From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?

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Vindictus

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and here we gain some insight into the psyche of a FEer.  just because YOU cant understand something does not mean that somebody much more intelligent than yourself can understand it.  these astrophysicists devote there lives to studying the heavens and you should thank them, but your ideology is so out of whack that you cant even recognize their accomplishments, which truly are a grace on humanity.

You're both really only saying "NO THE ASTROPHYSICISTS ARE RITE/RONG".

im saying i trust the people who devote their academic and professional lives to the study of something.  Just as one would trust an architect who has devoted his academic and professional life to building to build a  functional skyscraper, one should trust an astrophysicist within his/her line of work.  they have studied it in a manner of detail that you simply have not and thus understand matters of astrophysics on a level that you do not.  how many of you FEers have a PHD and understand the level of rigor applied to this career path?

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Vindictus

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It's still an appeal to authority.

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berny_74

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It's still an appeal to authority.

And the ubiquitous "Read ENaG" isn't?

Berny
To Pizza or not to Pizza?
To be fair, sometimes what FE'ers say makes so little sense that it's hard to come up with a rebuttal.
Moonlight is good for you.

your argument is horrible.  authority is GAINED or LOST by whatever means.  sometimes by force, sometimes by knowledge and perseverance, etc.  these people gain their authority on the matter of astrophysics through intense academic rigor, something you obviously have no concept of.

astrophysicists aren't running around telling you how to live your life, they are just trying to explain life's mysteries.  just get it man

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Vindictus

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your argument is horrible.  authority is GAINED or LOST by whatever means.  sometimes by force, sometimes by knowledge and perseverance, etc.  these people gain their authority on the matter of astrophysics through intense academic rigor, something you obviously have no concept of.

astrophysicists aren't running around telling you how to live your life, they are just trying to explain life's mysteries.  just get it man

That doesn't make them any less right or wrong.

And the ubiquitous "Read ENaG" isn't?

Berny
To Pizza or not to Pizza?


No, it's probably worse, considering the content of ENaG.

Vindictus
Playing the pedant


Stars supposedly moving away from each other.  This is another example of RE science "filling in holes" to make their theories work.  Because something blue or red shifts it does not necessitate that it is in fact moving.
Yes it does.  Redshift and blueshift is used in terrestrial applications, such as Dopler radar.  If not for the doppler effect, and the blueshift or redshift that results, doppler radar would not work.  This can be verified easily.  Infact every time you get a ticket for speeding, it's been verified to you.

First human spacewalker, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov: “Lifting my head I could see the curvature of the Earth's horizon. ’So the world really is round,’ I said softly to myself, as if the words came from somewhere deep in my soul. "

Has anyone shown the expansion of the universe by measuring the changing distances between stars?
I don't believe the speed at which the universe is expanding (which btw is at an increasing rate ie accelerating) is fast enough for us to have directly observed the increase in distance between galaxies in the time frame we have been studying them and the huge distance they are away from us.

There are however direct observations that make a very compelling case.   Hawking is not the first, nor the most significant researcher on cosmic inflation.  Hubble was the first person to propose the idea, for extremely good reason.  This article below has a very good summary of the reasons that inflation is considered more or less accepted by the world's scientists today.

http://www.universe-galaxies-stars.com/Metric_expansion_of_space.html

And to  clear up some earlier misunderstandings, the fabric of space-time is indeed thought to be expanding, rather than the galaxies moving away from eachother within a fix field.
First human spacewalker, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov: “Lifting my head I could see the curvature of the Earth's horizon. ’So the world really is round,’ I said softly to myself, as if the words came from somewhere deep in my soul. "

Considering your entire description of the heavens is catastrophically opposed to the description presented by cosmologists and astrophysicists, they must be in on the conspiracy right?

As you can see from the list I have been compiling everytime a FE theory requires someone to be in the pay of NASA (see below), cosmologist and astrophysicists must indeed be in on the conspiracy.

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The NASA big three are really wishing right now they'd never started this bloody conspiracy....it's getting a bit expensive paying off: various actors involved in faked artic bases, moonlandings etc, family and loved one's of disposed-of artic explorers paid to keep quiet, cell phone tower engineers, management and firmware designers , The many thousands of civilians who witnessed shuttle launches, the media that reported the shuttle launches, and the police, army and airforce who provided the shuttle launch security, Cosmologists, fake arctic scientists, arctic set builders, artic computer graphics designers, Geophysists, professional astronomers, global climate scientists, particle physicists and partical accelerator designers, telecommunications engineers, astro-physicists, NASA boffins, engineers, astronauts, ground crew, contractors, Indian, Chinese, European and Russian space agencies, private satelitte launch company management and engineers, gps manufacturers, ham radio operators (the vhf line of sight conspiracy), international airline pilots, flight path designers, "gps" aircraft pilots, mapping companies, surveyors, radar operators and manufacturers, ballistics engineers and ice wall guards, the world's body of amatuer astronomers, Microsoft founder Paul Allen, Virgin owner Richard Branson, Burt Rutan, Brian Binnie, Mike Melvill (BB and MM, they just gotta be made up names), doctors, hospital administrators, moonburn patients, nurses and pharmacists, artic south pole explorers, circumnavigators.
First human spacewalker, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov: “Lifting my head I could see the curvature of the Earth's horizon. ’So the world really is round,’ I said softly to myself, as if the words came from somewhere deep in my soul. "

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Agnostic

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As you can see from the list I have been compiling everytime a FE theory requires someone to be in the pay of NASA (see below), cosmologist and astrophysicists must indeed be in on the conspiracy.

There are many people in your list that I do not see as part of the conspiracy.

I do not know how you came to that amount of people.

A conspiracy cannot work with that many people involved. You should improve your list so it focuses on where the problem really is:

1. NASA
2. Governments
3. Telecom operators

and consider that only the top management (or side people of the top management) is part of the conspiracy.

There are many examples of dishonesty from telecom operators, NASA and governments.

Look at, for example about telecom operators :

http://www.greenworldinvestor.com/2011/03/29/cbi-2g-telecom-scandal-criminal-conspiracycheating-charge-against-essarreliance-communicationswill-sc-throw-top-executives-in-jail-like-raja/

(not related to the FET, but still, demonstrates dishonesty of these people)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 12:19:20 AM by Agnostic »
"The earth is flat indeed. Saying it is a sphere was the worst mistake of our modern science." 1893. Pr. Orlando Ferguson, Academy of Science

"The world is flat." 2005. Thomas Friedman

As you can see from the list I have been compiling everytime a FE theory requires someone to be in the pay of NASA (see below), cosmologist and astrophysicists must indeed be in on the conspiracy.

There are many people in your list that I do not see as part of the conspiracy.

I do not know how you came to that amount of people.

A conspiracy cannot work with that many people involved. You should improve your list so it focuses on where the problem really is:

1. NASA
2. Governments
3. Telecom operators

and consider that only the top management (or side people of the top management) is part of the conspiracy.

There are many examples of dishonesty from telecom operators, NASA and governments.

Look at, for example about telecom operators :

http://www.greenworldinvestor.com/2011/03/29/cbi-2g-telecom-scandal-criminal-conspiracycheating-charge-against-essarreliance-communicationswill-sc-throw-top-executives-in-jail-like-raja/

(not related to the FET, but still, demonstrates dishonesty of these people)
I compiled the list from people inferred by FE'ers as necessary to be in on the conspiracy in order to validate some outlandish theory, or some outlandish disproof, that the FE'er proposed.

For example: Airline Pilots.

Airline pilots study mathematics and navigation.  They know the airpspeed of their aircraft, travel time and the distance on a RET map.  They would, without any doubt whatsoever, eventually observe that the distances they could manually calculate did not tarry with the RET map.  It would become commonly discussed knowledge amongst pilots.  It would be brought up at conventions, with employers etc.  NASA must have stepped in fairly early in the piece to buy off all the pilots.  They must also have established a body whose responsibility was ensuring all new pilots were brought onto the payroll as they started active employment.  This body would have to large enough to administer the buy-off scheme to thousands of pilots a year, involving a whole other group of office administrators, clerks and accountants doing the work onf this body.  A large proportion (though not all) would need to have atleast the knowledge that the pilots were being bought off, even if they didn't know the exact details.

The things is this is just the pilots.  Take the HAM radio and vhf line of sight conspiracy.  There are atleast tens of thousands of HAM operators throughout the world.  Most of them have a very thorough knowledge of radio theory and how radio waves travel and propogate.  If the earth was round as the theories say, then their radio signals wouldn't reach around the world (in vhf band).  Since their radio signals do reach (according to FET) across the world, any ham radio operator worth a pinch of salt would soon notice this.  Again, NASA will have had to step in to pay of all the HAM radio operators around the world to get them to keep hush hush about the fact their vhf signals can travel to all corners of the disc, even though they should not be able to do so, according to the RET model.

So you see, there is a snowball affect of people NASA have to pay off to keep the conspiracy going.  It's quite a task.  I do wonder were all the money is comming from.  NASA's budget for 2008 was $17 billion.  Let's say 20000 people are all given 1 million to keep quiet.  Remember just paying them a few thousand isn't going to cut it.  It needs to be a lot of money.  Plus some people, like Richard Branson, are already very rich so will need a lot more than 1 million dollars.   So I think it's a conservative estimate to say that 20,000 people need to be paid 1 million dollars per year to even start keeping the conspiracy quiet:

2000 HAM operators
2000 Scientists  (really this would be many  many more - astrophysicist, geophysicists, climate scientists, astronomers and many more whose work directly involves working with RE theories that would be proven invalid by a Flat Earth - they would need to be paid off big time)
2000 Engineers
2000 Airline Pilots
2000 Doctors
2000 Nurses
2000 Manufacturer CEO's (not even including R&D teams)
2000 Surveyors
2000 Amateur astronomers
2000 GPS chip firmware designers

20000 x 1000000 = 20 billion, about equal to NASA's budget.   And that's not their take home budget after they pay all their own people (even the one's who aren't in in the conspiracy need to be paid), rent, office admin, power and all the other things an organisation of that size has to spend money on.
First human spacewalker, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov: “Lifting my head I could see the curvature of the Earth's horizon. ’So the world really is round,’ I said softly to myself, as if the words came from somewhere deep in my soul. "

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Thork

Airline pilots program a flight management computer. Lord only knows what it computes but it undoubtedly factors for the earth being flat without the pilots even knowing.
VHF works well in a flat earth too. ::) LOS is just that. You want to see them from further away, you need to make the beacons more powerful.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 01:25:53 AM by Thork »

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Agnostic

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Kurt Gödel, the famous mathematician, explained that nothing can ultimately be demonstrated.

So I fail to see how Hawking could have "without doubt" demonstrated this or that, when famous mathematicians tell it is not possible.

Hawking is not a dishonnest guy, but he is human and is not that smart.

I think most people think he is a genius because he is paralyzed, and so people want to be nice with him.
"The earth is flat indeed. Saying it is a sphere was the worst mistake of our modern science." 1893. Pr. Orlando Ferguson, Academy of Science

"The world is flat." 2005. Thomas Friedman

Airline pilots program a flight management computer. Lord only knows what it computes but it undoubtedly factors for the earth being flat without the pilots even knowing.
VHF works well in a flat earth too. ::) LOS is just that. You want to see them from further away, you need to make the beacons more powerful.

Wrong.  Airline pilots rely on the computer for routine tasks, but they are trained, and use from time to time manual calculations.  If you think pilots are so dumb that all they do is get in a plane, boot up the computer and punch in some co-ordinates then leave the rest to the computer, then you rather arrogantly underestimate the ability and intelligence an airline pilot requires to get their wings.
First human spacewalker, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov: “Lifting my head I could see the curvature of the Earth's horizon. ’So the world really is round,’ I said softly to myself, as if the words came from somewhere deep in my soul. "

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Thork

Being as I have a commercial pilots license, I am well aware of what a pilot does and does not do. You rather arrogantly underestimated my ability and intelligence. I have my wings.

You are also wrong. They do just punch stuff in. An aircraft spends 99% of its time on autopilot. When the pilot is flying the plane, something went badly wrong.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 01:39:42 AM by Thork »

Being as I have a commercial pilots license, I am well aware of what a pilot does and does not do. You rather arrogantly underestimated my ability and intelligence. I have my wings.

You are also wrong. They do just punch stuff in. An aircraft spends 99% of its time on autopilot. When the pilot is flying the plane, something went badly wrong.
If you have never done it, I suggest, next time you are on an international flight, as well as relying on autopilot, manually plot your course, airspeed and time travelled, and compare it to both FET and RET maps, and show us the data.  This would be a very important support of the FET theory (or evidence against it).
First human spacewalker, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov: “Lifting my head I could see the curvature of the Earth's horizon. ’So the world really is round,’ I said softly to myself, as if the words came from somewhere deep in my soul. "

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Thork

For the reasons I illustrate here and here, providing that data would be worthless.

For the reasons I illustrate here and here, providing that data would be worthless.
On certain routes the difference in flying time for RET compared to FET can not be accounted for by headwinds and so forth.

If you really are a commercial airline pilot, then it simply confirms you as a troll.   Infact you are probably a composite character invented by a bunch of airline pilots having a good old laugh right now  ;D   The foil hat gives it way completely.
First human spacewalker, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov: “Lifting my head I could see the curvature of the Earth's horizon. ’So the world really is round,’ I said softly to myself, as if the words came from somewhere deep in my soul. "

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Thork

The foil hat is because we are playing an alien game in the social fora. You will notice many other users have alien avatars right now.
This post shows why I decided to change my avatar. The social element of this site has nothing to do with earth shape science.

I can assure you I am one person.

It can all be accounted for. RErs often make issues where there are none. People do not conduct lots of flights around the South Pole. Its a happy coincidence for the conspiracy that no one goes there.

The foil hat is because we are playing an alien game in the social fora. You will notice many other users have alien avatars right now.
This post shows why I decided to change my avatar. The social element of this site has nothing to do with earth shape science.

I can assure you I am one person.

It can all be accounted for. RErs often make issues where there are none. People do not conduct lots of flights around the South Pole. Its a happy coincidence for the conspiracy that no one goes there.
Sydney to Buenos Aires would probably be sufficient.  Or Auckland to Santiago.
First human spacewalker, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov: “Lifting my head I could see the curvature of the Earth's horizon. ’So the world really is round,’ I said softly to myself, as if the words came from somewhere deep in my soul. "

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Thork

The foil hat is because we are playing an alien game in the social fora. You will notice many other users have alien avatars right now.
This post shows why I decided to change my avatar. The social element of this site has nothing to do with earth shape science.

I can assure you I am one person.

It can all be accounted for. RErs often make issues where there are none. People do not conduct lots of flights around the South Pole. Its a happy coincidence for the conspiracy that no one goes there.
Sydney to Buenos Aires would probably be sufficient.  Or Auckland to Santiago.

Yeah, real popular flights. You done those ones? ::)

Nah.... I'm not that interested in spending thousands of dollars (and studying navigation) to prove something to you that I am quite satsfied is proved to me beyond a shadow of a doubt through many other evidences.

Especially when you'll tell me I'm a lier when I come back with the evidence  ;)
First human spacewalker, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov: “Lifting my head I could see the curvature of the Earth's horizon. ’So the world really is round,’ I said softly to myself, as if the words came from somewhere deep in my soul. "

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Thork

Nah.... I'm not that interested in spending thousands of dollars (and studying navigation) to prove something to you that I am quite satsfied is proved to me beyond a shadow of a doubt through many other evidences.

Especially when you'll tell me I'm a lier when I come back with the evidence  ;)

I'd probably make a better effort of spelling it though. :)

Nah.... I'm not that interested in spending thousands of dollars (and studying navigation) to prove something to you that I am quite satsfied is proved to me beyond a shadow of a doubt through many other evidences.

Especially when you'll tell me I'm a lier when I come back with the evidence  ;)

I'd probably make a better effort of spelling it though. :)
hey if this was a journalistic piece I'd have proof read it but since it's not, I'm putting in about as much effort as FE'ers do in developing their theories   :)
First human spacewalker, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov: “Lifting my head I could see the curvature of the Earth's horizon. ’So the world really is round,’ I said softly to myself, as if the words came from somewhere deep in my soul. "

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markjo

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Being as I have a commercial pilots license, I am well aware of what a pilot does and does not do. You rather arrogantly underestimated my ability and intelligence. I have my wings.

Seeing as you didn't seem to know anything about pilots using celestial navigation, I can only wonder as to the true value of your commercial pilot's license.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Thork

What a dumb thing to write. Pilots are not trained in celestial navigation. I know this to be a fact, because I have been trained as a pilot, but at no point was I trained in celestial navigation.

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markjo

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What a dumb thing to write. Pilots are not trained in celestial navigation. I know this to be a fact, because I have been trained as a pilot, but at no point was I trained in celestial navigation.

I didn't say that you were trained in celestial navigation.  I have not been trained in celestial navigation either.  However I am aware that pilots were trained in celestial navigation (among other lost arts) before the days of satellite navigation.  Seeing as you were unaware of even the historical use of celestial navigation in aviation, it makes me wonder how comprehensive your training really was.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Thork

Do the US marines learn how Roman soldiers used catapults, or do they not have comprehensive training? Take your strawmen elsewhere.

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berny_74

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Do the US marines learn how Roman soldiers used catapults, or do they not have comprehensive training? Take your strawmen elsewhere.

I pretty much guarantee that a US marine could explain what a catapult was though.  I did find it confounding that you had a belief that prior to modern navigation aids pilots flew willy nilly through the air. 

And

Airline pilots program a flight management computer. Lord only knows what it computes but it undoubtedly factors for the earth being flat without the pilots even knowing.
VHF works well in a flat earth too. ::) LOS is just that. You want to see them from further away, you need to make the beacons more powerful.

What about before the FMS in 1979?  And how about when the FMS loses its functionality?

Berny
Yes they even had automated periscope sextants for aircraft
To be fair, sometimes what FE'ers say makes so little sense that it's hard to come up with a rebuttal.
Moonlight is good for you.

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Thork

Do the US marines learn how Roman soldiers used catapults, or do they not have comprehensive training? Take your strawmen elsewhere.

I pretty much guarantee that a US marine could explain what a catapult was though.  I did find it confounding that you had a belief that prior to modern navigation aids pilots flew willy nilly through the air. 
And I know what celestial navigation is. Could a US marine explain how catapults are tuned musically by Romans for symmetrical power? Is that part of the training?

Airline pilots program a flight management computer. Lord only knows what it computes but it undoubtedly factors for the earth being flat without the pilots even knowing.
VHF works well in a flat earth too. ::) LOS is just that. You want to see them from further away, you need to make the beacons more powerful.

What about before the FMS in 1979? 
Are you suggesting that before 1979 all flights took place at night? And that beacons did not exist?

And how about when the FMS loses its functionality?
I told you before not to joke about that. >:(

Berny
Yes they even had automated periscope sextants for aircraft
What an expert. I don't know why they bother training us when people like Berny know it all already.