something can't be studied or proven as absolute fact, it remains just an idea without experimental verification? Just a belief?

Religion is a faith-based discipline, a belief, that exists without objective proof. A theory is slightly better than a faith-based discipline or belief because it reveals consistent patterns or evidence pointing to one idea. A rule or physical law can only exist if absolute, irrefutable proof exists after a falsifiable experimental process.

This does not seem to exist to PROVE FET. And even though you call it a THEORY, you state it as FACT... as if it were a LAW. Which it cannot be, given that nobody knows for him or her self what the true shape of the planet it is. Therefore, I urge many of you to revise your wording. Change any information presented as factual to be that of belief. WE BELIVE the world is flat. Not IT IS FLAT.

Thoughts? Arguments? Also, please answer why human intuition is a basis for revealing reality.

Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2011, 11:42:20 AM »
If no reply is given, then I will begin to lose confidence in the authors of this site. Perhaps the real conspiracy is here, on this forum?

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Thork

Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2011, 12:17:33 PM »
Welcome. I can see it must be frustrating when people ignore your questions. However someone asked that exact question earlier this week. I think the discussion is still going on so it will explain why no one is falling over themselves to talk about it all over again.
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=51150.msg1253036#msg1253036

Hopefully that will answer your queries. If anything odd about that thread jumps out, ask about that specifically and I'm sure someone will take time to explain it to you.

Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2011, 12:55:18 PM »
Welcome. I can see it must be frustrating when people ignore your questions. However someone asked that exact question earlier this week. I think the discussion is still going on so it will explain why no one is falling over themselves to talk about it all over again.
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=51150.msg1253036#msg1253036

Hopefully that will answer your queries. If anything odd about that thread jumps out, ask about that specifically and I'm sure someone will take time to explain it to you.

This post mentions some similar concepts, but it veers off into a different direction than my question. This post attacks an argument style while suggesting that the Earth would look flat regardless if it was round or flat, and criticizes FET prononents for their lack of open mindedness.

My post is asking that same group of people WHY human intuition is being valued to the point of accusing the world around you of conspiring to preserve trivial information for the sake of alleged financial gain (when in reality, it would cost MORE to preserve information on a scale than it would cost to simply use that information to profit from an actual space program and satellites). There's no criticism intended in my post. I'm simply asking a specific viewpoint on a more fundamental level that incorporates philosophical groundwork for observing reality. This is not the same thing that's addressed in the post you linked me to. So I think that my question deserves separate attention.

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Thork

Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2011, 01:10:05 PM »
This post mentions some similar concepts, but it veers off into a different direction ...
All threads do that.

This post attacks an argument style while suggesting that the Earth would look flat regardless if it was round or flat, and criticizes FET prononents for their lack of open mindedness.
Yes, that happens a lot too. :(

My post is asking that same group of people WHY human intuition is being valued to the point of accusing the world around you of conspiring to preserve trivial information for the sake of alleged financial gain (when in reality, it would cost MORE to preserve information on a scale than it would cost to simply use that information to profit from an actual space program and satellites). There's no criticism intended in my post. I'm simply asking a specific viewpoint on a more fundamental level that incorporates philosophical groundwork for observing reality. This is not the same thing that's addressed in the post you linked me to. So I think that my question deserves separate attention.
Then your question is about Zeteticism. It is a form of investigation based on inquiry and was established along with the modern Flat Earth Society by Dr Samuel Rowbotham in 1849.

Quote from: http://naturyl.humanists.net/zetetic.html
A Quick Introduction to Zetetics and Zeteticism

The term 'Zetetic' is formally defined as "one who proceeds by inquiry; a seeker." In modern usage, the term 'inquiry' is understood as 'critical inquiry,' and the zetetic is therefore best considered a 'skeptical seeker.'

Zeteticism, then, is the principle and practice of being a zetetic, a skeptical seeker. In plainer terms, it is an open-minded yet realistic approach to matters of truth, philosophy, and religion. It is based in critical thinking.

In that Zeteticism is a skeptical worldview, it is generally humanistic in its approach. This is to say that since traditional mythologies and ideas are examined critically, the zetetic worldview tends toward secular humanism.

Zeteticism is not dogmatic, nor does it eschew concepts such as spirituality and numinous experience. It is generally open-minded toward most ideas, but it encourages discernment based on logic, reason, and critical thought.

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John Davis

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Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2011, 12:58:19 PM »
Then your question is about Zeteticism. It is a form of investigation based on inquiry and was established along with the modern Flat Earth Society by Dr Samuel Rowbotham in 1849.
What?
Quantum Ab Hoc

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Thork

Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2011, 01:09:06 PM »
It should read Zetetic Astronomy. As the person left, it makes no odds.

However you've been making a few statements yourself this week that deserve a "what?" so I look forward to you explaining them.

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John Davis

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Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2011, 01:10:58 PM »
It should read Zetetic Astronomy. As the person left, it makes no odds.

However you've been making a few statements yourself this week that deserve a "what?" so I look forward to you explaining them.
Sure point me in their direction and I'll answer them as time makes itself available
Quantum Ab Hoc

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Thork

Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2011, 01:18:19 PM »
Well this would be a nice start.

Basically, I believe thats what a flat body looks like through the medium of space.
Questions that leap to mind are

1) How can an infinite earth look finite in the medium of space?
2) What happens when you look at the 'edge of the coin' instead of straight down?
3) Why can we only see half the earth?
4) How is the moon getting behind the earth when it is infinite?
5) Why can we only see the habitable part of earth?
6) Where is the ice wall and why is Antarctica a continent?
7) What is space made of if not a vacuum, that distorts light so much?

I mean just to start.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 01:19:56 PM by Thork »

Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2011, 01:23:31 PM »
And why does the whole system works as if planets (from Mercury to Neptune, including ours) was revolving around the Sun, itself revolving around the center of the galaxy, itself moving away from other gamaxies?
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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John Davis

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Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2011, 01:49:16 PM »
Well this would be a nice start.

Basically, I believe thats what a flat body looks like through the medium of space.
Questions that leap to mind are

1) How can an infinite earth look finite in the medium of space?

2) What happens when you look at the 'edge of the coin' instead of straight down?
3) Why can we only see half the earth?
4) How is the moon getting behind the earth when it is infinite?
5) Why can we only see the habitable part of earth?
6) Where is the ice wall and why is Antarctica a continent?
7) What is space made of if not a vacuum, that distorts light so much?

I mean just to start.
Sounds good.  I'm not sure where some of these questions are coming from (the coin one specifically and the ice wall)  but I'll be happy to answer them.  I'm headed out on errands and will be back later today.

I had thought you were more versed in my released ideas concerning my model, my apologies.  I post a lot less these days it seems so I can see that sorting through thousands of threads to piece together what I think would be a major bother.  I'll have to put more hours in on my wiki page.
Quantum Ab Hoc

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Thork

Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2011, 01:55:12 PM »
To be honest this 'no conspiracy, earth just looks like this' statement has caught me unaware. Of course with the delays to your book, and your recent family commitments your ideas have dropped off the radar a bit.

Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2011, 04:48:29 PM »
8) Why can't we produce a decent FE map?
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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Thork

Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2011, 01:54:14 AM »
8) Why can't we produce a decent FE map?
There are dozens. ???

Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2011, 04:33:01 AM »
Show me just ONE with accurate distances!
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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markjo

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Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2011, 06:44:12 AM »
8) Why can't we produce a decent FE map?
There are dozens. ???

Are there?  As I recall, they are all flat projections globular maps, are they not?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2011, 06:46:39 AM »
Are there?  As I recall, they are all flat projections globular maps, are they not?
Does that make them not-maps? Because if so, I'm afraid our Mercator-based navigation systems are in for some big news.
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

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markjo

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Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2011, 06:55:46 AM »
Are there?  As I recall, they are all flat projections globular maps, are they not?
Does that make them not-maps? Because if so, I'm afraid our Mercator-based navigation systems are in for some big news.
The question was about the existence of FE maps, not flat projections of RE maps.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2011, 11:15:46 PM »
Are there?  As I recall, they are all flat projections globular maps, are they not?
Does that make them not-maps? Because if so, I'm afraid our Mercator-based navigation systems are in for some big news.
The question was about the existence of FE maps, not flat projections of RE maps.

All maps depict flat earths.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2011, 12:28:27 AM »

All maps depict flat earths.

Not true.  A globe is a map.  And it does not depict a flat earth.  Not even one wrapped around a sphere.  The distances are correct on a globe, but not on a flat map.

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Thork

Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2011, 01:11:26 AM »

All maps depict flat earths.

Not true.  A globe is a map.  And it does not depict a flat earth.  Not even one wrapped around a sphere.  The distances are correct on a globe, but not on a flat map.
The distances on a flat map are incorrect? What then is the point in using a map for navigation?

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markjo

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Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2011, 06:52:12 AM »
Are there?  As I recall, they are all flat projections globular maps, are they not?
Does that make them not-maps? Because if so, I'm afraid our Mercator-based navigation systems are in for some big news.
The question was about the existence of FE maps, not flat projections of RE maps.

All maps depict flat earths.

All maps depict the earth on a flat surface.  That does not mean that all maps depict the earth as being flat.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

?

General Disarray

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Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2011, 11:08:07 AM »
All maps depict flat earths.

Even this one?

You don't want to make an enemy of me. I'm very powerful.

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Tausami

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Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2011, 11:24:58 AM »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2011, 11:26:33 AM »
All maps depict the earth on a flat surface.  That does not mean that all maps depict the earth as being flat.

If a map is depicting the earth on a flat surface then it is depicting the earth as being flat.

Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2011, 11:29:50 AM »
But people seing a Mercator's projection with the Behring Straits on both sides of the map will understand that we use a flat map because it is more convenient (often) that a globe.
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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General Disarray

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markjo

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Re: Human intuition as a basis for deciding what's true?
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2011, 07:54:42 PM »
All maps depict the earth on a flat surface.  That does not mean that all maps depict the earth as being flat.

If a map is depicting the earth on a flat surface then it is depicting the earth as being flat.

Then why do Mercator projection maps have scales that look something like this?
http://blogs.esri.com/Support/blogs/mappingcenter/archive/2007/08/06/choosing-the-best-way-to-indicate-map-scale.aspx


If the earth really is flat, then Mercator projection maps wouldn't need scales that change with latitude, would they?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.