Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA

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John Davis

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Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« on: September 23, 2011, 08:25:45 AM »
I haven't exmined it yet in enough detail, however  I wanted the opinion of those that actually believe in the Cambridge model (and heck anyone else too) and to just open it up to discussion.

By taking the hopefully now familiar concept of an infinite plane (with infinite mass and a finite gravitational pull) we turn our eyes to the interesting question:

What would happen if an infinite plane was below our disk?

Specifically, looking at work by scientists like Forward, lets suppose this infinite plane is made of exotic matter, namely that with negative mass.  Of course this is also assuming a level of gravitational shielding or bow shock effect around the surface of terra.  Looking at NASA's work concerning the diameteric drive with Forward (in BPPP) or simply by plugging in the appropriate math into Gauss's law we finally have a reasonable source for the acceleration of the Earth in the Cambridge model.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 12:30:56 PM by John Davis »
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Crustinator

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2011, 11:34:56 AM »
The Davis Plane is not an acceptable explanation of UA and has been rejected by the majority of FE Believers. The earth is demonstrably accelerating at 9.8m/s2 through space. Please read ENaG.

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thefireproofmatch

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2011, 11:43:52 AM »
we're expected to throw up our hands and just BELIEVE.

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Tausami

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2011, 12:22:13 PM »
lets suppose
Unzetetic alert!

You'll notice that he didn't state as a fact, but rather as a possibility. The purpose of our rather unzetetic theories and rationalities are to show that FE is physically possible.

And John, that actually makes a lot of sense to me. I still stand by the Aetheric Wind model, simply because it is my own, but this seems to be a working alternative to it.

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John Davis

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2011, 12:29:58 PM »
The Davis Plane is not an acceptable explanation of UA and has been rejected by the majority of FE Believers. The earth is demonstrably accelerating at 9.8m/s2 through space. Please read ENaG.
This is the first time I've mentioned the Davis Plane.

This is an explanation of why the earth is accelerating. 

Please read my post.

lets suppose
Unzetetic alert!

You'll notice that he didn't state as a fact, but rather as a possibility. The purpose of our rather unzetetic theories and rationalities are to show that FE is physically possible.

And John, that actually makes a lot of sense to me. I still stand by the Aetheric Wind model, simply because it is my own, but this seems to be a working alternative to it.
I'll have to look at your aetheric wind model.   Thanks!

lets suppose
Unzetetic alert!
I am not a zeteticist, but a neozeteticist.  Also, like Tausami pointed out, I did not state anything as fact.
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Tausami

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2011, 12:35:00 PM »
lets suppose
Unzetetic alert!

You'll notice that he didn't state as a fact, but rather as a possibility. The purpose of our rather unzetetic theories and rationalities are to show that FE is physically possible.

And John, that actually makes a lot of sense to me. I still stand by the Aetheric Wind model, simply because it is my own, but this seems to be a working alternative to it.
I'll have to look at your aetheric wind model.

It's a work in progress, but I have some information about it in my generic response thread.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=50238.0
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 05:18:38 PM by Tausami »

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Crustinator

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2011, 05:06:39 PM »
Please read my post.

I have read your post. It contains nothing but the dangerous musings of a half mad LUNAtic intent on corrupting innocent Christian minds.

People would do better to look to their Bible for answers.

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trig

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2011, 08:44:30 AM »
Such a huge leap, and for nothing.

Your flat disk will, again, crumple into a sphere because you still have gravity, or gravitational pull. A disk of some 40000 km diameter and some 1000 km or more of height has more than enough matter to convert itself into a sphere by the effect of its own weight, even if it was made of steel. The maths for this have been done a few times in this forum.

But this is usual in this forum: to solve one problem you create ten. And the new ones are even more intractable than the original. And to get there you need negative mass!

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Tausami

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2011, 08:47:44 AM »
Or we could avoid the topic of negative mass and say that it is above the disk.

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James

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2011, 09:16:24 AM »
I am concerned that there is still no evidence that gravity actually exists.  I am happy to accept that the Earth is of infinite horizontal extent and accelerates upwards at 9.8m/s^2.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Hazbollah

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2011, 09:30:56 AM »
Here's an idea: The earth (or the part of it we are on) is flat, but the overall shape is that of an oblate spheroid. So the earth is like a squashed lump of mozzarella. Debunk this as you will, but it's just an idea.
             
                     
Always check your tackle- Caerphilly school of Health. If I see an innuendo in my post, I'll be sure to whip it out.

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John Davis

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2011, 08:59:15 AM »
Or we could avoid the topic of negative mass and say that it is above the disk.
This doesn't work.  What will be shielding the surface of the earth from gravitation?

Your flat disk will, again, crumple into a sphere because you still have gravity, or gravitational pull. A disk of some 40000 km diameter and some 1000 km or more of height has more than enough matter to convert itself into a sphere by the effect of its own weight, even if it was made of steel. The maths for this have been done a few times in this forum.
Incorrect.  A flat disk of infinite horizontal dimensions will not crumple into a sphere.  The math for this has been done a few times on this forum.
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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2011, 09:42:54 AM »
Or we could avoid the topic of negative mass and say that it is above the disk.
This doesn't work.  What will be shielding the surface of the earth from gravitation?

Your flat disk will, again, crumple into a sphere because you still have gravity, or gravitational pull. A disk of some 40000 km diameter and some 1000 km or more of height has more than enough matter to convert itself into a sphere by the effect of its own weight, even if it was made of steel. The maths for this have been done a few times in this forum.
Incorrect.  A flat disk of infinite horizontal dimensions will not crumple into a sphere.  The math for this has been done a few times on this forum.

A few questions. If you're going to use gravity in your theory, you should know that mass doesn't shield other things from gravity, it causes gravity. The mathematics have been done for a perfectly flat infinite plane. As the Earth, if it were actually flat, is not perfectly flat, tidal forces would rip it apart and it would collapse on itself.
You, sir, can't comprehend the idea of bottoms.

Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2011, 11:23:24 PM »
Dear John,
I am not going to get into a debate here, but if you would like some information please email me. There is a tremendous amount of evidence gravity exists, it is astounding that people continue to make this claim. I will be more then happy to provide scientifically reviewed literature on the topic and can give pages of quantified measured correlation with the gravitational model. Even if you refuse to acknowledge gravity i can demonstrate why an infinitely wide disk can not be uniformly accelerating and why if this was allowed it would not correlate with the observed effects of gravity on a local scale. i am aware of how difficult changing ones belief structure can be but I will gladly provide explanations that you can feel free to attempt counter claims on.

Anthony Heath
Undisclosed Melbourne University, department on physics.

Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2011, 11:24:14 PM »
I apologise, this post was directed at James, although i will be happy to discuss material with you also John :)

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trig

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2011, 04:37:50 AM »
Your flat disk will, again, crumple into a sphere because you still have gravity, or gravitational pull. A disk of some 40000 km diameter and some 1000 km or more of height has more than enough matter to convert itself into a sphere by the effect of its own weight, even if it was made of steel. The maths for this have been done a few times in this forum.
Incorrect.  A flat disk of infinite horizontal dimensions will not crumple into a sphere.  The math for this has been done a few times on this forum.
Thank you for your explanation. When you say
Quote
What would happen if an infinite plane was below our disk?
our disk is not a disk, but another infinite plane. But please be precise when you speak.

Now we have two infinite planes instead of one and negative mass, and no additional questions answered. Lets agree on one thing: two infinite, parallel planes are essentially the same as one plane made of layers of different materials. It gives an incomplete answer to the gravitational pull we feel, and no answers to any other questions. And you do not even tell us what answers your two infinite planes answer that the original one did not.

Just another word game. If the model is more complex then people might be a little bit more intimidated to call it hogwash.

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James

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2011, 05:52:51 AM »
Dear Mr Heath,

There is no need to conduct our scientific interchange under the clandestine cover of e-mails.  I am more than happy to hear your claims on the forum here, where the tribunal of public scrutiny will engender an attitude of the truth.  I am particularly interested to know why an infinitely wide disc cannot uniformly accelerate, as this is manifestly what is occurring at present in the universe.

I invite you to release an object from your hand; you will see the entire cosmos rise at a steady acceleration to meet it.  I appreciate that you may believe some mystic force to be at work, that the object is moving down from your hand under the impetus of this force.  But I beseech you to consider that this is the bias of your perspective, as you yourself are being accelerated upward by the great heaving Earth beneath us.  I ask you - whither this mystical force?  Have you ever observed a graviton, the explanatory panacea of the globularist account of physics?  I must say that the Earth moving in accordance with the forces we understand from our very lives requires a good deal less explanation than objects being mystically drawn to the Earth by an unseen force, transmitted by an unseen particle, a force which you presumably claim is operative across every cubic centimetre of the universe. I am eager to hear your reasons for believing such a story.

Best wishes,
James MacIntyre
Flat Earth Society, department of Palaeontology and Moon Studies
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2011, 06:07:35 AM »
Dear Mr Heath,

There is no need to conduct our scientific interchange under the clandestine cover of e-mails.  I am more than happy to hear your claims on the forum here, where the tribunal of public scrutiny will engender an attitude of the truth.  I am particularly interested to know why an infinitely wide disc cannot uniformly accelerate, as this is manifestly what is occurring at present in the universe.

I invite you to release an object from your hand; you will see the entire cosmos rise at a steady acceleration to meet it.  I appreciate that you may believe some mystic force to be at work, that the object is moving down from your hand under the impetus of this force.  But I beseech you to consider that this is the bias of your perspective, as you yourself are being accelerated upward by the great heaving Earth beneath us.  I ask you - whither this mystical force?  Have you ever observed a graviton, the explanatory panacea of the globularist account of physics?  I must say that the Earth moving in accordance with the forces we understand from our very lives requires a good deal less explanation than objects being mystically drawn to the Earth by an unseen force, transmitted by an unseen particle, a force which you presumably claim is operative across every cubic centimetre of the universe. I am eager to hear your reasons for believing such a story.

Best wishes,
James MacIntyre
Flat Earth Society, department of Palaeontology and Moon Studies

James,

I think that if you really looked at the two theories, you will see that both do have holes that can not be explained.  For example, you say that the Earth is accelerating upwards but give no explanation as to why.  I have read many theories that try to explain this, but all fall far from providing any evidence, other than the effects of this acceleration guesses as to why this is happening.  The round Earthers also give an explanation, in the form of gravity.  They also can not give an explanation as to why this effect takes place, for certain.  They simply say that, "things attract each other".

My point is that you seem to be trying to disprove gravity as being a "Mystical Force" that can not be explained, and therefore not true.  Yet, your "Earth Acceleration" theory also can not be explained or proven. 

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James

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2011, 06:10:45 AM »
It most certainly can be explained; modern science suggests that it is occurring because of the Big Bang. Once we abandon the globularist confusions about the nature of "up", we arrive at a very simple fact that the Big Bang was monodirectional. It went up. And it is still going up.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2011, 08:05:01 AM »
It most certainly can be explained; modern science suggests that it is occurring because of the Big Bang. Once we abandon the globularist confusions about the nature of "up", we arrive at a very simple fact that the Big Bang was monodirectional. It went up. And it is still going up.

How can an explosion be monodirectional?  I have used shape charges in the military, and yes, you can focus a charge in a certain direction, but that does not mean that the entire explosion happens in that direction.  Also, the energy dissipates as you move away from the epicenter of the explosion.  We are we supposedly moving much faster now than we were when the big bang happened, much less half way between the present time and the time that the big bang occurred?

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James

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2011, 08:41:41 AM »
We are not moving at a speed, we are accelerating.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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John Davis

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2011, 08:42:09 AM »
It most certainly can be explained; modern science suggests that it is occurring because of the Big Bang. Once we abandon the globularist confusions about the nature of "up", we arrive at a very simple fact that the Big Bang was monodirectional. It went up. And it is still going up.

How can an explosion be monodirectional?
Remind me again where "explosions" even come into the picture?  We are talking about the big bang.  Despite its humourous name, it is not referring to a literal bang or explosion.
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Son of Orospu

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2011, 08:48:55 AM »
It most certainly can be explained; modern science suggests that it is occurring because of the Big Bang. Once we abandon the globularist confusions about the nature of "up", we arrive at a very simple fact that the Big Bang was monodirectional. It went up. And it is still going up.

How can an explosion be monodirectional?
Remind me again where "explosions" even come into the picture?  We are talking about the big bang.  Despite its humourous name, it is not referring to a literal bang or explosion.

So, you are saying that the Big Bang did occur, but the energy was only focused in a narrow beam that happened to point at the Earth, and despite known physics, constantly increases in acceleration?  Is there any evidence for this, other that it must be true for the flat Earth to exist?

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2011, 09:07:00 AM »
Would I be correct in assuming, that regardless of the distance between the two planes, that forces produced between them will not diminish?

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2011, 09:11:59 AM »
We are not moving at a speed, we are accelerating.

The definition for acceleration is a change in speed relative to time.  You have already implied that speed does not exist.  Does time not exist as well?  What is your definition of acceleration if it is not the same as the one I provided?

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2011, 09:49:18 AM »
You have already implied that speed does not exist.
What?
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

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trig

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2011, 10:53:57 AM »
We are not moving at a speed, we are accelerating.
The fact that our speed changes constantly does not imply that "we are not moving at a speed". You have to improve your physics skills, or choose another subject to debate. Even Primary students understand speed.

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John Davis

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2011, 02:08:26 PM »
Your flat disk will, again, crumple into a sphere because you still have gravity, or gravitational pull. A disk of some 40000 km diameter and some 1000 km or more of height has more than enough matter to convert itself into a sphere by the effect of its own weight, even if it was made of steel. The maths for this have been done a few times in this forum.
Incorrect.  A flat disk of infinite horizontal dimensions will not crumple into a sphere.  The math for this has been done a few times on this forum.
Thank you for your explanation. When you say
Quote
What would happen if an infinite plane was below our disk?
our disk is not a disk, but another infinite plane. But please be precise when you speak.

Now we have two infinite planes instead of one and negative mass, and no additional questions answered. Lets agree on one thing: two infinite, parallel planes are essentially the same as one plane made of layers of different materials. It gives an incomplete answer to the gravitational pull we feel, and no answers to any other questions. And you do not even tell us what answers your two infinite planes answer that the original one did not.

Just another word game. If the model is more complex then people might be a little bit more intimidated to call it hogwash.
The questions answered should be extremely obvious, especially since one of them is in the thread subject and the others are obvious with even cursory knowledge of the Cambridge model.  I'd hate for you to have to think, however, so I'll leave it at rest as far as you are concerned.  If anyone has any legitimate comments, concerns, or arguments please feel free however to continue this discussion.
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markjo

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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2011, 02:35:56 PM »
You have already implied that speed does not exist.
What?

Lurk moar:
I do not believe in speed. There is no such thing. Drunken physicists have been measuring an imaginary quantity. The only comprehensible measure of movement is acceleration.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Re: Davis Plane: Possible explanation of UA
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2011, 02:51:14 PM »
If the other plane is moving the Earth, what is moving the plane?
You, sir, can't comprehend the idea of bottoms.