Why is there even a debate?

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Rowbotham

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Why is there even a debate?
« on: August 31, 2011, 08:28:20 PM »
EnaG proves the earth is flat, did you RE loonies read it?

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markjo

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2011, 08:53:40 PM »
I read enough of ENaG to realize that Rowbotham could have given P.T. Barnum a run for his money.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Rowbotham

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2011, 09:00:06 PM »
I read enough of ENaG to realize that Rowbotham could have given P.T. Barnum a run for his money.

Clearly you believe NASA, read ENaG without the bias.

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markjo

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2011, 09:03:12 PM »
I believe my eyes when I watch the sun set below the horizon.  If the earth were flat and the sun was 3000 miles above, then the sun would never appear to come close to the horizon, let alone sink below it.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Rowbotham

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2011, 09:14:12 PM »
I believe my eyes when I watch the sun set below the horizon.  If the earth were flat and the sun was 3000 miles above, then the sun would never appear to come close to the horizon, let alone sink below it.

I know this is off topic but my friend wants to know what a troll would say in response to your comment, what is the proper toll response?

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markjo

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2011, 09:27:00 PM »
I believe my eyes when I watch the sun set below the horizon.  If the earth were flat and the sun was 3000 miles above, then the sun would never appear to come close to the horizon, let alone sink below it.

I know this is off topic but my friend wants to know what a troll would say in response to your comment, what is the proper toll response?

According to ENaG (perhaps you should read it yourself), it's a (creatively interpreted) perspective effect.  If you had lurked moar, you would know that some here think that an (as of yet) undiscovered electromagnetic accelerator curving the path of light is a more reasonable explanation.  Either way, you seem woefully unprepared to keep up with the major league trolling around here. 
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Rowbotham

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2011, 09:42:03 PM »
I believe my eyes when I watch the sun set below the horizon.  If the earth were flat and the sun was 3000 miles above, then the sun would never appear to come close to the horizon, let alone sink below it.


Im working on an experiment to explain this phonomena.

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Puttah

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2011, 10:39:11 PM »
I believe my eyes when I watch the sun set below the horizon.  If the earth were flat and the sun was 3000 miles above, then the sun would never appear to come close to the horizon, let alone sink below it.

I know this is off topic but my friend wants to know what a troll would say in response to your comment, what is the proper toll response?
A friend, righhhttt  ;)

I believe my eyes when I watch the sun set below the horizon.  If the earth were flat and the sun was 3000 miles above, then the sun would never appear to come close to the horizon, let alone sink below it.


Im working on an experiment to explain this phonomena.
No you're not.
Scepti, this idiocy needs to stop and it needs to stop right now. You are making a mockery of this fine forum with your poor trolling. You are a complete disgrace.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2011, 03:16:08 PM »
I believe my eyes when I watch the sun set below the horizon.

You've seen the sun below the horizon?  ???

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thefireproofmatch

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2011, 06:22:09 PM »
I believe my eyes when I watch the sun set below the horizon.

You've seen the sun below the horizon?  ???
Don't play dumb, Tom.
we're expected to throw up our hands and just BELIEVE.

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markjo

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2011, 06:54:44 PM »
I believe my eyes when I watch the sun set below the horizon.

You've seen the sun set below the horizon?  ???

Yes, I have.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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iwanttobelieve

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2011, 07:01:04 PM »
and so have I,

the FAQQERS flock of seagull setting sun has been debunked.



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Tom Bishop

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2011, 07:54:19 PM »
I believe my eyes when I watch the sun set below the horizon.

You've seen the sun set below the horizon?  ???

Yes, I have.

But you don't see the sun set below the horizon. You see the sun set into the horizon.

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Puttah

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2011, 07:57:22 PM »
But you don't see the sun set below the horizon. You see the sun set into the horizon.
Would you say this cat is setting below the table or into the table?
" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">
Scepti, this idiocy needs to stop and it needs to stop right now. You are making a mockery of this fine forum with your poor trolling. You are a complete disgrace.

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markjo

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2011, 08:20:09 PM »
I believe my eyes when I watch the sun set below the horizon.

You've seen the sun set below the horizon?  ???

Yes, I have.

But you don't see the sun set below the horizon. You see the sun set into the horizon.

I saw the sun travel downwards into the horizon.  I saw nothing to make me believe that the sun did anything but continue along its downward path below the horizon after it disappeared from view.  The fact that clouds were illuminated from underneath strongly suggests that the sun physically traveled to a position below those clouds.  This would be impossible if the sun were still 3000 miles above the surface of the earth as required by FET.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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pitdroidtech

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2011, 11:14:03 PM »
But you don't see the sun set below the horizon. You see the sun set into the horizon.
Would you say this cat is setting below the table or into the table?
" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">
Niiice!
First human spacewalker, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov: “Lifting my head I could see the curvature of the Earth's horizon. ’So the world really is round,’ I said softly to myself, as if the words came from somewhere deep in my soul. "

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Ski

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2011, 11:32:01 PM »
The cat is not receding into the horizon. I'm not sure what your point is.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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pitdroidtech

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2011, 11:36:49 PM »
I believe my eyes when I watch the sun set below the horizon.

You've seen the sun set below the horizon?  ???

Yes, I have.

But you don't see the sun set below the horizon. You see the sun set into the horizon.

setting sun by max_wedge, on Flickr

Which of the above scenarios do you see?
First human spacewalker, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov: “Lifting my head I could see the curvature of the Earth's horizon. ’So the world really is round,’ I said softly to myself, as if the words came from somewhere deep in my soul. "

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Puttah

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2011, 11:37:24 PM »
I'm not sure what your point is.
Typical of you.
Scepti, this idiocy needs to stop and it needs to stop right now. You are making a mockery of this fine forum with your poor trolling. You are a complete disgrace.

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Ski

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2011, 12:14:33 AM »
Perhaps if you were to make a coherent one, ...
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2011, 12:24:02 AM »
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pitdroidtech/6104973027/

Which of the above scenarios do you see?

I see the scenario where you neglected to read Earth Not a Globe before posting your dribble thinking that you are outwitting us.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 12:26:01 AM by Tom Bishop »

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pitdroidtech

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2011, 12:56:42 AM »
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pitdroidtech/6104973027/

Which of the above scenarios do you see?

I see the scenario where you neglected to read Earth Not a Globe before posting your dribble thinking that you are outwitting us.
The dribble (sic) that enag craps on about perspective is stupid in the extreme.  A disc does not look like a circle as it recedes into the distance - it looks like an elipse.  This is shit easy to demonstrate and I'm not going to bother arguing any further than that.
First human spacewalker, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov: “Lifting my head I could see the curvature of the Earth's horizon. ’So the world really is round,’ I said softly to myself, as if the words came from somewhere deep in my soul. "

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Ski

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2011, 01:03:32 AM »
Only if you persist on perpetuating the art-school perspective myth even after reading why it is demonstrably flawed.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Puttah

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2011, 02:13:33 AM »
Perhaps if you were to make a coherent one, ...
If only FE could ever grant us the same courtesy, then I'd consider spelling it out for you.

I see the scenario where you neglected to read Earth Not a Globe before posting your dribble thinking that you are outwitting us.
So you think you're in the clear just because you've been able to come up with an imaginative explanation as to why it seems as so given the presupposition that the Earth is flat. This is basically a big "what if" scenario, and not scientific whatsoever.
Unless you want to give us some evidence? Oh and please, please don't mention ENaG or I'll shit myself.

Only if you persist on perpetuating the art-school perspective myth even after reading why it is demonstrably flawed.
Myth? Oh art school is a part of the conspiracy... ofcourse....
Scepti, this idiocy needs to stop and it needs to stop right now. You are making a mockery of this fine forum with your poor trolling. You are a complete disgrace.

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markjo

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2011, 06:07:04 AM »
Only if you persist on perpetuating the art-school perspective myth even after reading why it is demonstrably flawed.

Art school perspective assumes an infinite plane flat earth model.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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pitdroidtech

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2011, 07:59:17 AM »
Only if you persist on perpetuating the art-school perspective myth even after reading why it is demonstrably flawed.
enag's take on perspective is based entirely on how Rowbotham needs it to be in order to explain the phenomena of objects disappearing over the horizon.  He makes no effort to demonstrate geometrically how his perspective works.  He makes a series of wild guesses then declares triumphantly that the quandary of ships disappearing over the horizon hull first is solved.

Art school perspective is not a myth; it's simply a guideline, and it is accepted that a simple two point perspective does not fit well into real life.  But for the example of a ship sitting on or below the horizon, with mostly straight vertical or horizontal lines, the model is adequate. 

Take Leanardo's explanation of perspective in art: "'Perspective', wrote Leonardo, 'is nothing else than seeing a place (sito) behind a pane of glass, quite transparent, on the surface of which the objects which lie behind the glass are to be drawn. They can be traced in pyramids to the point in the eye and these pyramids are intersected by the glass plane.' The 'pyramids' are composed of the light rays which link the visible surfaces of objects to the eye by straight lines called visual rays. Their points of intersection with the transparent plane (the picture plane) form the perspective image." http://www.oxfordreference.com/pages/samplep-17.html

Even so we don't rely on this.  We rely on the basic principal of geometry.  Things that are distant from us appear smaller due to the change in angle of the reflected light hitting our retina.  This formula is the same in both x and y axis of view. As an object recedes, all points reduce in apparent size at an equal rate.  Light travels in straight lines regardless of direction, and these reflected light rays project a mini-version of the reflected object onto our retina. There is no plausible explanation that could account for Rowbotham's theory that the hull reduces in the vertical dimension while it's horizontal dimension remains unshrunken. 
 
The Study of Optics is a field of Physics, and unlike art school, the laws are not stylised and simplified.  They are complex and provenhttp://www.play-hookey.com/optics/ 

The amount of refraction in the atmosphere is not sufficient to affect the result significantly other than in certain circumstances where mirages form (though these make ships appear upside down, or to be floating above the horizon, neither of which are believed to be actually occuring by FET or RET).  But where mirages do not form, which is is the majority of instances, there is a very clear sinking of the hull behind the horizon.

Mirages (or Superior Mirages is is most common on the ocean), and the behaviour of light in normal atmospheric conditions, is very well understood.



First human spacewalker, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov: “Lifting my head I could see the curvature of the Earth's horizon. ’So the world really is round,’ I said softly to myself, as if the words came from somewhere deep in my soul. "

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pitdroidtech

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2011, 08:05:11 AM »
Myth? Oh art school is a part of the conspiracy... ofcourse....
Ah yes of course,  I'll add them to the list....

The NASA big three are really wishing right now they'd never started this bloody conspiracy....it's getting a bit expensive paying off: Art school tutors, Physicists in the field of Optics, Observatories world wide and their staff and anyone who has access to the observatory (and who can view teh sun and observe that it is flat and not round), So Jose Bonet of the Instituto de Astrofísica de Canarias in Spain and colleagues, Astronomy magazine editors and "reader contribution" faking staff, various actors involved in faked artic bases, moonlandings etc, family and loved one's of disposed-of artic explorers paid to keep quiet, cell phone tower engineers, management and firmware designers , The many thousands of civilians who witnessed shuttle launches, the media that reported the shuttle launches, and the police, army and airforce who provided the shuttle launch security, Cosmologists, fake arctic scientists, arctic set builders, artic computer graphics designers, Geophysists, professional astronomers, global climate scientists, particle physicists and partical accelerator designers, telecommunications engineers, astro-physicists, NASA boffins, engineers, astronauts, ground crew, contractors, Indian, Chinese, European and Russian space agencies, private satelitte launch company management and engineers, gps manufacturers, ham radio operators (the vhf line of sight conspiracy), international airline pilots, flight path designers, "gps" aircraft pilots, mapping companies, surveyors, radar operators and manufacturers, ballistics engineers and ice wall guards, but the world's body of amatuer astronomers, Microsoft founder Paul Allen, Virgin owner Richard Branson, Burt Rutan, Brian Binnie, Mike Melvill (BB and MM, they just gotta be made up names), doctors, hospital administrators, moonburn patients, nurses and pharmacists, artic south pole explorers, circumnavigators.
First human spacewalker, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov: “Lifting my head I could see the curvature of the Earth's horizon. ’So the world really is round,’ I said softly to myself, as if the words came from somewhere deep in my soul. "

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Ski

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2011, 10:27:12 AM »
There is no art school conspiracy. There is a conspiracy of ill-intentioned dolts to ridicule the movement by representing art school perspective as a completely adequate explanation of phenomena they do not (or cannot) understand.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2011, 10:35:17 AM »
Only if you persist on perpetuating the art-school perspective myth even after reading why it is demonstrably flawed.
enag's take on perspective is based entirely on how Rowbotham needs it to be in order to explain the phenomena of objects disappearing over the horizon.

Nope. Please read the literature in my signiature. The hulls of half-sunken ships in the distance restored in full when looking at them through a telescope. This proves that they are not really hiding behind a "hill of water" and that Rowbotham's explanations for perspective are true.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=49605.msg1236876#msg1236876
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 10:37:55 AM by Tom Bishop »

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markjo

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Re: Why is there even a debate?
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2011, 12:39:52 PM »
Nope. Please read the literature in my signiature. The hulls of half-sunken ships in the distance restored in full when looking at them through a telescope.

Then why has no one provided photographic evidence of this phenomenon?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.