Occupy Wall Street

Who said anything about the government doing it?  As a matter of fact I want the government as far away from my finances as possible. I want We The People to do it.

It starts with you.  It starts with us.  We can change this economy. 

http://www.thegreatrecovery.com/home/

What's God's way of handling money? And how does being cheap help the economy?

EDIT: ah, I see. It's for people who are in debt. I was under the impression it was things everyone should do to help the economy.

What's God's way of handling money? And how does being cheap help the economy?

EDIT: ah, I see. It's for people who are in debt. I was under the impression it was things everyone should do to help the economy.

Do you know how many people in the US have debt?  Do you know how much that effects the economy?

Quote from: Lorddave on November 03, 2011, 02:49:19 PM

The problem is that if we do what Wardogg would have us do, all the people who caused the housing market collapse would be the same people who would be wealthy even after the collapse of the economy.  Essentially: The Bad Guys always win.

What is it I would have us do again?

Not loan money to the Banks.

I prefer no one to have ANY debt at all.  How many of these banks would survive with no interest payments coming into them?

As would we all.
Sadly, it's impossible.  After all, how does one sell products without actually buying them first?

Sadly, it's impossible.  After all, how does one sell products without actually buying them first?

Are you saying there isn't a company out there that sells a product without using loans to purchase those products first? 

Are you saying there isn't a company out there that started without loans and now cannot become a multi-million dollar company?


I can name one for both.  Impossible isn't the word I would have used up there.  Difficult, yes.  Challenging, yes.  Impossible, not even close.

It's rare, extremely.

For example, if wanted to start a junk yard company from scratch, I would probably need about 1 million in capital to get the land, equipment, permits, and staff to run it.

It does happen, it can happen.  Internet companies come to mind, I don't think Zuckerberg had to get a loan to start facebook did he?

Quote from: Tausami on November 03, 2011, 04:33:17 PM

What's God's way of handling money? And how does being cheap help the economy?

EDIT: ah, I see. It's for people who are in debt. I was under the impression it was things everyone should do to help the economy.

Do you know how many people in the US have debt?  Do you know how much that effects the economy?

Yeah, it's the only thing powering the economy. Much as you might want to live as a little suburban self-sustaining hermit, debt is an important way of greasing the wheels of business and a huge section of the economy depends on it. The only unconditionally bad debt is "bad debt", and if you've got that you're already in no position to fix matters.

Who said anything about the government doing it?  As a matter of fact I want the government as far away from my finances as possible. I want We The People to do it.

It starts with you.  It starts with us.  We can change this economy. 

http://www.thegreatrecovery.com/home/

Apparently it starts with God according to that website.  Also, how does one person change an entire economy?  That website is full of itself.

Yeah, it's the only thing powering the economy. Much as you might want to live as a little suburban self-sustaining hermit, debt is an important way of greasing the wheels of business and a huge section of the economy depends on it. The only unconditionally bad debt is "bad debt", and if you've got that you're already in no position to fix matters.

Yeah, I guess you are right.  Debts are so empowering, as this company found out recently.  I bet you if they didn't have any debts they wouldn't be filing for Chapter 11 protection.  Any takers?  There in lies the problem though.  Why worry about debts when you can just file for bankruptcy and continue to operate as normal.  Makes me sick actually.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/11/04/news/companies/dippin_dots_bankruptcy/?hpt=hp_t2


On a side note.  Finally something I can agree with and can get behind on the OWS front.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/11/03/pf/move_your_money_day/index.htm?iid=Lead

Also, how does one person change an entire economy?  That website is full of itself.

Because you tell 2 friends and then they tell 2 friends and then they tell 2 friends etc, etc, and so on and so on.

Quote from: General Douchebag on November 04, 2011, 09:38:11 AM

Yeah, it's the only thing powering the economy. Much as you might want to live as a little suburban self-sustaining hermit, debt is an important way of greasing the wheels of business and a huge section of the economy depends on it. The only unconditionally bad debt is "bad debt", and if you've got that you're already in no position to fix matters.

Yeah, I guess you are right.  Debts are so empowering, as this company found out recently.  I bet you if they didn't have any debts they wouldn't be filing for Chapter 11 protection.  Any takers?  There in lies the problem though.  Why worry about debts when you can just file for bankruptcy and continue to operate as normal.  Makes me sick actually.

This is how I know you don't do research. "Bad debt" is a very specific thing, hence the inverted commas, and is exactly what that article is about.

Quote from: Lorddave on November 03, 2011, 04:57:43 PM

Sadly, it's impossible.  After all, how does one sell products without actually buying them first?

Are you saying there isn't a company out there that sells a product without using loans to purchase those products first? 

Are you saying there isn't a company out there that started without loans and now cannot become a multi-million dollar company?


I can name one for both.  Impossible isn't the word I would have used up there.  Difficult, yes.  Challenging, yes.  Impossible, not even close.

I'm saying that one needs to buy the product (or it's components) before you can sell it.  Depending on what you're selling that's either very easy or requires a loan.
Ex:
If I sell hand knitted scarves, the raw materials are cheap and if I don't have to work, so is my time.  Easy.  So long as my demand is so low that I can keep up with orders.
If I want to start a car dealership, however, I would need either a LOT of capital up front without any need to return said capital (these don't exist except in personal fortunes BTW) OR I get a business loan.

Even if I want to start up a Mom and Pops general store, exactly how am I going to start off unless I either have a personal fortune to buy a building and goods to sell (plus insurance, utilities, etc...) OR I get people to invest in it, which will almost always require me to pay them back (giving money to a For Profit business for free is stupid) OR I get a loan.

The biggest exceptions are internet/software based companies that require only one product with almost no start-up costs to make it big.  See: Google, Microsoft, Apple, Facebook, etc....

This is how I know you don't do research. "Bad debt" is a very specific thing, hence the inverted commas, and is exactly what that article is about.

Would you consider a mortgage bad debt?  I have done extensive research....100% of foreclosures happen on homes with a mortgage.





Everyone is ignoring my OWS support?  Odd.

Quote from: General Douchebag on November 05, 2011, 06:46:51 AM

This is how I know you don't do research. "Bad debt" is a very specific thing, hence the inverted commas, and is exactly what that article is about.

Would you consider a mortgage bad debt?  I have done extensive research....100% of foreclosures happen on homes with a mortgage.





Everyone is ignoring my OWS support?  Odd.

And 100% of people who drink more than 3 pints of water a day die. 

And I hadn't noticed it, TBH. I'll find where you mentioned it and respond.

Yay, Wardogg joined OWS! 

I know this is only a drop in the bucket, but still makes me happy. http://abcnews.go.com/Business/bank-transfer-day-marches-planned-banks-nationwide/story?id=14889051

At least 650,000 people have already switched to credit unions since Sept. 29, according to the Credit Union National Association, after Bank of America announced plans to charge a $5 debit card purchase fee next year. The bank announced Tuesday it was canceling the fee.

The association estimates that credit unions have added $4.5 billion in new savings accounts.

"More than four in every five credit unions experiencing growth since Sept. 29 attributed the growth to consumer reaction to new fees imposed by banks, or a combination of consumer reactions to the new bank fees plus the social media-inspired Bank Transfer Day," the association said in a statement.

Occupy Wall Street and Bank Transfer Day may have some ideas in common, but they're two separate things.  And I think we all ought to do our part to keep it that way, instead of conflating them together (like you're doing right now ).  No matter what you think of OWS, it carries a lot of controversial baggage, and its public perception has been badly damaged by the antics of some of its members.  Bank Transfer Day, however, is simply a boycott, one of the oldest, most established, and historically successful forms of protesting.  It has a much better chance of getting some real reform under way if it distances itself from OWS.

I've been a member of a credit union for over 10 years.   I like not having a monthly fee for having a bank.

Would you consider a mortgage bad debt?

In the vast majority of cases, no. Please look up the very specific definition of "bad debt" as a phrase, not just as debt which you think was a poor decision.

100% of foreclosures happen on homes with a mortgage.

100% of people who lost their jobs previously had one.
100% of those foreclosed upon owned their own homes.
0% of criminals lost their jobs.

Obviously, the answer is to burgle the shit out of the rich bankwankers then squat in their houses. After all, having a proper job and your own home is a recipe for disaster.

I was being facetious GD.  Calm down.


I think all debt is bad debt.  And I also believe almost all debt can be avoided.  And live that way as well. 

A 15yr mortgage is the only example of an acceptable debt.   Only for your primary residence.  Over the life of the mortgage the land will not depreciate in value.  The same could not be said about any other object.   Any thing else should be purchased with cash.

A 15yr mortgage is the only example of an acceptable debt.   

And yet starting a business, which requires the purchase of similar space, is not.
Are you sure it's acceptable debt because it's economically sound or because it's the one you can't avoid?

Over the life of the mortgage the land will not depreciate in value. 

False. Anything can depreciate in value. Ex.
You buy land in a town that is planning on putting in a sewer system. 2 years later the plan is scrapped. Your land just dropped in value. True story, happened to my parents.
Or you have farmland that, over time, becomes exhausted and isn't able to grow food anymore.
Or some ecological disaster due to the building of a factory nearby/disaster at factory nearby.

Land goes down in price too.

The same could not be said about any other object.   

Collectables generally go up in value, provided that they are kept in good condition.
Resources go up in value since humans suck as conservation. (see oil)
Gold goes up in value all the time.
Your health is always valuable and only goes up in value as your age increases and your ability to cope with health problems decreases.

Any thing else should be purchased with cash.

Does that include medical care?  Do you pay the full hospital bill of say... Your child's birth with   cash up front?

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on November 06, 2011, 05:08:36 AM

A 15yr mortgage is the only example of an acceptable debt.   

And yet starting a business, which requires the purchase of similar space, is not.
Are you sure it's acceptable debt because it's economically sound or because it's the one you can't avoid?

The thing you forgot to factor in was risk.  The risk of a business failing is far greater than the risk that land value will go down.  Once you factor in risk you can see that a home mortgage is an acceptable risk where as a business you have no idea if it will succeed is not.

Quote

Over the life of the mortgage the land will not depreciate in value. 

False. Anything can depreciate in value. Ex.
You buy land in a town that is planning on putting in a sewer system. 2 years later the plan is scrapped. Your land just dropped in value. True story, happened to my parents.
Or you have farmland that, over time, becomes exhausted and isn't able to grow food anymore.
Or some ecological disaster due to the building of a factory nearby/disaster at factory nearby.

Land goes down in price too.

See above

Quote

The same could not be said about any other object.   

Collectables generally go up in value, provided that they are kept in good condition.
Resources go up in value since humans suck as conservation. (see oil)
Gold goes up in value all the time.
Your health is always valuable and only goes up in value as your age increases and your ability to cope with health problems decreases.

The rate of return on collectables is not good enough to warrant a loan to purchase them. 

Gold is never a good LONG term investment.  All signs point to it being a bubble.  Ive been waiting for it to pop.

Quote

Any thing else should be purchased with cash.

Does that include medical care?  Do you pay the full hospital bill of say... Your child's birth with   cash up front?

That's what insurance is for?  Your statement doesn't even make sense.  Would I take out a loan for medical insurance?  No.

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 06:31:30 AM

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on November 06, 2011, 05:08:36 AM

A 15yr mortgage is the only example of an acceptable debt.   

And yet starting a business, which requires the purchase of similar space, is not.
Are you sure it's acceptable debt because it's economically sound or because it's the one you can't avoid?

The thing you forgot to factor in was risk.  The risk of a business failing is far greater than the risk that land value will go down.  Once you factor in risk you can see that a home mortgage is an acceptable risk where as a business you have no idea if it will succeed is not.

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 06:31:30 AM

Quote

Over the life of the mortgage the land will not depreciate in value. 

False. Anything can depreciate in value. Ex.
You buy land in a town that is planning on putting in a sewer system. 2 years later the plan is scrapped. Your land just dropped in value. True story, happened to my parents.
Or you have farmland that, over time, becomes exhausted and isn't able to grow food anymore.
Or some ecological disaster due to the building of a factory nearby/disaster at factory nearby.

Land goes down in price too.

See above

Irrelevant.  If you buy a house, why would you care what it's land value was?  Are you trying to turn a profit like a banker selling bad mortgages? If the value of your home isn't that "you can live in it" then it's a luxury and by your own standards should not be purchased with a loan.

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 06:31:30 AM

Quote

The same could not be said about any other object.   

Collectables generally go up in value, provided that they are kept in good condition.
Resources go up in value since humans suck as conservation. (see oil)
Gold goes up in value all the time.
Your health is always valuable and only goes up in value as your age increases and your ability to cope with health problems decreases.

The rate of return on collectables is not good enough to warrant a loan to purchase them. 

Depends on the collectable and age.
Most collectables don't require a loan to purchase anyway so talking about a loan is irrelevant.  I like how you ignored the other stuff.

Gold is never a good LONG term investment.  All signs point to it being a bubble.  Ive been waiting for it to pop.

http://goldprice.org/charts/history/gold_all_data_o_usd.png
True, but it's fairly stable historically.  Aside from the sudden jump in the early 2000s.

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 06:31:30 AM

Quote

Any thing else should be purchased with cash.

Does that include medical care?  Do you pay the full hospital bill of say... Your child's birth with   cash up front?

That's what insurance is for?  Your statement doesn't even make sense.  Would I take out a loan for medical insurance?  No.

Medical insurance?  I'm not talking about that.  I'm talking about those without medical insurance.  Unless you feel that everyone in America should have medical insurance.

Though now that I think about it, insurance is a lot like a loan for medical procedures.  You pay money for an insurance company to give you money later.  The only difference is that you can cancel your insurance after they pay you.  Of course that makes it more expensive to have insurance later.

I was being facetious GD.  Calm down.

As was I, no worries.

I think all debt is bad debt.

Google the phrase "bad debt". If not for "bad debt", there would have been no economic disaster to speak of in '08, or '29, or ever.

I agree with the spirit that the protests are being made in.

However the protestors would achieve more by starting up competing businesses which don't utilise these underhanded practices than performing a protest which will not be listened to by those who they are targeted at.

I agree with the spirit that the protests are being made in.

However the protestors would achieve more by starting up competing businesses which don't utilise these underhanded practices than performing a protest which will not be listened to by those who they are targeted at.

They would achieve nothing by doing that because such a business would not prosper, which is the whole point.

Quote from: Demouse on November 06, 2011, 11:03:38 PM

I agree with the spirit that the protests are being made in.

However the protestors would achieve more by starting up competing businesses which don't utilise these underhanded practices than performing a protest which will not be listened to by those who they are targeted at.

They would achieve nothing by doing that because such a business would not prosper, which is the whole point.

It would if there were enough people willing to make such a corperation.

So like old-fashioned co-operatives?

In the UK, the Co-op movement is doing all right for itself.

Earlier today I was listening to WZLX in my car, and some song requests came in from some Occupy Boston members, which they said they were also playing publicly while they protested.  One of the songs they asked for was "Revolution" from The Beatles.  Quite frankly, I almost couldn't believe it.  And they aren't alone - from what I can see on the Internet, plenty of "Occupy X" members and organizations like to play the song publicly as well, make slide shows of their protests set to the song, etc., as if the song somehow represents them and supports their case.  Wow.

Are they also carrying pictures of chairman Mao?

Are they also carrying pictures of chairman Mao?

Considering the diversity of the protesters, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were.

They just hear the first few lines and ignore the other stuff, I'm sure. Or maybe they're all hipsters and they're trying to be ironic.