Lack of a distance preserving FE map.

  • 61 Replies
  • 13048 Views
?

momentia

  • 425
  • Light abhors a straight line.
Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« on: September 09, 2011, 10:38:27 AM »
Any FE map will have different distances than the RE map at points due to the lack of a distance preserving map (function) from a Geoid (kind of like a sphere) to a plane.

For example, take the FAQ map. Distances in the southern hemisphere are distorted severely, as shown many times before. So I will ignore it.

Or, take Rowbotham's map with a smaller radius (8402 miles)
on Rowbotham's map, distances at northern latitudes are too small.
Lets say New York to Southampton, using Rowbotham's distance of 3476 miles.

"New York to Southampton 2980[nautical miles] = 3476[statute miles]"
http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za22.htm

Now according to this map and known latitude and longitude, the distance should be:
>Thork distance: 2472 mi
or about a thousand miles short.

Also, for reference, i get:
>RE distance: 3422 mi


*

PizzaPlanet

  • 12224
  • Now available in stereo
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

?

momentia

  • 425
  • Light abhors a straight line.
Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2011, 09:33:55 PM »
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=44906.0
First of all, Google maps is a mercator projection. As I said, any flat map of the round earth will inevitably contain distortion errors. Get a globe or use Google Earth (a virtual globe) to get a better representation of the round earth.

Second, a meter here is a meter near the south pole (or ice wall if you want to use the FE model.) A meter stick looks the same at the lower latitudes as it does at the higher latitudes. It does not matter the angle that the sun's light comes in at. Imagine a glass building near the ice wall. It would look the same during the day, or during the night with artificial light.

Unless you are saying that the measurable (and thus actual) circumference of the earth decreases as its radius increases past the equator. (As it would have to have the same distances as on RE.) This would require space to bend a lot, in a non-natural way, but I would be interested if this is what you think.

Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2011, 11:41:59 AM »
Simply take any site of flights booking and any site giving you distances and check some journeys, especially in the southern hemisphere.

You're bound to see that the map of FE provided simply doesn't match with the reality.

And for the umpteenth time: is there a distance-accurate map of the FE ?
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

?

Megaman

  • 176
  • Winning all the forums
Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2012, 10:28:33 PM »
Simply take any site of flights booking and any site giving you distances and check some journeys, especially in the southern hemisphere.

You're bound to see that the map of FE provided simply doesn't match with the reality.

And for the umpteenth time: is there a distance-accurate map of the FE ?

No. FE supporters are entirely without proof. They have ideas about how things work but few ever try to test them and even then, none do so in a skeptical manner. They are so sure of their position that it skews their experiments and they are not concerned with verifying their beliefs with calculation. 

?

BoatswainsMate

  • 675
  • You just been Tom Bishop'ed
Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2012, 10:42:49 PM »
I have said this many times and I will say it again. You cannot navigate using flat earth theory. It just wont work. The directions and distances to places are not in line with charts used today. Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection. If the Earth was indeed flat I would need a completely different set of charts that are non mercator projection. making a chart of a flat Earth would be much easier then making a chart of a spherical Earth.

I navigate with great accuracy using charts based on RET so what does that show me? well that shows me the Earth is round, otherwise how would I be getting to my waypoints on time using round Earth navigational methods if the Earth was flat?

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17541
Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2012, 07:35:16 AM »
Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection.

So you admit that it's possible to navigate using a flat map?

Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2012, 07:46:56 AM »
I have said this many times and I will say it again. You cannot navigate using flat earth theory. It just wont work. The directions and distances to places are not in line with charts used today. Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection. If the Earth was indeed flat I would need a completely different set of charts that are non mercator projection. making a chart of a flat Earth would be much easier then making a chart of a spherical Earth.

I navigate with great accuracy using charts based on RET so what does that show me? well that shows me the Earth is round, otherwise how would I be getting to my waypoints on time using round Earth navigational methods if the Earth was flat?

I'm curious about the tools you use to navigate.  Do you only use real, physical maps, or is there also a digital map to consult?
Also, the people on your websites are specifically framing their claims, not to learn the truth of the matter, but because they want to "debunk" Apollo Hoax claims --

?

Megaman

  • 176
  • Winning all the forums
Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2012, 10:55:24 AM »
Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection.

So you admit that it's possible to navigate using a flat map?

Wow. Tell me you're not serious Tom.

Did you read the post?

Op is concerned with FE's inability to produce a map that accurately represents real world measurements.

It's as if you don't
 even understand what's being discussed.

No wonder you believe the writings of Rowbotham.
 

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 39572
Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2012, 02:22:48 PM »
Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection.

So you admit that it's possible to navigate using a flat map?

When that flat map is based on round earth geometry and geography, then yes.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

?

BoatswainsMate

  • 675
  • You just been Tom Bishop'ed
Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2012, 08:38:40 PM »
Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection.

So you admit that it's possible to navigate using a flat map?

This shows how little you know about modern navigation. Good job, Tom you have just showed how dumb you are.

?

BoatswainsMate

  • 675
  • You just been Tom Bishop'ed
Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2012, 08:44:23 PM »
I have said this many times and I will say it again. You cannot navigate using flat earth theory. It just wont work. The directions and distances to places are not in line with charts used today. Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection. If the Earth was indeed flat I would need a completely different set of charts that are non mercator projection. making a chart of a flat Earth would be much easier then making a chart of a spherical Earth.

I navigate with great accuracy using charts based on RET so what does that show me? well that shows me the Earth is round, otherwise how would I be getting to my waypoints on time using round Earth navigational methods if the Earth was flat?

I'm curious about the tools you use to navigate.  Do you only use real, physical maps, or is there also a digital map to consult?

There are three main ways to navigate in the modern world. They go by primary,secondary,tertiary. Basically electronic navigation is always your primary and most programs have some very nice features that make navigation very easy. Paper chart navigation is always your secondary and should always be used to double check your electronic chart. IF shit hits the fan and your electronics go out then you have to switch to celestial navigation, basically old school where you have no GPS you are using sun lines to get a fix and hoping that it is not a cloudy night so that you can see every important star or planet.

Tools used are basically the same as the ones used throughout history. Wheems ruler, compass, pencil, sextant, chart, and some form of a bearing indicator.

Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2012, 07:08:41 PM »
Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection.

So you admit that it's possible to navigate using a flat map?

If people were to try to navigate with a flat map then navigation would be impossible. Distance is wrong, Circumnavigation would be near impossible unless you feel like turning completely around and following Antarctica all the way to Australia, seeing as the only way to find your way to the other side of the globe via a flat map is to follow Antarctica (or an ice wall. Whatever you want to call it). According to the FAQ, a compass doesn't work and would only confuse the issue.... yeah.
If subjectivity is the proof of a theory, then subjectivity is also the proof of another.

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17541
Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2012, 09:48:04 AM »
Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection.

So you admit that it's possible to navigate using a flat map?

If people were to try to navigate with a flat map then navigation would be impossible.

I was just told that people navigate with flat maps every day.

?

burt

  • 849
Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2012, 10:13:02 AM »
Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection.

So you admit that it's possible to navigate using a flat map?

If people were to try to navigate with a flat map then navigation would be impossible.

I was just told that people navigate with flat maps every day.

you are not wrong, you are just not taking into consideration the system of navigation as a whole.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 39572
Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2012, 10:40:34 AM »
Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection.

So you admit that it's possible to navigate using a flat map?

If people were to try to navigate with a flat map then navigation would be impossible.

I was just told that people navigate with flat maps every day.

Flat maps based on round earth geometry?  Yes.  Flat maps based on flat earth geometry? No.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17541
Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2012, 02:27:51 PM »
Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection.

So you admit that it's possible to navigate using a flat map?

If people were to try to navigate with a flat map then navigation would be impossible.

I was just told that people navigate with flat maps every day.

Flat maps based on round earth geometry?  Yes.  Flat maps based on flat earth geometry? No.

It's no longer round earth geometry if it's flat. There will be distortion.

Therefore these navigators are regularly navigateing with distrorted maps. This renders the argument null.

?

The Knowledge

  • 2391
  • FE'ers don't do experiments. It costs too much.
Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2012, 03:52:07 PM »
I have said this many times and I will say it again. You cannot navigate using flat earth theory. It just wont work. The directions and distances to places are not in line with charts used today. Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection. If the Earth was indeed flat I would need a completely different set of charts that are non mercator projection. making a chart of a flat Earth would be much easier then making a chart of a spherical Earth.

I navigate with great accuracy using charts based on RET so what does that show me? well that shows me the Earth is round, otherwise how would I be getting to my waypoints on time using round Earth navigational methods if the Earth was flat?

I'm curious about the tools you use to navigate.  Do you only use real, physical maps, or is there also a digital map to consult?

There are three main ways to navigate in the modern world. They go by primary,secondary,tertiary. Basically electronic navigation is always your primary and most programs have some very nice features that make navigation very easy. Paper chart navigation is always your secondary and should always be used to double check your electronic chart. IF shit hits the fan and your electronics go out then you have to switch to celestial navigation, basically old school where you have no GPS you are using sun lines to get a fix and hoping that it is not a cloudy night so that you can see every important star or planet.

Tools used are basically the same as the ones used throughout history. Wheems ruler, compass, pencil, sextant, chart, and some form of a bearing indicator.

You should check out my "INS disproves FET" thread. There is no better demonstration of the failure of FE'ers to understand navigational principles. Especially Thork.
Watermelon, Rhubarb Rhubarb, no one believes the Earth is Flat, Peas and Carrots,  walla.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 39572
Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2012, 06:44:18 PM »
Therefore these navigators are regularly navigateing with distrorted maps. This renders the argument null.

But the distortion is known, predictable and can be compensated for.  That renders the argument an RE win.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

?

Megaman

  • 176
  • Winning all the forums
Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2012, 08:26:00 PM »
Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection.

So you admit that it's possible to navigate using a flat map?

If people were to try to navigate with a flat map then navigation would be impossible.

I was just told that people navigate with flat maps every day.

Flat maps based on round earth geometry?  Yes.  Flat maps based on flat earth geometry? No.

It's no longer round earth geometry if it's flat. There will be distortion.

Therefore these navigators are regularly navigateing with distrorted maps. This renders the argument null.

Tom,

Please just stop trying. Everyone knows you like to argue about things that you don't understand (like centripetal acceleration or the validity of Rowbotham).

You're arguments are sooo badly thought out and yet you spout them as if you're an infallable source of information.

Proof:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,18929.msg1380518.html#msg1380518



Fact : People navigate with distorted maps

Fact: The distortions are based on and exist because the map makers are assuming the Earth is round

Fact : Using these distorted maps, they are able to accurately reach their destination

By these powers combined, RE is supported.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 08:36:40 PM by Megaman »

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17541
Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2012, 09:18:30 PM »
Tom,

Please just stop trying. Everyone knows you like to argue about things that you don't understand (like centripetal acceleration or the validity of Rowbotham).

You're arguments are sooo badly thought out and yet you spout them as if you're an infallable source of information.

Proof:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,18929.msg1380518.html#msg1380518



Fact : People navigate with distorted maps

Fact: The distortions are based on and exist because the map makers are assuming the Earth is round

Fact : Using these distorted maps, they are able to accurately reach their destination

By these powers combined, RE is supported.

I'm glad you agree that people are navigating with distorted maps, contradicting what was said earlier in this thread.

Perhaps the reason they can navigate with flat maps is because the earth is flat.

?

BoatswainsMate

  • 675
  • You just been Tom Bishop'ed
Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2012, 10:14:13 PM »
Tom,

Please just stop trying. Everyone knows you like to argue about things that you don't understand (like centripetal acceleration or the validity of Rowbotham).

You're arguments are sooo badly thought out and yet you spout them as if you're an infallable source of information.

Proof:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,18929.msg1380518.html#msg1380518



Fact : People navigate with distorted maps

Fact: The distortions are based on and exist because the map makers are assuming the Earth is round

Fact : Using these distorted maps, they are able to accurately reach their destination

By these powers combined, RE is supported.

I'm glad you agree that people are navigating with distorted maps, contradicting what was said earlier in this thread.

Perhaps the reason they can navigate with flat maps is because the earth is flat.

Im sorry, ban me for saying this if you want, but Tom you are fucking retarded. you obviously have no clue as to how charts are made and so on. Fucking retard. And no, I am not mad, just absolutely flabbergasted by Tom's post.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 11:08:27 PM by BoatswainsMate »

?

Megaman

  • 176
  • Winning all the forums
Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2012, 01:33:18 AM »
Tom,

Please just stop trying. Everyone knows you like to argue about things that you don't understand (like centripetal acceleration or the validity of Rowbotham).

You're arguments are sooo badly thought out and yet you spout them as if you're an infallable source of information.

Proof:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,18929.msg1380518.html#msg1380518



Fact : People navigate with distorted maps

Fact: The distortions are based on and exist because the map makers are assuming the Earth is round

Fact : Using these distorted maps, they are able to accurately reach their destination

By these powers combined, RE is supported.

I'm glad you agree that people are navigating with distorted maps, contradicting what was said earlier in this thread.

Perhaps the reason they can navigate with flat maps is because the earth is flat.

Im sorry, ban me for saying this if you want, but Tom you are fucking retarded. you obviously have no clue as to how charts are made and so on. Fucking retard. And no, I am not mad, just absolutely flabbergasted by Tom's post.

^This. I agree with this.

Ban me too.

His post's often don't make logical sense (regarding what is being discussed) and whenever someone points out where he is wrong he just ignores it.

His arguments are worse than ones my 8 year old brother would make.

"Perhaps the reason they can navigate with flat maps is because the earth is flat."

I honestly don't see how you can be this bad at understanding things....

My only conclusion is that you're doing this on purpose just to troll because you're thought process is illogical and you are constantly unable or unwilling to try and defend yourself.

Face it Tom.

You make terrible arguments.

I've pointed it out several times and you have yet to refute it.

You don't even seem to understand the basics that are the foundations of the gibberish you spout.

I sincerely hope you are a troll.





Now back to the topic,

Can someone from FE please explain why they are unable to produce an FE map that accurately represents measured, real world distances?

« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 01:35:17 AM by Megaman »

Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2012, 03:11:18 AM »
Tom,

Please just stop trying. Everyone knows you like to argue about things that you don't understand (like centripetal acceleration or the validity of Rowbotham).

You're arguments are sooo badly thought out and yet you spout them as if you're an infallable source of information.

Proof:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,18929.msg1380518.html#msg1380518



Fact : People navigate with distorted maps

Fact: The distortions are based on and exist because the map makers are assuming the Earth is round

Fact : Using these distorted maps, they are able to accurately reach their destination

By these powers combined, RE is supported.

I'm glad you agree that people are navigating with distorted maps, contradicting what was said earlier in this thread.

Perhaps the reason they can navigate with flat maps is because the earth is flat.

Im sorry, ban me for saying this if you want, but Tom you are fucking retarded. you obviously have no clue as to how charts are made and so on. Fucking retard. And no, I am not mad, just absolutely flabbergasted by Tom's post.

^This. I agree with this.

Ban me too.

His post's often don't make logical sense (regarding what is being discussed) and whenever someone points out where he is wrong he just ignores it.

His arguments are worse than ones my 8 year old brother would make.

"Perhaps the reason they can navigate with flat maps is because the earth is flat."

I honestly don't see how you can be this bad at understanding things....

My only conclusion is that you're doing this on purpose just to troll because you're thought process is illogical and you are constantly unable or unwilling to try and defend yourself.

Face it Tom.

You make terrible arguments.

I've pointed it out several times and you have yet to refute it.

You don't even seem to understand the basics that are the foundations of the gibberish you spout.

I sincerely hope you are a troll.





Now back to the topic,

Can someone from FE please explain why they are unable to produce an FE map that accurately represents measured, real world distances?

Yes, he does it to me as well. He does it to all RE posters. I admit to getting it a little wrong but nothing like Tom.

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17541
Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2012, 05:37:43 AM »
"Perhaps the reason they can navigate with flat maps is because the earth is flat."

I honestly don't see how you can be this bad at understanding things....

I'm not particularly talking about Mercator maps. Navigators don't use a world Mercator map to travel the nuances of the British coast -- they use a big map of Europe -- maps specifically tailored to show the detailed areas of a region. It's these region specific maps which more closely match how the region would look on a flat earth model.

The types of maps which show a single region are flat with a single scale in the corner which show that one inch=xxx miles or so. They give a strong impression that the scale is applicable to anywehere on the page.

Consider this map for instance:



There is only one scale in the corner-- which gives the reader the impression that the scale is applicable across the entire map. Any region specific map you'll find has a single scale like this.

If the earth were a globe, there should be scales all over this map to account for the checkerboard of the longitude and latitude lines that grow and shrink on that map depending on where it is. However, there is only one scale on any region-specific map you look at. This suggests that it is a flat earth map.

Any atlas a navigator buys has only one scale in the corner like that. If a navigator traveling across Europe is using that one scale to judge his distances, and regularly reaches his destination with precision as claimed on this forum, then it can only be because the earth is flat.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 05:45:07 AM by Tom Bishop »

?

The Knowledge

  • 2391
  • FE'ers don't do experiments. It costs too much.
Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2012, 05:40:58 AM »
There is no map in that post, just a broken image link.
Watermelon, Rhubarb Rhubarb, no one believes the Earth is Flat, Peas and Carrots,  walla.

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17541
Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2012, 05:48:00 AM »
Refresh.

Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2012, 07:18:34 AM »
Refresh.

Doesn't work.

And i am still amazed how you avoid answering the question of a FE map: none are accurate, none have a proper scale, none preserve the distances, none don't distort the southern hemisphere.
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

?

MrT

  • 211
Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2012, 07:47:48 AM »
http://geology.com/world/europe-satellite-image.shtml

Assuming this link works, this is the map Tom tried to post.

My response...Hahahaha.

Hopefully this links helps.  I'm sure others will have a response as well.
The above is not meant to be an attack or inflammatory, it's just what I think.

Quote from: Tom Bishop
I don't understand

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 39572
Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2012, 08:13:48 AM »
"Perhaps the reason they can navigate with flat maps is because the earth is flat."

I honestly don't see how you can be this bad at understanding things....

I'm not particularly talking about Mercator maps. Navigators don't use a world Mercator map to travel the nuances of the British coast -- they use a big map of Europe -- maps specifically tailored to show the detailed areas of a region. It's these region specific maps which more closely match how the region would look on a flat earth model.

The types of maps which show a single region are flat with a single scale in the corner which show that one inch=xxx miles or so. They give a strong impression that the scale is applicable to anywehere on the page.

Consider this map for instance:

http://geology.com/world/europe-map.gif

Tom, that isn't a navigational chart.  This is what a navigational chart looks like:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/NOAA_chart_25664_1976.png
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.