THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM

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Ryan Onessence

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THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« on: August 26, 2011, 12:24:55 AM »
It is encouraged that you read this PSYCHOLOGICAL DISCLAIMER
Note: This post is part of a wider thread of information which begins here


THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM:


This was the best simplified answer harvested online that best reflects the reasoning and purpose that this anomaly of quantum physics has within the articulation of the Omniverse Cosmology.

From: answers.yahoo.com

"This is the fundamental question in quantum physics (and the most overlooked ).
it is the quintessential question of what came first the chicken or the egg ?

Here is why:

1. All measurements require a conscious observer.

2. To explain consciousness, science breaks it down to the interplay of smaller and smaller units ( neurons, molecules, atoms, quarks, photons, electrons, etc. )

3. the existence and state of these discrete elements is dependent on quantum theory which requires a conscious observer to collapse the equation.

4. the conscious observer or "consciousness" remains unexplained (i.e "the black box ".)

Since consciousness is unexplained by physical theory but remains present in our understanding of physical theory, it is the mother of all things ( even the unconscious since it cannot generate the "conscious" )
The measurement problem is resolved by unifying the observer and observed into a single system that is not compatible with traditional reductionist science ( breaking things down to understand them ).
The unification is achieved by understanding there is only a universal consciousness that we are a part of. ( GOD ).

The measurement problem cannot be resolved by quantum theory becauase it is a metaphysical issue ( and unrelated to the success of quantum theory as science in its own right ).
What it does reveal is the deep mystery surrounding our existence and purpose in this universe.

If you ask me, there is only the "consciousness"...... it is always there and never dies even if the universe dies..... since we create our universes........
There are some great books out there.....
Try "the end of science" by john horgan."

Authored by the user Fullbony on Yahoo answers.
[/size]
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 01:00:47 AM by Ryan Onessence »
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Saddam Hussein

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2011, 05:12:44 AM »
Raa?

Also:

Authored by the user Fullbony on Yahoo answers.

Lol.

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Harutsedo

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2011, 06:38:54 AM »
I believe that this part:

"3. the existence and state of these discrete elements is dependent on quantum theory which requires a conscious observer to collapse the equation."

is untrue.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
If you don't know, whenever you talk about it you're invoking the supernatural
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Unknown != Magic.

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Ryan Onessence

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2011, 05:00:14 PM »
I believe that this part:

"3. the existence and state of these discrete elements is dependent on quantum theory which requires a conscious observer to collapse the equation."

is untrue.

evidence?
http://soundcloud.com/orin-zolis/sets/world-music-ethnic-beats/

Knowledge gained via academic means and intelligence are not mutually inclusive. Those who assume authority and superiority over conventionally uneducated persons would be wiser to keep this in mind.

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Harutsedo

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2011, 05:04:53 PM »
I believe that this part:

"3. the existence and state of these discrete elements is dependent on quantum theory which requires a conscious observer to collapse the equation."

is untrue.

evidence?

There are multiple interpretations to quantum mechanics that do not involve consciousness. Because there is no consensus, you can't very well use that as proof of anything, can you?
Quote from: Tom Bishop
If you don't know, whenever you talk about it you're invoking the supernatural
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Unknown != Magic.

?

Ryan Onessence

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2011, 05:24:35 PM »
I believe that this part:

"3. the existence and state of these discrete elements is dependent on quantum theory which requires a conscious observer to collapse the equation."

is untrue.

evidence?

There are multiple interpretations to quantum mechanics that do not involve consciousness. Because there is no consensus, you can't very well use that as proof of anything, can you?

This is the Philosophy etc. board I never claimed it to be proof its philosophy..like wise so is your statement of "incorrect" subject to the same non-consensus interpretation so there is no proof that all of the scientific observations aren't just repeated patterns of consciousness quasi-solidified by expectation.
http://soundcloud.com/orin-zolis/sets/world-music-ethnic-beats/

Knowledge gained via academic means and intelligence are not mutually inclusive. Those who assume authority and superiority over conventionally uneducated persons would be wiser to keep this in mind.

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Harutsedo

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2011, 05:54:40 PM »
I believe that this part:

"3. the existence and state of these discrete elements is dependent on quantum theory which requires a conscious observer to collapse the equation."

is untrue.

evidence?

There are multiple interpretations to quantum mechanics that do not involve consciousness. Because there is no consensus, you can't very well use that as proof of anything, can you?

This is the Philosophy etc. board I never claimed it to be proof its philosophy..like wise so is your statement of "incorrect" subject to the same non-consensus interpretation so there is no proof that all of the scientific observations aren't just repeated patterns of consciousness quasi-solidified by expectation.

I didn't say it was incorrect. That would be a bold claim. As it stands, this line of reasoning is useless.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 06:18:17 PM by Harutsedo »
Quote from: Tom Bishop
If you don't know, whenever you talk about it you're invoking the supernatural
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Unknown != Magic.

?

Ryan Onessence

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2011, 05:58:47 PM »
I believe that this part:

"3. the existence and state of these discrete elements is dependent on quantum theory which requires a conscious observer to collapse the equation."

is untrue.

evidence?

There are multiple interpretations to quantum mechanics that do not involve consciousness. Because there is no consensus, you can't very well use that as proof of anything, can you?

This is the Philosophy etc. board I never claimed it to be proof its philosophy..like wise so is your statement of "incorrect" subject to the same non-consensus interpretation so there is no proof that all of the scientific observations aren't just repeated patterns of consciousness quasi-solidified by expectation.

I didn't say it was incorrect. That would be a bold claim. As it stands, this line reasoning is useless.

untrue/incorrect, same thing   
http://soundcloud.com/orin-zolis/sets/world-music-ethnic-beats/

Knowledge gained via academic means and intelligence are not mutually inclusive. Those who assume authority and superiority over conventionally uneducated persons would be wiser to keep this in mind.

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Harutsedo

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2011, 06:02:04 PM »
I believe that this part:

"3. the existence and state of these discrete elements is dependent on quantum theory which requires a conscious observer to collapse the equation."

is untrue.

evidence?

There are multiple interpretations to quantum mechanics that do not involve consciousness. Because there is no consensus, you can't very well use that as proof of anything, can you?

This is the Philosophy etc. board I never claimed it to be proof its philosophy..like wise so is your statement of "incorrect" subject to the same non-consensus interpretation so there is no proof that all of the scientific observations aren't just repeated patterns of consciousness quasi-solidified by expectation.

I didn't say it was incorrect. That would be a bold claim. As it stands, this line of reasoning is useless.

untrue/incorrect, same thing

I didn't say it was untrue, either. ???
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 06:18:28 PM by Harutsedo »
Quote from: Tom Bishop
If you don't know, whenever you talk about it you're invoking the supernatural
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Unknown != Magic.

?

Ryan Onessence

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2011, 06:07:55 PM »
I believe that this part:

"3. the existence and state of these discrete elements is dependent on quantum theory which requires a conscious observer to collapse the equation."

is untrue.

evidence?

There are multiple interpretations to quantum mechanics that do not involve consciousness. Because there is no consensus, you can't very well use that as proof of anything, can you?

This is the Philosophy etc. board I never claimed it to be proof its philosophy..like wise so is your statement of "incorrect" subject to the same non-consensus interpretation so there is no proof that all of the scientific observations aren't just repeated patterns of consciousness quasi-solidified by expectation.

I didn't say it was incorrect. That would be a bold claim. As it stands, this line reasoning is useless.

untrue/incorrect, same thing

I didn't say it was untrue, either. ???

this
I believe that this part:

"3. the existence and state of these discrete elements is dependent on quantum theory which requires a conscious observer to collapse the equation."

is untrue.
pertains to this
There are multiple interpretations to quantum mechanics that do not involve consciousness. Because there is no consensus, you can't very well use that as proof of anything, can you?
does it not?
As it stands, this line reasoning is useless. (line of reasoning - i think this is what you meant)

for those who aren't interested in philosophy, yes...those who are interested in philosophy and thought experiments that expand perception then it is useful.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 06:14:47 PM by Ryan Onessence »
http://soundcloud.com/orin-zolis/sets/world-music-ethnic-beats/

Knowledge gained via academic means and intelligence are not mutually inclusive. Those who assume authority and superiority over conventionally uneducated persons would be wiser to keep this in mind.

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Harutsedo

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2011, 06:17:52 PM »
this
I believe that this part:

"3. the existence and state of these discrete elements is dependent on quantum theory which requires a conscious observer to collapse the equation."

is untrue.

I said I believed it is untrue. Not that it is untrue.

I believe that this part:
 As it stands, this line reasoning is useless. (line of reasoning - i think this is what you meant) Yes, it is

for those who aren't interested in philosophy, yes...those who are interested in philosophy and thought experiments that expand perception then it is useful.

I guess I just don't see the point in offering a proof of God based on one interpretation of a theory, especially one that is not believed by that many members of the physicist community anymore.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
If you don't know, whenever you talk about it you're invoking the supernatural
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Unknown != Magic.

?

Ryan Onessence

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2011, 06:38:21 PM »
It is encouraged that you read this PSYCHOLOGICAL DISCLAIMER
Note: This post is part of a wider thread of information which begins here


THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM:


This was the best simplified answer harvested online that best reflects the reasoning and purpose that this anomaly of quantum physics has within the articulation of the Omniverse Cosmology.

From: answers.yahoo.com
yadayadayada
Authored by the user Fullbony on Yahoo answers.
[/size]

I didn't use this to support the existence GOD  and I didn't change it as it would be disrespectful to the author. I do however agree with all the points they made and I also feel that they use the word GOD as loosely as I do myself. 
To me god is a 3 letter word describing a vengeful all powerful all knowing being that encompass all things...
To my mind that which encompasses all things entirely, to me is not vengeful nor is it all knowing...it is all possibilities happening simultaneously collapsed into one wave form which = nothing - note "things" do not denote all of existence...there fore nothing is a quality...Undefined Space if you will...if it is defined it is a thing a shape of space and a shape entails a thing-ness about it.

Nothing I feel is aware but not in how we typically think of consciousness... i.e. thoughts / mind / thinking...consciousness typically is comprised of 3 aspects i.e. awareness, thoughts and emotions/sensations. Remove all stimulated aspects of consciousness and what remains is awareness

Nothingness is akin to awareness, now replace thoughts with things and emotions/sensations with phenomena and that is my understanding of how the universe is conscious.         
http://soundcloud.com/orin-zolis/sets/world-music-ethnic-beats/

Knowledge gained via academic means and intelligence are not mutually inclusive. Those who assume authority and superiority over conventionally uneducated persons would be wiser to keep this in mind.

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Raist

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2011, 10:16:29 PM »
All measurements do not require a conscious observer. The formation of strata in rock was not observed but the results can be clearly seen after the fact.

Please learn the difference between light's particle wave duality and group effects such as life. While chickens and eggs may not have been observed before people the question is really just an ambiguous statement that could be correctly answered several ways given different assumptions.

1. it doesn't specify which kind of egg.

Eggs have existed long before chickens.

2. if it has to be a chicken egg then you have two options
   a) define chicken egg to be an egg layed by a chicken
   b) define chicken egg to be an egg containing a chicken


blah blah blah. It is a retarded question and not really a question of the ages. It is given meaning by those posing it but contains no deep questions itself.

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Ryan Onessence

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2011, 11:31:23 PM »
All measurements do not require a conscious observer. The formation of strata in rock was not observed but the results can be clearly seen after the fact.

Please learn the difference between light's particle wave duality and group effects such as life. While chickens and eggs may not have been observed before people the question is really just an ambiguous statement that could be correctly answered several ways given different assumptions.

1. it doesn't specify which kind of egg.

Eggs have existed long before chickens.

2. if it has to be a chicken egg then you have two options
   a) define chicken egg to be an egg layed by a chicken
   b) define chicken egg to be an egg containing a chicken


blah blah blah. It is a retarded question and not really a question of the ages. It is given meaning by those posing it but contains no deep questions itself.

again its not exactly how I would word it (the reason I grabbed it was that it gives a bit of a heads up as to what I'm getting at; the way I will describe it is in a much deeper sense but there need to be a few arbitrary pieces in place before anyone can wrap their heads around it in a linearly read manner)...I wasn't so much draw to the chicken in the egg idea part but the black box etc. is quite apt in regard to the fact physics cannot explain consciousness but consciousness can explain physics.
I am familiar with lights particle wave duality and you posted before I have added the next piece to the puzzle, which adds a huge point to the consciousness being the fundamental aspect of any experiment.
I am about to elaborate on this in another post regarding the origins of atomic/particle theory which ties In with the reasoning that particle based expectations have been built upon for many centuries before quantum physics was pioneered. 

Also when meta-physicists say that measurements need a conscious observer we don't mean literally observing it with eyes...Intent is the key aspect of observation because it is (from our perspective) a non-physical influence that is not pined down to the location of our thoughts and feelings but radiates out along the EMF/auric field of an individual as well as the mass collective consciousness...so an individuals influence can have an effect on an experiment before during and after the experiment takes place.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 11:40:09 PM by Ryan Onessence »
http://soundcloud.com/orin-zolis/sets/world-music-ethnic-beats/

Knowledge gained via academic means and intelligence are not mutually inclusive. Those who assume authority and superiority over conventionally uneducated persons would be wiser to keep this in mind.

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EnigmaZV

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2011, 02:28:52 PM »
physics cannot explain consciousness but consciousness can explain physics.

This is a meaningless phrase, physics doesn't seek to explain consciousness, nor does it claim it ever will. That would probably fall under the category of neurobiology.

Also when meta-physicists say that measurements need a conscious observer we don't mean literally observing it with eyes...Intent is the key aspect of observation because it is (from our perspective) a non-physical influence that is not pined down to the location of our thoughts and feelings but radiates out along the EMF/auric field of an individual as well as the mass collective consciousness...so an individuals influence can have an effect on an experiment before during and after the experiment takes place.

I also take issue with this whole paragraph. Our electromagnetic field confounds our obervations? Does that mean isolating scientists and equipment inside faraday cages will help make unbiased observations? Has such an experiment been done? Also, what do you mean by an "individual"? If the LHC was vacated before, during, and immediately after an experiment was conducted, would the monitoring equipment be considered an "individual"? What if it were set to run at a random time by detecting the decay of a radioactive atom, so no person knows when the experiment takes place, so they cannot inadvertantly effect it?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 02:35:05 PM by EnigmaZV »
I don't know what you're implying, but you're probably wrong.

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Raist

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2011, 09:17:50 PM »
All measurements do not require a conscious observer. The formation of strata in rock was not observed but the results can be clearly seen after the fact.

Please learn the difference between light's particle wave duality and group effects such as life. While chickens and eggs may not have been observed before people the question is really just an ambiguous statement that could be correctly answered several ways given different assumptions.

1. it doesn't specify which kind of egg.

Eggs have existed long before chickens.

2. if it has to be a chicken egg then you have two options
   a) define chicken egg to be an egg layed by a chicken
   b) define chicken egg to be an egg containing a chicken


blah blah blah. It is a retarded question and not really a question of the ages. It is given meaning by those posing it but contains no deep questions itself.

again its not exactly how I would word it (the reason I grabbed it was that it gives a bit of a heads up as to what I'm getting at; the way I will describe it is in a much deeper sense but there need to be a few arbitrary pieces in place before anyone can wrap their heads around it in a linearly read manner)...I wasn't so much draw to the chicken in the egg idea part but the black box etc. is quite apt in regard to the fact physics cannot explain consciousness but consciousness can explain physics.
I am familiar with lights particle wave duality and you posted before I have added the next piece to the puzzle, which adds a huge point to the consciousness being the fundamental aspect of any experiment.
I am about to elaborate on this in another post regarding the origins of atomic/particle theory which ties In with the reasoning that particle based expectations have been built upon for many centuries before quantum physics was pioneered. 

Also when meta-physicists say that measurements need a conscious observer we don't mean literally observing it with eyes...Intent is the key aspect of observation because it is (from our perspective) a non-physical influence that is not pined down to the location of our thoughts and feelings but radiates out along the EMF/auric field of an individual as well as the mass collective consciousness...so an individuals influence can have an effect on an experiment before during and after the experiment takes place.

Well then we will never know as we will never encounter something that hasn't had it's effects observed AND notice it. You should be looking for


If a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it did it make a sound? This is more along your intent. The chicken and the egg question makes no sense in your context.

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Ryan Onessence

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2011, 09:39:14 PM »
Funnily enough the tree falling Metaphor did come to mind yesterday arvo as I was pondering your detestment of the egg idea  :) 
http://soundcloud.com/orin-zolis/sets/world-music-ethnic-beats/

Knowledge gained via academic means and intelligence are not mutually inclusive. Those who assume authority and superiority over conventionally uneducated persons would be wiser to keep this in mind.

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EnigmaZV

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2011, 10:44:19 PM »
If sound is defined as a mechanical pressure wave trasmitted through a solid, liquid or gas medium, then yes, a tree falling in the woods does make a sound.
I don't know what you're implying, but you're probably wrong.

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Ryan Onessence

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2011, 01:48:54 AM »
I feel that maybe you haven't paid attention to at least the first abbreviated explanation of what the Psychological Disclaimer I have linked to these topics extrapolates. So bear in mind the rest of this reply contains sensible notions that cannot be refuted... If you are such a person that is anxious about the idea of consciousness being the fundamental cause and factor in all things (and please understand I am not implying a vengeful god that's going to come and get you) then for your own sake forego reading this reply. It is not my intention to start debate here but simply to offer what I have to share with those who already accept it on some level. There is a vast amount of sensible allegorical reasoning that is amassing which supports the simple notions of the Measurement Problem as outlined very briefly in this post. When looking into in greater scope the notions become far more grandiose. I  will urge all who come across this to take note that when something is known the knowledge of it cannot be undone, even if it is a concept that cannot be proven through the rigour of conventional science but which has thought provocative implications about how and what consciousness's roll is in the way that our existence is explored with regard to the purely mental processes of thought based scientific experiments.

If this is not your cup of tea then you probably shouldn't be reading it...this is the philosophy section after all. Given the implications of the notions presented introduce  thoughts that may be uncomfortable for some to consider, then it is only responsibly wise for myself to advocate that due to the fact that the notions that were presented in this threads original post were a tamer version of how I will extrapolate upon them myself, then it would be best that those who don't wish to have an unwanted irrefutable concept of consciousness based reality to become part of their mental inventory then they best stick with focusing on how they prefer to assume reality is, for the same principles that are described work in both head spaces. Only one pays direct attention where as the other utilises them passively so as to function at its optimum; implying the latter is reductionist scientific methods.

physics cannot explain consciousness but consciousness can explain physics.

This is a meaningless phrase, physics doesn't seek to explain consciousness, nor does it claim it ever will. That would probably fall under the category of neurobiology.

Meaningless...perhaps to one narrow band of science and the way most scientists within that band like to interpret their findings...in that regard I would say yes you are correct.
However Neurobiology is still a part of physics, science in general for that matter is “physics”  if you think about it, it is concerned with sorting and comparing data that can be measured and perceived with the five physical senses. Quantum physics doesn't literally allow an individual to physically mould the particles. Yes one may add or subtract things from gross mediums to see what happens to the particles during the reaction, but the particles themselves which are of concern are as intangible to ourselves as the electrical energy of thoughts firing between the neurotransmitters of the brain. 

Also when meta-physicists say that measurements need a conscious observer we don't mean literally observing it with eyes...Intent is the key aspect of observation because it is (from our perspective) a non-physical influence that is not pined down to the location of our thoughts and feelings but radiates out along the EMF/auric field of an individual as well as the mass collective consciousness...so an individuals influence can have an effect on an experiment before during and after the experiment takes place.

I also take issue with this whole paragraph. Our electromagnetic field confounds our obervations? Does that mean isolating scientists and equipment inside faraday cages will help make unbiased observations? Has such an experiment been done? Also, what do you mean by an "individual"? If the LHC was vacated before, during, and immediately after an experiment was conducted, would the monitoring equipment be considered an "individual"? What if it were set to run at a random time by detecting the decay of a radioactive atom, so no person knows when the experiment takes place, so they cannot inadvertantly effect it?

The "/auric" part where i mentioned EMF/auric field is to imply that the aura
is not just the EMF, and was included so as to distinguish the EMF range as an
arbitrary range of the total spectrum...I have had many a discussion with people in the past who out right refuted the idea that the human body generates an EMF of its own, even tho science measures a certain range of brain wave patterns with Electroencephalographs...The EMF though is simply an arbitrary measurement of frequencies; the entier field of energy pertinent to an individual, I feel, spans much much more than the EMF spectrum.

The LHC has been built with expectations, so yes, I feel that even if vacated the intent of the experimenters as well as everyone else who are aware of it are still active to some extent...a thought a feeling an intention or expectation has a frequency to it, of which impresses upon the subject of focus similar to the way as an observer in quantum physics is a fundamental part of to the outocme of what is observed

If sound is defined as a mechanical pressure wave transmitted through a solid, liquid or gas medium, then yes, a tree falling in the woods does make a sound.
Now regarding as to whether a falling tree makes a sound, I would say yes you are correct in your argument...However if there is no conscious being of which possesses ears to hear the sound it does not make a noise, it will only cause vibration. Reciprocal perception is the subject of focus here.
Likewise as when there are no beings to hear the tree fall it still makes a vibration, then so to do thoughts feelings and intentions exhibit vibrations. Human beings generally in this day and age may not be so finely tuned to the content of these imperceivable vibrations, nevertheless science cannot assert that they have no effect, we all have experienced the comforting effect of a kindred souls presence even when they display no apparent body language or spoken words to suggest active kindness. This for the exact same reason why a joy-filled friends casual words will mellow the mood... Resonance.   

Take care
http://soundcloud.com/orin-zolis/sets/world-music-ethnic-beats/

Knowledge gained via academic means and intelligence are not mutually inclusive. Those who assume authority and superiority over conventionally uneducated persons would be wiser to keep this in mind.

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Raist

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2011, 03:06:40 PM »
If sound is defined as a mechanical pressure wave trasmitted through a solid, liquid or gas medium, then yes, a tree falling in the woods does make a sound.

He is basically trying to start a discussion on whether things that are not observed truly happen. It's a retarded philosophical debate that has no real meaning as it only applies to things that literally do not matter to us.

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Ryan Onessence

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2011, 07:56:12 PM »
If sound is defined as a mechanical pressure wave trasmitted through a solid, liquid or gas medium, then yes, a tree falling in the woods does make a sound.

He is basically trying to start a discussion on whether things that are not observed truly happen. It's a retarded philosophical debate that has no real meaning as it only applies to things that literally do not matter to us.

Raist, Clearly your sensitive about this topic...if it rials you then don't look into it...saying that something is a retarded philosophical argument before you have even seen the rest of the pieces relevant to it, in a wider context, is quite...well...you should be able to see what I'm getting at.

I know what EnigmaVZ is saying, obviously you chose to ignore how I used it as an analogy opposed to debating over whether or not things that aren't observed happen, which is not my position on this matter, my position on this has been outlined in the paragraphs above, if you couldn't figure it out maybe you should read them more thoroughly in a calm unbiased state rather than reacting to the points that evoke reasons to argue from your biased perspective.

the tree in the forest is ultimately a useless analogy for EnigmaVZ argument (which I'm not defending) because forests are full of living things...trees for one, also the metaphysical idea that the earth in general is a sentient crystalline based being eradicates the whole reasoning of the argument. A more apt analogy for that argument would be do things happen in a place where there is no observer i.e. the space between galaxies...
http://soundcloud.com/orin-zolis/sets/world-music-ethnic-beats/

Knowledge gained via academic means and intelligence are not mutually inclusive. Those who assume authority and superiority over conventionally uneducated persons would be wiser to keep this in mind.

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Ryan Onessence

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2011, 08:05:54 PM »

It's a retarded philosophical debate that has no real meaning as it only applies to things that literally do not matter to us.
[/quote]

I believe that is untrue
http://soundcloud.com/orin-zolis/sets/world-music-ethnic-beats/

Knowledge gained via academic means and intelligence are not mutually inclusive. Those who assume authority and superiority over conventionally uneducated persons would be wiser to keep this in mind.

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Raist

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2011, 08:35:40 PM »
If sound is defined as a mechanical pressure wave trasmitted through a solid, liquid or gas medium, then yes, a tree falling in the woods does make a sound.

He is basically trying to start a discussion on whether things that are not observed truly happen. It's a retarded philosophical debate that has no real meaning as it only applies to things that literally do not matter to us.

Raist, Clearly your sensitive about this topic...if it rials you then don't look into it...saying that something is a retarded philosophical argument before you have even seen the rest of the pieces relevant to it, in a wider context, is quite...well...you should be able to see what I'm getting at.

I know what EnigmaVZ is saying, obviously you chose to ignore how I used it as an analogy opposed to debating over whether or not things that aren't observed happen, which is not my position on this matter, my position on this has been outlined in the paragraphs above, if you couldn't figure it out maybe you should read them more thoroughly in a calm unbiased state rather than reacting to the points that evoke reasons to argue from your biased perspective.

the tree in the forest is ultimately a useless analogy for EnigmaVZ argument (which I'm not defending) because forests are full of living things...trees for one, also the metaphysical idea that the earth in general is a sentient crystalline based being eradicates the whole reasoning of the argument. A more apt analogy for that argument would be do things happen in a place where there is no observer i.e. the space between galaxies...

Here is why I think it is retarded. If a light particle is not observed while it is traveling it does not collapse into particle form. Events that are not observed still cause things such as rock strata even if they are not resolved. Therefore the two situations are not analogous.

Also, quantum mechanics applies to individual particles behaving outside the normal einstenian physics therefore there is no reason to extend this to events on the normal scale.

I'm sorry if you think I'm angry, I just don't see the point of a thought experiment that doesn't apply to any object a sentient being will ever touch, interact with, see, or observe in any way. It's like asking "Our dogs secretly super intelligent beings with 19 inch cocks when we aren't looking?" of course there is no way to prove this one way or another but we can assume pretty easily that it is false.

If you disagree with that analogy then prove me wrong.

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Ryan Onessence

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2011, 09:10:18 PM »
If you were not upset wouldn't you not feel the need to use terms such as retarded. this indicates a level of resentment at the fact that there are people who have different beliefs to yourself, as well as a self conceited sense of superiority; inferring that others who have an opinion that is contrary to your own are stupid. If this is not true and you don't want people to perceive you to be such, then you know what to do. People will be more communicative about their perspective if you don't actively pursue the points that only grind your gears, and take in the whole perspective.

Now regarding proving you wrong...I can't as nor can you prove me wrong...this is the simple ramification of the thought experiments that will be implored as you read the posts to come; that is to say that the absorbing of aspects of the Omniverse concept is a participation in the thought experiments that will eventually reveal the irrefutable self (inner) evidence and the practical uses of further experiments in perception   

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Here is why I think it is retarded. If a light particle is not observed while it is traveling it does not collapse into particle form.
are you sure you don't mean "collapse into waveform"...I'm going to assume so.

also you say:

"Also, quantum mechanics applies to individual particles behaving outside the normal einstenian physics therefore there is no reason to extend this to events on the normal scale."

which is the same reason why I said this:
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The LHC has been built with expectations, so yes, I feel that even if vacated the intent of the experimenters as well as everyone else who are aware of it are still active to some extent...a thought a feeling an intention or expectation has a frequency to it, of which impresses upon the subject of focus similar to the way as an observer in quantum physics is a fundamental part of to the outocme of what is observed

which also applies to why the particle does not collapse into waveform whilst not being observed when travelling, its the expectation which moulds the outcome of an experiment...If you had a bunch of meta-physicists conducting the same research with the intent and expectation to always see collapsing waveforms they would so long as there was no interference patterns generated by sceptics.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 09:15:28 PM by Ryan Onessence »
http://soundcloud.com/orin-zolis/sets/world-music-ethnic-beats/

Knowledge gained via academic means and intelligence are not mutually inclusive. Those who assume authority and superiority over conventionally uneducated persons would be wiser to keep this in mind.

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Raist

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2011, 09:47:50 PM »
collapses into wave form? Funny because it behaves like a wave before it collapses and a particle after it collapses. But you know you're the expert I'm just angry.

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Ryan Onessence

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2011, 11:43:46 PM »
collapses into wave form? Funny because it behaves like a wave before it collapses and a particle after it collapses. But you know you're the expert I'm just angry.

From what i have researched the double slit experiment monitors light photon particles going through two slits of which when one slit is closed the light then behves like a waveform asthough the second slit were still open when it is not. the waves creat a circute for the observed efect of the second slits flow of light to continue as thouh a program set up which is continualy feed by the energy entering via the open slit...sort of like droping a rock in a small shalowpond and watching the riples bounce back and forth from the edges back to the point the rock was droped in at....but instead the ripples are indefinatley self sustained...

Also: you side step the point that einstein already conceptualised light as a mass of particles;to which the expected observations are predefined by intent from the metaphysic perspective. Your remarks only show the lack of your own initiatve to understand others...why bother if you dont like being countered on every point it just seams like your craving to have the last word so I'll let you have it by not responding to however you chose to construe the information i have presented in your next reply..the next thread post will likley be more than enough to dispel anything you add to to this thread as a basis of argument. As far as im concerned there is no argument only a choice of difering perspectives which cannot win over the other in a debate
http://soundcloud.com/orin-zolis/sets/world-music-ethnic-beats/

Knowledge gained via academic means and intelligence are not mutually inclusive. Those who assume authority and superiority over conventionally uneducated persons would be wiser to keep this in mind.

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Harutsedo

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2011, 07:56:47 AM »
collapses into wave form? Funny because it behaves like a wave before it collapses and a particle after it collapses. But you know you're the expert I'm just angry.

From what i have researched the double slit experiment monitors light photon particles going through two slits of which when one slit is closed the light then behves like a waveform asthough the second slit were still open when it is not. the waves creat a circute for the observed efect of the second slits flow of light to continue as thouh a program set up which is continualy feed by the energy entering via the open slit...sort of like droping a rock in a small shalowpond and watching the riples bounce back and forth from the edges back to the point the rock was droped in at....but instead the ripples are indefinatley self sustained...

No. When there is only a single slit, it acts like as a particle. When both slits are open it either acts as a particle when being measured, or a wave when not.
The waveform collapses to the particle form.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 07:59:52 AM by Harutsedo »
Quote from: Tom Bishop
If you don't know, whenever you talk about it you're invoking the supernatural
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Unknown != Magic.

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EnigmaZV

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2011, 01:30:10 PM »
Also, when the experiment was first performed, the results were very surprising. The scientists' expectations of the results differed from the experimental results. this flies in the face of your claim that observations match experimental expectations.
A similar situation was when Rutherford shot alpha particles at a thin gold sheet in an attempt to study the shape of the atom. The results changed the way everyone thought about the structure of the atom.
I don't know what you're implying, but you're probably wrong.

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Ryan Onessence

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2011, 05:26:05 PM »
Also, when the experiment was first performed, the results were very surprising. The scientists' expectations of the results differed from the experimental results. this flies in the face of your claim that observations match experimental expectations.
A similar situation was when Rutherford shot alpha particles at a thin gold sheet in an attempt to study the shape of the atom. The results changed the way everyone thought about the structure of the atom.

It would seam I need to revise the double slit experiment then, i only looked into it the last couple of weeks; no matter, the implications don't even scathe the wider scope of the metaphysical perspective.

Also: you side step the point that einstein already conceptualised light as a mass of particles;to which the expected observations are predefined by intent from the metaphysic perspective...[edit: the next thread post (I meant topic; so I'm aware you may have been mislead to think I was going to post here)] will likley be more than enough to dispel anything you add to to this thread as a basis of argument. As far as im concerned there is no argument only a choice of difering perspectives which cannot win over the other in a debate


The next topic will raise implications of why these examples do not fly in face of my claims, besides I din't claim anything I'm supporting it based on internally perceived experiential reasoning, aswell as the fact that atomic theory was conceptualised in a manner of ways many centuries ago therefore adding to the notion that:
when meta-physicists say that measurements need a conscious observer we don't mean literally observing it with eyes...Intent is the key aspect of observation because it is (from our perspective) a non-physical influence that is not pined down to the location of our thoughts and feelings but radiates out along the EMF/auric field of an individual as well as the mass collective consciousness...so an individuals influence can have an effect on an experiment before during and after the experiment takes place.

As I made clear to raist I wont continue to bring up these points to counter his perspective, this goes for everyone else; I'm happy to be informed of things that I should revise as stated here with the d-slit exp but for arguments sake on the wider issues if others fail to take in all the points made or choose to ignore what I have already said, excluding so as that their own points can appear debatable... I will simply ignore them myself.

I think the real reason that mainstream science reacts so defensively to these notions is because most people who support them ignore science and are either religiously inclined of spiritually inclined based upon beliefs choosing to believe what they want to, and ignoring the “facts”, I say facts with quotation because these facts are still observations that are repeatable based on scaffolding which utilises assumptions such as the Einsteinian assumption that light travels in straight lines and always at the same speed...i.e. We can repeatedly observe astrological objects traversing a defined coarse, however that is not a justified reason to assert that light does not or cannot bend under certain conditions...and you can guarantee  that if the assumption of light bending becomes a reason to support something in the defence of scientific data that is more important to maintaining the establishment than the theory of relativity, it will be incorporated into the mainstream; for instance the same way it was posed as a solution to explain the phantom city that appeared recently over the river in Japan (or some other country in Asia I forget) 

Further it seams that the thing that bothers the establishments position most is that there are certain individuals who have no religious background, and thus no indoctrinated belief system to defend, who have non drug induced mystical experiences that they cannot deny themselves, and are contradictory to the mainstreams ideas. Especially so when these individuals go about studying and researching the relevant subjects, releasing all of their work free without any strings attached...

The question that then occurs to those scientists who only wish to support the ideas of the establishment, is, “what would motivate someone to do such a thing” deep down they know the answer but they don't want to openly admit it...there are people who are literally unable to conform to the current scientific paradigm...they have had experiences that occur outside of the parameters of the conventional box. When one experiences something that is repeatedly observable from their own esoteric point of view it becomes inner knowledge...when this knowledge renders their orientation of conscious perception irreversibly incompatible with the mainstream model...they are mentally incapable of having that knowledge replaced by scientific “knowledge” which was observed and repeatedly accept by many without question therefore solidifying it as a “consensus reality”

There have been hypnotists that have caused people to see things that aren't there as well as see through things that are there such as he case of the girl whom was able to tell the hypnotist what object he held behind another person who he had convinced did not exist in the room at that time . This can only be possible if a. past observations are what people are recalling about their surroundings, then super imposing them over the current moment, or excluding current things. And or b. that there is a sub-psychic collective conciousness Hypnosis only happens when a person is receptive to suggestion...science has inadvertently (and sometimes intentionally) operated with NLP - neuro linguistic programming (passive hypnosis like methods) by quoting a load of technical data which confuses the average person lulling them into the assumption which convinces them that the “experts” know exactly what they are dealing with. This leads to a potentially illusory or collective sub reality which is not congruent with the way things really are behind the veil.

This is why from the metaphysics perspective it seams silly for science to ignore these factors and insist on making out anything else to be mumbo jumbo...when really both realities are functionable...those who wish to be a part of mainstream reality will choose to whether these implications are publicly acknowledge by the media or not. For the very base notion of these concepts alone imply that ones reality is that which they choose it to be. This thereby allows those who are not ready to embrace higher dimensional life to maintain that which is a comfortable threshold.
http://soundcloud.com/orin-zolis/sets/world-music-ethnic-beats/

Knowledge gained via academic means and intelligence are not mutually inclusive. Those who assume authority and superiority over conventionally uneducated persons would be wiser to keep this in mind.

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EnigmaZV

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Re: THE QUANTUM MEASUREMENT PROBLEM
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2011, 07:17:08 AM »
There have been hypnotists that have caused people to see things that aren't there as well as see through things that are there such as he case of the girl whom was able to tell the hypnotist what object he held behind another person who he had convinced did not exist in the room at that time . This can only be possible if a. past observations are what people are recalling about their surroundings, then super imposing them over the current moment, or excluding current things. And or b. that there is a sub-psychic collective conciousness Hypnosis only happens when a person is receptive to suggestion...science has inadvertently (and sometimes intentionally) operated with NLP - neuro linguistic programming (passive hypnosis like methods) by quoting a load of technical data which confuses the average person lulling them into the assumption which convinces them that the “experts” know exactly what they are dealing with. This leads to a potentially illusory or collective sub reality which is not congruent with the way things really are behind the veil.

You forgot c The person was a plant.
I don't know what you're implying, but you're probably wrong.