FE and Deism

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Thork

FE and Deism
« on: August 03, 2011, 02:50:50 PM »
Religion
When asked about religion, I usually reply that I am an atheist. However that's not a very accurate way to describe how I feel. And then I thought, well secular is probably better as it doesn't rule out a God or a creator, but doesn't subscribe to a religion.

The problem I have with religions is not the God part. I'm quite happy that the universe could be of intelligent design. What I hate are miracles, prophets, priests and anywhere a person claims they have in some way heavenly connections and that they are better than everyone else. It annoys me. That stinks of people trying to manipulate other people for money or power. Pick any religion you want, it is used to make money or war or to tell people how you want them to live their lives. So religion ... no, not for me.

But I have always thought that the universe cannot be a fluke. Its just too perfect, everything works. The complexity required and having everything just right. The odds are unfathomable. And I am very good at applied maths. And when I see how everything from the constants of the universe, to the petals on a flower to the bones in your hand, to the wings on a bird all following perfect mathematical logic, I feel the universe is screaming out its perfection, its brilliance, its design. Change any small part and it doesn't work. And I like that. To think my life is just a fluke is depressing and if there is a God, somewhat ungrateful. But I really don't think he gives a cr*p about us individually. That would be like me paying consequence to a germ on my arm. Infinite love and omnipotence? I don't buy that. Just because we'd like that, its wishful thinking.

The FE bit
Anyway, I have been busy studying celestial gears. Its a topic we could probably use a thread on, and it explains the FE cosmology nicely without orbits etc. But I have found that much of these theories on sky gears are also shared by globularists. Both heliocentrics and geocentrics. And this gave rise to the 'Clockwork Universe'. The universe is run by gearing and that gearing was set in motion by its creator. It answers all the 'big' questions.
And this belief system (especially with the clockwork gearing) is know as Deism. It made me wonder that although FES is inhabited almost entirely by atheists, whether Deism doesn't fit in better with our reasoning?

*This could have gone in Philosophy or religion but I felt the connection with the clockwork universe made a case for it going in FEG.

?

momentia

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2011, 03:03:53 PM »
Religion

But I have always thought that the universe cannot be a fluke. Its just too perfect, everything works.

....

Anyway, I have been busy studying celestial gears. Its a topic we could probably use a thread on, and it explains the FE cosmology nicely without orbits etc. But I have found that much of these theories on sky gears are also shared by globularists. Both heliocentrics and geocentrics. And this gave rise to the 'Clockwork Universe'. The universe is run by gearing and that gearing was set in motion by its creator. It answers all the 'big' questions.
And this belief system (especially with the clockwork gearing) is know as Deism. It made me wonder that although FES is inhabited almost entirely by atheists, whether Deism doesn't fit in better with our reasoning?


*This could have gone in Philosophy or religion but I felt the connection with the clockwork universe made a case for it going in FEG.

I would be fascinated by your theory of celestial gears.

minor point: Clockwork universe doesn't mean actual gears spinning around, It means things follow certain rules (such as negative and positive charges attract.) Just to clarify for viewers new to the theory.

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Thork

Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2011, 03:12:51 PM »
For the minor point, clockwork universe did start out meaning exactly that, with God being the 'prime mover' for the 'machina mundi' which was later adapted as a metaphor for determinism. But deism can be adopted by both views and fits nicely with the FE universe.

As for celestial gears, give me another day or two. I really want to read 1550 De sphaera mundi by Johannes de Sacrobosco but I can't find a copy online. It is over 600 years old so its not like the author and his family are still getting royalties.

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Skeleton

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2011, 05:06:04 PM »
Do these celestial gears explain the rotation of stars round the south celestial pole?


...


Dont forget to recycle the paper your theory is written on.
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2011, 09:47:39 AM »
celestial gears has been debunked, for one, who lubricates them? No one can because space flight is impossible. at near absolute zero space gears would have ceased up ages ago without constant lubrication.

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Thork

Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2011, 10:08:10 AM »
Yes, amusing.

The system will be similar to this for planets.


Its easily modelled. You can buy such a thing to show you how the planets travel around earth. The Sun and moon are the only thing not right in this model. But we have separate models to show where the sun and moon travel in the FAQ.



*

Skeleton

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2011, 10:15:35 AM »
Yes, amusing.

The system will be similar to this for planets.


Does this page of scribble explain the motion of stars around the south celestial pole?
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

?

Thork

Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2011, 10:26:36 AM »
That is the movement of the planets. I did tell you that. You even quoted it.

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Skeleton

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2011, 10:54:46 AM »
That is the movement of the planets. I did tell you that. You even quoted it.

So thats a no then? And can I now accurately state that celestial gears do not explain rotation of stars round the south celestial pole? At last, something we agree on.
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

?

Thork

Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2011, 12:02:30 PM »
No, that would be inaccurate. The gearing does explain stars. They are just not depicted on this particular source.


This is a picture of the Osbournes. Aimee Osbourne is not included in this picture. That is not to say that I cannot tell you about Aimee Osborne. It does not mean she does not exist or that she is a figment of my imagination. You cannot accurately state that a lack of Aimee Osborne in this picture means you may claim a round earth victory. All it means is that she is not in this picture and the picture makes no effort to explain her.

*

Skeleton

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2011, 12:43:57 PM »
No, that would be inaccurate. The gearing does explain stars. They are just not depicted on this particular source.

Please explain how the gearing explains the movement of stars round the south celestial pole, then. You must know this, because you say "the gearing does explain stars". So please enlighten us all.
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

?

Thork

Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2011, 12:58:49 PM »
As mentioned I will do a celestial gearing thread when I am ready. I am still looking for 1550 De sphaera mundi by Johannes de Sacrobosco and the Almagest by Ptolemy would be helpful too.
If you can point me at them, it would speed things up.

For now this thread is about Deism and FET.

*

Skeleton

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2011, 01:16:00 PM »
As mentioned I will do a celestial gearing thread when I am ready. I am still looking for 1550 De sphaera mundi by Johannes de Sacrobosco and the Almagest by Ptolemy would be helpful too.
If you can point me at them, it would speed things up.

For now this thread is about Deism and FET.

Celestial gearing was mentioned by you in the original post. Therefore discussion of it is relevant in this thread.
I must ask though, will your celestial gear thread be appearing before or after publication of John Davises book of How Wizards Do Things?
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

?

Thork

Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2011, 01:18:18 PM »
I think hell will freeze over before the publication of John Davis' book on How Wizards Do Things. However I hope not, but as that book is unlikely to contain sky gearing the two are mutually exclusive.

*

Skeleton

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2011, 01:24:59 PM »
I think hell will freeze over before the publication of John Davis' book on How Wizards Do Things. However I hope not, but as that book is unlikely to contain sky gearing the two are mutually exclusive.

(a) the comparison was to suggest your celestial gear thread will never appear, but I was obviously too subtle.
(b) goody, I dont have to pay 10.
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

?

Thork

Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2011, 01:31:38 PM »
a) I got it. I just chose to ignore it.
b) I can charge you? I will pm you a retrospective invoice. It will be rather large I am afraid.

*

Tausami

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2011, 03:51:17 PM »
Religion
When asked about religion, I usually reply that I am an atheist. However that's not a very accurate way to describe how I feel. And then I thought, well secular is probably better as it doesn't rule out a God or a creator, but doesn't subscribe to a religion.

The problem I have with religions is not the God part. I'm quite happy that the universe could be of intelligent design. What I hate are miracles, prophets, priests and anywhere a person claims they have in some way heavenly connections and that they are better than everyone else. It annoys me. That stinks of people trying to manipulate other people for money or power. Pick any religion you want, it is used to make money or war or to tell people how you want them to live their lives. So religion ... no, not for me.

But I have always thought that the universe cannot be a fluke. Its just too perfect, everything works. The complexity required and having everything just right. The odds are unfathomable. And I am very good at applied maths. And when I see how everything from the constants of the universe, to the petals on a flower to the bones in your hand, to the wings on a bird all following perfect mathematical logic, I feel the universe is screaming out its perfection, its brilliance, its design. Change any small part and it doesn't work. And I like that. To think my life is just a fluke is depressing and if there is a God, somewhat ungrateful. But I really don't think he gives a cr*p about us individually. That would be like me paying consequence to a germ on my arm. Infinite love and omnipotence? I don't buy that. Just because we'd like that, its wishful thinking.

The FE bit
Anyway, I have been busy studying celestial gears. Its a topic we could probably use a thread on, and it explains the FE cosmology nicely without orbits etc. But I have found that much of these theories on sky gears are also shared by globularists. Both heliocentrics and geocentrics. And this gave rise to the 'Clockwork Universe'. The universe is run by gearing and that gearing was set in motion by its creator. It answers all the 'big' questions.
And this belief system (especially with the clockwork gearing) is know as Deism. It made me wonder that although FES is inhabited almost entirely by atheists, whether Deism doesn't fit in better with our reasoning?

*This could have gone in Philosophy or religion but I felt the connection with the clockwork universe made a case for it going in FEG.

*moves back on topic*

You may have just converted me to Deism, TBH.

*

Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2011, 07:41:27 PM »
I've been making pretty much the exact same argument in favor of deism here for years.  It's good to see that someone else here thinks the same way.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

?

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2011, 09:43:55 PM »
But I have always thought that the universe cannot be a fluke. Its just too perfect, everything works. The complexity required and having everything just right. The odds are unfathomable.

I had those thoughts once, but my personal conclusion is that the universe is not limited by my ability to comprehend it. 
Gather round my gentle sheep, I have a wonderful spherical story for you

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2011, 09:47:01 PM »
But I have always thought that the universe cannot be a fluke. Its just too perfect, everything works. The complexity required and having everything just right. The odds are unfathomable.

I had those thoughts once, but my personal conclusion is that the universe is not limited by my ability to comprehend it.

I don't see the relevance.  ???
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

*

Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2011, 10:14:54 PM »
I am a deist and I hope other deists will eventually join the FE ranks. Maybe we could talk to the World Union.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 10:23:17 PM by Ichimaru Gin :] »
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

?

momentia

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2011, 11:28:34 PM »
As mentioned I will do a celestial gearing thread when I am ready. I am still looking for 1550 De sphaera mundi by Johannes de Sacrobosco and the Almagest by Ptolemy would be helpful too.
If you can point me at them, it would speed things up.

For now this thread is about Deism and FET.

Found it in latin, not really helpful. I don't know why your after it so much. It supports a round earth model. (Geocentric yes, but round none the less. It look like it's reliant on that.)

*

Skeleton

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2011, 10:15:44 AM »
But I have always thought that the universe cannot be a fluke. Its just too perfect, everything works. The complexity required and having everything just right. The odds are unfathomable. And I am very good at applied maths.

You may be good at applied maths but youre demonstrating here that you are profoundly lacking in Ability To Think Things Through.
Imagine a universe which was NOT perfect, in which things didnt work. Say atoms were more unstable, or the laws of physics were different, or that stars and planets as we know them (or dont know them in the FES case) did not form. Imagine that in some way, a form of intelligent life was able to evolve in this universe. It looks at the universe and thinks "wow, its astonishing that everything is just perfect and works exactly right for us to be provided with life!" However, if this creature were to somehow arrive in our universe, its particles would fall to bits or explode or something catastrophic. It would think our universe was very far from perfect.
This is why the intelligent design argument is circular. The universe looks perfect to us because we could not exist in it unless it did. There may be billions of other universes, or there may be six, or none. The odds are unfathomable not because they are vast, but because we simply dont have the data to guess them.
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

*

Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2011, 10:37:39 AM »
But I have always thought that the universe cannot be a fluke. Its just too perfect, everything works. The complexity required and having everything just right. The odds are unfathomable. And I am very good at applied maths.
Imagine a universe which was NOT perfect, in which things didnt work. Imagine that in some way, a form of intelligent life was able to evolve in this universe.
If things didn't work then that form of life wouldn't exist.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

*

Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2011, 10:38:25 AM »
But I have always thought that the universe cannot be a fluke. Its just too perfect, everything works. The complexity required and having everything just right. The odds are unfathomable. And I am very good at applied maths.

You may be good at applied maths but youre demonstrating here that you are profoundly lacking in Ability To Think Things Through.
Imagine a universe which was NOT perfect, in which things didnt work. Say atoms were more unstable, or the laws of physics were different, or that stars and planets as we know them (or dont know them in the FES case) did not form. Imagine that in some way, a form of intelligent life was able to evolve in this universe. It looks at the universe and thinks "wow, its astonishing that everything is just perfect and works exactly right for us to be provided with life!" However, if this creature were to somehow arrive in our universe, its particles would fall to bits or explode or something catastrophic. It would think our universe was very far from perfect.
This is why the intelligent design argument is circular. The universe looks perfect to us because we could not exist in it unless it did. There may be billions of other universes, or there may be six, or none. The odds are unfathomable not because they are vast, but because we simply dont have the data to guess them.

It's funny.  Thork needed only use what we're able to observe in the universe around us to formulate his opinion that some kind of God is likely to exist.  You had to compound absurdity upon absurdity before indulging in pure speculation about the number of universes that might exist in total in order to counter it.  And yet for some reason your explanation is regarded by people such as yourself as the more scientific one... it's amazing to me that atheists puff out their chests like they're the ones with the open minds, yet when presented with solid reasoning to believe in God they seem to feel it necessary to just make stuff up when trying to refute it.

Are you a "hard" atheist or a "soft" atheist, Skeleton?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 10:40:04 AM by Roundy the Truthinessist »
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2011, 10:49:57 AM »
But I have always thought that the universe cannot be a fluke. Its just too perfect, everything works. The complexity required and having everything just right. The odds are unfathomable. And I am very good at applied maths.

You may be good at applied maths but youre demonstrating here that you are profoundly lacking in Ability To Think Things Through.
Imagine a universe which was NOT perfect, in which things didnt work. Say atoms were more unstable, or the laws of physics were different, or that stars and planets as we know them (or dont know them in the FES case) did not form. Imagine that in some way, a form of intelligent life was able to evolve in this universe. It looks at the universe and thinks "wow, its astonishing that everything is just perfect and works exactly right for us to be provided with life!" However, if this creature were to somehow arrive in our universe, its particles would fall to bits or explode or something catastrophic. It would think our universe was very far from perfect.
This is why the intelligent design argument is circular. The universe looks perfect to us because we could not exist in it unless it did. There may be billions of other universes, or there may be six, or none. The odds are unfathomable not because they are vast, but because we simply dont have the data to guess them.

It's funny.  Thork needed only use what we're able to observe in the universe around us to formulate his opinion that some kind of God is likely to exist.  You had to compound absurdity upon absurdity before indulging in pure speculation about the number of universes that might exist in total in order to counter it.  And yet for some reason your explanation is regarded by people such as yourself as the more scientific one... it's amazing to me that atheists puff out their chests like they're the ones with the open minds, yet when presented with solid reasoning to believe in God they seem to feel it necessary to just make stuff up when trying to refute it.

Are you a "hard" atheist or a "soft" atheist, Skeleton?
I don't think you understood his point. What he is saying is that it's fallacious to say that the universe is perfect if it's the only thing we've ever experienced and we don't know anything else.
Your view is kind of flawed.
We exist --> the universe is perfect so that we can exist, otherwise we wouldn't be able to exist
"Perfect" is a fabrication. The universe works the way it does, and assigning quality to that doesn't make sense.

As to your point about his absurdities, I think he was using a perfectly valid analogy to show that our universe just works. It's hard to understand that our universe isn't "perfect" without considering that there may be another universe that works equally well for a different kind of life form.

?

Thork

Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2011, 10:54:31 AM »
The more I learn about science, the further from atheism I feel.

*

Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2011, 10:55:00 AM »
But I have always thought that the universe cannot be a fluke. Its just too perfect, everything works. The complexity required and having everything just right. The odds are unfathomable. And I am very good at applied maths.

You may be good at applied maths but youre demonstrating here that you are profoundly lacking in Ability To Think Things Through.
Imagine a universe which was NOT perfect, in which things didnt work. Say atoms were more unstable, or the laws of physics were different, or that stars and planets as we know them (or dont know them in the FES case) did not form. Imagine that in some way, a form of intelligent life was able to evolve in this universe. It looks at the universe and thinks "wow, its astonishing that everything is just perfect and works exactly right for us to be provided with life!" However, if this creature were to somehow arrive in our universe, its particles would fall to bits or explode or something catastrophic. It would think our universe was very far from perfect.
This is why the intelligent design argument is circular. The universe looks perfect to us because we could not exist in it unless it did. There may be billions of other universes, or there may be six, or none. The odds are unfathomable not because they are vast, but because we simply dont have the data to guess them.

It's funny.  Thork needed only use what we're able to observe in the universe around us to formulate his opinion that some kind of God is likely to exist.  You had to compound absurdity upon absurdity before indulging in pure speculation about the number of universes that might exist in total in order to counter it.  And yet for some reason your explanation is regarded by people such as yourself as the more scientific one... it's amazing to me that atheists puff out their chests like they're the ones with the open minds, yet when presented with solid reasoning to believe in God they seem to feel it necessary to just make stuff up when trying to refute it.

Are you a "hard" atheist or a "soft" atheist, Skeleton?
I don't think you understood his point. What he is saying is that it's fallacious to say that the universe is perfect if it's the only thing we've ever experienced and we don't know anything else.
Your view is kind of flawed.
We exist --> the universe is perfect so that we can exist, otherwise we wouldn't be able to exist
"Perfect" is a fabrication. The universe works the way it does, and assigning quality to that doesn't make sense.

As to your point about his absurdities, I think he was using a perfectly valid analogy to show that our universe just works. It's hard to understand that our universe isn't "perfect" without considering that there may be another universe that works equally well for a different kind of life form.

But the fact that we, beings who are able to observe and catalogue and try to understand and appreciate this imperfect yet just right universe, exist as a result of this universe's laws is evidence in itself that there was a Creator who intended that to be.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

*

Skeleton

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2011, 10:59:04 AM »
But I have always thought that the universe cannot be a fluke. Its just too perfect, everything works. The complexity required and having everything just right. The odds are unfathomable. And I am very good at applied maths.
Imagine a universe which was NOT perfect, in which things didnt work. Imagine that in some way, a form of intelligent life was able to evolve in this universe.
If things didn't work then that form of life wouldn't exist.

And you know this how? Because you torture water creatures for a hobby? Does the phrase "its life Jim, but not as we know it" ring any bells?
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

*

Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2011, 11:00:41 AM »
But I have always thought that the universe cannot be a fluke. Its just too perfect, everything works. The complexity required and having everything just right. The odds are unfathomable. And I am very good at applied maths.
Imagine a universe which was NOT perfect, in which things didnt work. Imagine that in some way, a form of intelligent life was able to evolve in this universe.
If things didn't work then that form of life wouldn't exist.

And you know this how? Because you torture water creatures for a hobby? Does the phrase "its life Jim, but not as we know it" ring any bells?

And now you use science-fiction to support your point?  ???
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?