Mapping the flat earth

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Skeleton

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Mapping the flat earth
« on: August 03, 2011, 05:37:44 PM »
Flattists defend their lack of a satisfactory map of a flat earth (while simultaneously treating their preferred version as gospel) by saying "The FES does not have enough money and resources to send out a mapping team to cover the whole world".
Well, imagine for a moment that it did. I want to know what cartographic techniques they would use, since all known methods of mapping would produce maps identical to those we have for a round earth, which they say are wrong. So they would clearly have to measure everything in a different way - what would that be?
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

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gotham

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2011, 06:09:58 PM »
Using airships will be good for a new mapping effort. 

http://spot.colorado.edu/~dziadeck/airship/introduction.htm

I have been looking into this method for a while and that is just one site for obtaining information on the subject. Of course it will take effort to properly map the Earth.  I will be interested to hear feedback on the airship potential.

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Thork

Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2011, 06:12:27 PM »
Yes, airships sound good.

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Skeleton

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2011, 06:12:46 PM »
Using airships will be good for a new mapping effort. 

http://spot.colorado.edu/~dziadeck/airship/introduction.htm

I have been looking into this method for a while and that is just one site for obtaining information on the subject. Of course it will take effort to properly map the Earth.  I will be interested to hear feedback on the airship potential.

I am more interested in how you will compile the map accurately so as not to end up with the same "mistakes" that round earth biased mappers supposedly have done? What measurements will be taken?
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

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gotham

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2011, 06:24:34 PM »
The crew would consist of qualified professionals that would log data and map-draw as the airship progressed across the Earth.  They would include a Zetetic, a scientist, and a surveyor.  I do believe the results obtained from their task would be accepted by all in society.

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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2011, 06:45:56 PM »
The crew would consist of qualified professionals that would log data and map-draw as the airship progressed across the Earth.  They would include a Zetetic, a scientist, and a surveyor.  I do believe the results obtained from their task would be accepted by all in society.

This also sounds good to me.

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Around And About

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2011, 08:33:59 PM »
The crew would consist of qualified professionals that would log data and map-draw as the airship progressed across the Earth.  They would include a Zetetic, a scientist, and a surveyor.  I do believe the results obtained from their task would be accepted by all in society.

This also sounds good to me.

This also sounds good to me, I do not detect any flaws whatsoever with this method.
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markjo

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2011, 09:12:33 PM »
The crew would consist of qualified professionals that would log data and map-draw as the airship progressed across the Earth.  They would include a Zetetic, a scientist, and a surveyor.  I do believe the results obtained from their task would be accepted by all in society.

Just out of curiosity, with what branch(es) of science should the scientist be competent?
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Theodolite

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2011, 09:18:39 PM »
Obviously a cartographer wouldnt be needed, all you are doing is making a map.
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Verrine

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2011, 03:02:03 AM »
The crew would consist of qualified professionals that would log data and map-draw as the airship progressed across the Earth.  They would include a Zetetic, a scientist, and a surveyor.  I do believe the results obtained from their task would be accepted by all in society.

Just out of curiosity, with what branch(es) of science should the scientist be competent?

With FE.

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Puttah

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2011, 03:08:21 AM »
I have a feeling you're going to start with a large piece of paper with a circle drawn on it.

Not... very... zetetic....
Scepti, this idiocy needs to stop and it needs to stop right now. You are making a mockery of this fine forum with your poor trolling. You are a complete disgrace.

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Verrine

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2011, 03:10:51 AM »
I have a feeling you're going to start with a large piece of paper with a circle drawn on it.

Not... very... zetetic....

How else would you map a giant disk?  ???

Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2011, 03:17:30 AM »
The crew would consist of qualified professionals that would log data and map-draw as the airship progressed across the Earth.  They would include a Zetetic, a scientist, and a surveyor.  I do believe the results obtained from their task would be accepted by all in society.

I'm a little bit curious about this team and method as well.  Mapping from an airship seems all well and good at first glance, but what advantage does that hold over mapping from the ground?  Theoretically you would get the same results for all landmasses from the air as from the ground; the only difference it would make would be the distance between continents, where they do not connect.  And of course the trip out to the icewall, but considering the distances involved and the danger to a craft like one of those airships wouldn't it just be better to use a more standard jet?

markjo has already asked about the scientist's expertise, so I can pretty much skip over that one.  I would argue that you don't really need a scientist of any discipline present for a mission explicitly dedicated to cartography, but there are certainly other things on the trip worth investigating.

As far as the surveyor goes, this one leaves me a bit confused.  Various posters (primarily Theolodite) have expounded the virtues of modern surveying techniques and their accuracy, but this has been almost unanimously rejected by those supporting FET for a variety of reasons.  If you would trust the measurements of the surveyor on this mission, why not just accept the thousands of maps already carefully measured and marked by people who are experts in that very same discipline?

Last, the zetetic.  I have to admit, I was a little puzzled on this one; I originally thought that zeteticism was just a word used in the FE community that was synonymous with direct observation, so I did a bit of research.  The most useful thing I found, I think, was Lord Wilmore's exposition on the subject on these very forums:
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=48821.0

In order to support the conclusions about the discipline that I have come to, first a couple of relevant quotes from that document (quotes not necessarily in order):

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"I believe that the use of the word "observation" indicates that Rowbotham means something quite different to traditional globularist notion of 'empirical data', which includes photographs, fanciful accounts and all manner of 'evidence' that may not have been observed nor experienced by the person..."

"No speculation or guesswork is involved; instead the synthesis of empiricism and rationalism whereby logic is correctly applied to experiential data leads inevitably to the truth. Moreover, the Zetetic Method specifically advocates the use of deductive logic as opposed to inductive logic."

"In contrast, that Zetetics "[learn] from experience and observation" (Rowbotham 1) implies that they make logical deductions based on data they have themselves experienced or observed, and that there must be a direct connection between the data and the person drawing logical conclusions from it. Otherwise, Zetetics would not be making logical deductions on the basis of "experience and observation", but rather from reported experiences or reported observations. In short, the Zetetic Method requires that logical deduction be based upon direct sensorial evidence."

"Scientists compare empirical data with the previously conjured products of their imaginations, "supposing, instead of inquiring, imagining systems instead of learning from observation and experience the true constitution of things" (Rowbotham 1). In other words, our best guesses are compared with reality, and if there is an apparent correspondence, the theory is approved."

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Now, I by no means intend to turn this into a debate about zeteticism or its merits.  It certainly has its uses.  What confuses me is the presence of a person on this mission specifically designated as a zetetic.  If what I understand is correct, a zetetic is a person who essentially functions as the ultimate skeptic -- if he cannot directly observe something happen, or cannot make a deductive leap from an observation to a conclusion, then he can come to no conclusions.

More specifically, to the context of this mission.  A zetetic cannot accept evidence derived by any method which is reported to him by another person.  Thus, he could not accept evidence presented by the surveyor showing that an island was in one place rather than another.  Considering the zetetic aversion to inductive evidence, he especially could not accept any conclusions drawn by the scientist on board.

So what does that leave, for the proposed mission?  We have one crew member who has no function at all with respect to mapping; one who is very good at discovering and describing the shape of the land, but who is doing entirely redundant work if the efforts of his discipline are to be trusted; and one who is unable to accept any data provided by or conclusions drawn by the first two crew members.


The only way I can see something like this being at all useful to the FE community is if every important crew member is a zetetic and also trained in the disciplines of every other crew member in order that they could share data and verify observations.  But then, the scientist is out because anybody who accepts inductive evidence as proof, or potential proof of anything cannot be a zetetic.  And of course the generic zetetic crew member isn't going to be coming along, since without any other training he cannot perform a useful function to the mission.

So we are left with a one-man crew, the zetetic surveyor.  But then, I must ask again -- if his work is to be trusted by the community, why not just accept the compiled works of other experts in his field?  If you accept that the techniques of surveying are valid methods for generating maps, then surely his work would be nothing but redundant.  Even if he were the greatest surveyor ever to live past or present, at best he would likely find only minor errors in previous mapping efforts; certainly nothing on the scale of redistributing continents to more closely align with FET.

At best, he could provide estimates of the position and extent of the icewall, or what lies beyond its initial boundary.  But that just begs another question:  if he could accomplish such a thing why hasn't anyone done it previously?  We've had the technology to perform long-distance flights in harsh conditions for decades. 

To me, it seems that only one of two possible conclusions is possible here.  Either the world is a globe, and such surveying missions have been undertaken in the past and confirmed this; or the world is flat but the Conspiracy is so vast and powerful that it has stopped all previous attempts or sequestered their results.  There's no need to comment on the first option, but if the second is true then it would appear impossible for anyone outside the Conspiracy to undertake such a mission.  If this is the case, then it is also impossible to perform any sort of meaningful zetetic survey of the shape of the world. 

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Skeleton

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2011, 10:19:28 AM »
The crew would consist of qualified professionals that would log data and map-draw as the airship progressed across the Earth.  They would include a Zetetic, a scientist, and a surveyor.  I do believe the results obtained from their task would be accepted by all in society.

So still no information at all on what they would do differently to a normal cartographic enterprise other than they would be in an airship? What measurements are they taking which differ from those done before?
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

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gotham

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2011, 10:40:04 AM »
An airship is recommended for this mapping endeavor because it provides the best vantage point of observation giving the most accurate results.

The measurement criteria will be determined in discussions between the Zetetic, the scientist, and the surveyor.  The crew will be qualified professionals so they should resolve the best methods for the process. 

I am having a busy day but will try to expand on this later.

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Skeleton

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2011, 10:53:11 AM »
An airship is recommended for this mapping endeavor because it provides the best vantage point of observation giving the most accurate results.

The measurement criteria will be determined in discussions between the Zetetic, the scientist, and the surveyor.  The crew will be qualified professionals so they should resolve the best methods for the process. 

I am having a busy day but will try to expand on this later.

Please do, thats why I made this thread.
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

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gotham

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2011, 04:40:26 PM »
The mapping project is one that will serve us all well.  It is designed in response to the growing need of accurate Earth representation.   

The project is part of a for-profit effort where all profits (after investor payout) fund other Earth-shape related projects.   

My personal involvement is at the company formation level including determining base location, communicating with City Council members at the host location, securing airspace permission, and project funding activity.  These activities are currently moving forward and specifics can not be given pending details of non-disclosure contracts in place. 

The plan is to have a fleet of the airships that work as a unit to map the Earth. There are only two specific demands that come to mind that are in my direct control.  They are the use airships to maximize the efficiency of observation and the use walkie-talkies to communicate between airships.  I have owned walkie-talkies and I know that they work.

The crew has already been described and to them I delegate the details of measurements and to determine who is best at drawing observations as they occur.   

I do appreciate the timing of this thread and I will keep an eye on it to see if information develops useful to the goal, as stated.


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General Disarray

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2011, 04:52:45 PM »
How will you determine the distances between the airships? Where is your funding coming from? How will you reliably determine distances when over open ocean?
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gotham

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2011, 05:27:03 PM »
How will you determine the distances between the airships? Where is your funding coming from? How will you reliably determine distances when over open ocean?

Questions #1 and #3 will be good ones for the crew.  Question #2 on funding falls to the non-disclosure agreements but I will say this.  Can you imagine the value of the maps?  One of the more difficult tasks was assigning a value to them for the pro forma statements.   

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General Disarray

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2011, 05:37:10 PM »
It seems to me that the most important part of this expedition (and the part airships are least suited to) is mapping the distances between various points on different continents. The shapes of.the continents don't seem to be much in dispute.

As has been pointed out numerous times by your colleagues, flight times between continents have various factors affecting them, and those factors would only be magnified using an airship. Perhaps you should put some more thought into this issue before launching a full-scale mapping expedition.
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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2011, 05:46:21 PM »
How will you determine the distances between the airships? Where is your funding coming from? How will you reliably determine distances when over open ocean?

Can you imagine the value of the maps?

Very very little.
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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2011, 06:51:26 PM »
... Where is your funding coming from? ...

For the purposes of this thread, according to the OP, the funding is imagined.  In reality, as FE funds go, we could maybe come up with a horse and a hodometer.  Patience would be the virtue most in demand, I suspect.

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Theodolite

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2011, 09:34:46 PM »
If you were to have a surveyor on the crew, they would not choose an airship as an appropriate method for making a map.  Surface traversing is by far the best method.  A small team of surveyors can map massive areas from mountaintops in short order.  All with angles, no distance measuring required
Gather round my gentle sheep, I have a wonderful spherical story for you

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Puttah

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2011, 11:33:26 PM »
How will you determine the distances between the airships? Where is your funding coming from? How will you reliably determine distances when over open ocean?

Can you imagine the value of the maps?

Very very little.
Considering the drafts will be crude drawing of a globe, I wouldn't be paying much for it.
Scepti, this idiocy needs to stop and it needs to stop right now. You are making a mockery of this fine forum with your poor trolling. You are a complete disgrace.

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Skeleton

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2011, 10:02:46 AM »
... Where is your funding coming from? ...

For the purposes of this thread, according to the OP, the funding is imagined.  In reality, as FE funds go, we could maybe come up with a horse and a hodometer.  Patience would be the virtue most in demand, I suspect.

Mrs Peach is right. Imagine the funding is supplied and as many resources as you need are available to you.
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

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Puttah

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2011, 05:03:49 PM »
I'd still like to know how a zetetic would account for possibly other shapes of the Earth besides it being flat (as a true zetetic, you shouldn't assume you know the shape of the Earth until you've seen it with your own eyes). The only response I've had is... well...

I have a feeling you're going to start with a large piece of paper with a circle drawn on it.

Not... very... zetetic....

How else would you map a giant disk?  ???
Scepti, this idiocy needs to stop and it needs to stop right now. You are making a mockery of this fine forum with your poor trolling. You are a complete disgrace.

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Skeleton

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2011, 03:34:25 AM »
I'd still like to know how a zetetic would account for possibly other shapes of the Earth besides it being flat (as a true zetetic, you shouldn't assume you know the shape of the Earth until you've seen it with your own eyes). The only response I've had is... well...

I have a feeling you're going to start with a large piece of paper with a circle drawn on it.

Not... very... zetetic....

How else would you map a giant disk?  ???

Its not zetetic to assume its a disc. Until the edges have been observed and mapped no conclusions about the shape of the edge should be made. It might be square.
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

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Puttah

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2011, 07:06:12 PM »
Its not zetetic to assume its a disc. Until the edges have been observed and mapped no conclusions about the shape of the edge should be made. It might be square.
Which then poses my question, will the Flat Earth Society be considering alternate shapes of the Earth when they begin mapping? I highly doubt it...
Scepti, this idiocy needs to stop and it needs to stop right now. You are making a mockery of this fine forum with your poor trolling. You are a complete disgrace.

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Theodolite

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2011, 07:09:00 PM »
Its not zetetic to assume its a disc. Until the edges have been observed and mapped no conclusions about the shape of the edge should be made. It might be square.
Which then poses my question, will the Flat Earth Society be considering alternate shapes of the Earth when they begin mapping? I highly doubt it...


Considering the surveyor will be collecting the data, and the scientist will probably have the necessary training to understand it, the zetetic will be busy writing poetry, since they arent really qualified to participate in any other way.


Zetetic log:   day 1   i can see the land/sea spread out to the horizon.
day 2    same as day 1
etc
Gather round my gentle sheep, I have a wonderful spherical story for you

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Skeleton

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Re: Mapping the flat earth
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2011, 09:16:32 AM »
Its not zetetic to assume its a disc. Until the edges have been observed and mapped no conclusions about the shape of the edge should be made. It might be square.
Which then poses my question, will the Flat Earth Society be considering alternate shapes of the Earth when they begin mapping? I highly doubt it...

They will not be considering any shapes, just looking to see what shapes lie before them so an accurate FE map can be produced. Since cartography from the past to the present has always resulted in a map that only fits on a round earth, I am curious to know how the flattists would prevent this from happening again.
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.