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Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)

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Sorrow_Scavenger

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Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« on: June 21, 2011, 09:55:50 PM »
Greetings.
I dont know enough about physics to debate convincingly. However, being a professional artist, I can put this expertise to the test.
 
I am referring to the last 2 diagrams in my title, the first being what everyone here sees.    Basicly, this is a direct challenge to one of the faqs wich is the following.

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Q: "Please explain sunrises and sunsets."

A: It is a perspective effect. The sun is just getting farther away: it looks like it is disappearing because everything gets smaller, and eventually disappears as it gets farther away.

This is not what I see. What I see is contained in the first diagram.   If both the sun and moon were in fact 32 miles diameter objects, hovering at 3200 miles from the ground,   they'll dissapear before even touching the horizon, after.  All of this after ACTUALLY getting smaller and smaller, where it would appear no bigger than a dot at some point.   

And why the moon doesnt actually look like a disk? Why cant we see it in perspective? I can also ask the same for the sun, but it is afterall a glowing "disk" of fire, wich might affect the shape we perceive.



 
Alternatively, it would be possible to create a  1:1 3d model, so we can see everything for ourself.

regards.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 09:44:36 AM by Sorrow_Scavenger »
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Tausami

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2011, 09:58:00 AM »
He raises a good point. I've actually been considering this while putting together my model, and can't figure out how to explain it. This definitely belongs here in Debate.
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Particle Person

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2011, 10:08:15 AM »
I've never understood this either. The only explanation I've seen is Tom's "perspective is not how it's taught in art class you don't understand".
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Sorrow_Scavenger

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2011, 10:19:18 AM »
Tsunamis:   Why did you deleted your post? I saw it  ;)  to late now.

You said  in your theory you have 2 suns, that actually rotates around the earth. 
How large would you define the size of the two suns then?  This is getting out of my field of expertise, but for being able to see the sun as we do now(same size), it would require really large proportions and vast distance..   It cannot be 32 miles, and I think you reject this also.

With such proportions, one of your 2 suns would lighten up the entire surface of earth when it's out...unless of course it acts like a giant flashlight, with a cone of light.   
 
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I've never understood this either. The only explanation I've seen is Tom's "perspective is not how it's taught in art class you don't understand".
It's true the eyes can plays trick on us.  But what ive done here is really basic perspective, that im sure we can capture with a 3d model.
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iwanttobelieve

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2011, 10:24:10 AM »
wow, amazing post.
i never thought about it that way. it would get smaller before it disapears.
tonight i will perform an experiment to disprove or prove your theory. I will get a disc object, such as a coin, put it arm length so it just a portion of the sun is visible . I will keep "tracking" the sun until it sets.
If the coin completely blocks out the sun before it sets, it prooves the sun is getting smaller as it is further away. If not, you are right and the FAQ is wrong yet again.
once again, amazing post.
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sillyrob

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2011, 10:28:02 AM »
This is actually the point I made in a different thread that observation alone cannot conclude a disc moon/sun. While it may not conclude that they're spherical, the way the sun and moon rise and set CANNOT be discs. Not even Bishop's bullshit cop-out of being taught incorrect perspective works. Actually, it does the opposite of what a disc would do. The sun and moon are larger than normal when they rise, they should be smaller in a FE model. I wasn't really ever able to catch a good set on the horizon where I grew up because there were mountains close in the west and the east was generally clearer.
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Around And About

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2011, 03:03:57 PM »
It's because physics perspective atmospheric refraction headlights art class.
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Quote from: New Earth on January 16, 2012, 12:37:41 AM
I'm not black nor a thug, I'm more like god who will bring 7 plagues of flat earth upon your ass.
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iwanttobelieve

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2011, 05:59:41 PM »
unfortunately clouds/rain tonight. will try for sunrise. Did Rowbothan or Master Lord Willmire every try this experiments? I would love to hear their results.
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sillyrob

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2011, 07:14:32 PM »
Is Lord Willmire related to Lord Wilmore?
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Particle Person

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2011, 07:25:29 PM »
Master Lord Willmire and Lord Wilmore are one.
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sillyrob

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2011, 07:32:22 PM »
Do normal people refer to him as Willmire, or only the crazy?
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Particle Person

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2011, 07:35:42 PM »
Only iwanttobelieve (and people mocking him).
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Tausami

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2011, 07:43:03 PM »
Quote from: Sorrow_Scavenger on June 22, 2011, 10:19:18 AM
Tsunamis:   Why did you deleted your post? I saw it  ;)  to late now.

I realized that it wouldn't work in a disk world.
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Sorrow_Scavenger

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2011, 09:00:07 PM »
While we wait for iwanttobelieve to wake up at 5 am and  test my "theory" wich is essentially a fact, here is another hole in this swiss cheeze.


unless these pictures proves to be part of a conspiracy, why half the sun is hidden behind the horizon?
It's because physics perspective atmospheric refraction headlights art class?



This is not to be confused with the classical case of the boat, sailing towards the horizon. THis only proves for now, that the sun is big enough to be seen at the outer edge  of the flatten earth, from anywhere in the world. And it also proves it rotates around the disk earth, instead of hovering. 
 
Now a problem arises. Whenever  there's a  sunset, 6.6 billions people should witness it simultaneously.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 09:02:00 PM by Sorrow_Scavenger »
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iwanttobelieve

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2011, 07:18:40 AM »
Sorry about the misspelling of Wilmire.
Im not the best speller.

And another cloudy morning, but I have assemble various sized metal circular discs, a pair of glasses that will block the suns rays to avoid cornea damage and a stopwatch to record time. If possible will try to take pictures with other hand.
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iwanttobelieve

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2011, 10:15:54 AM »
ok, this morning a beuatiful sunrise. so i did the test in reverse.
using an american quarter at arms length away until it just botted out the sun.
The FAQ says that as the sun gets farther away  (like a flock of seaguls) perspective make them vanish, just like the sun. So, the sun must get smaller. (perspective wise)
In reverse as it rises it should be at its smallest (perspective wise)

i had a nearly unobstructed view of the beuatiful sunrise over a large lake. as it cleared a shallow tree line I started the experiment. it was perflectly blotted out at arms length. ever 5 minutes for an hour i restested. same results.

Visually the sun was getting smaller (reverse of what it should be doing)perspective wise)
but the quarter blotted it out just the same way, never more never less.

so, the original poster is correct and i commend him for his theory which has now been proven.

the only bad thing is we need to come up of a new thoery as to why this experiment went this way. in a disc earth, how can the sun set and rise, cause the flock of seagull perspective thoery has been debunked.

please update the FAQ accordingly
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Sorrow_Scavenger

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2011, 07:58:54 PM »
Thanks for doing this Iwantobelieve,  you'Re a true sport :)
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the only bad thing is we need to come up of a new thoery as to why this experiment went this way. in a disc earth, how can the sun set and rise, cause the flock of seagull perspective thoery has been debunked.

correct me if im wrong, but doesn't it debunk the entire model?  At this point, only magic can explain this within a FE context.  I really tried hard coming up with models of my own(despise being RoEer), and cannot make it work.   It's almost frustrating.

Like I said, the only way this coud work is if everyone was contained within the same timezone, so that we all experiences one unique sunset/sunrise.
Could maybe work of the earth was dome shape, wich would defeat the whole purpose.  But now, gotta explain how it can cover more than just the middle portion of the earth. Maybe the flatearth woobles?
These suns cannot be spotlight. Otherwise some of us will see the sun in the middle of the night..It'll just appear like  the moon.
 
This is over guys, im sorry. I just see no way out of this one.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 08:27:58 PM by Sorrow_Scavenger »
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11cookeaw1

Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2011, 11:55:25 PM »
Quote from: Sorrow_Scavenger on June 21, 2011, 09:55:50 PM
Greetings.
I dont know enough about physics to debate convincingly. However, being a professional artist, I can put this expertise to the test.
 
I am referring to the last 2 diagrams in my title, the first being what everyone here sees.    Basicly, this is a direct challenge to one of the faqs wich is the following.

Quote
Q: "Please explain sunrises and sunsets."

A: It is a perspective effect. The sun is just getting farther away: it looks like it is disappearing because everything gets smaller, and eventually disappears as it gets farther away.

This is not what I see. What I see is contained in the first diagram.   If both the sun and moon were in fact 32 miles diameter objects, hovering at 3200 miles from the ground,   they'll dissapear before even touching the horizon, after.  All of this after ACTUALLY getting smaller and smaller, where it would appear no bigger than a dot at some point.   

And why the moon doesnt actually look like a disk? Why cant we see it in perspective? I can also ask the same for the sun, but it is afterall a glowing "disk" of fire, wich might affect the shape we perceive.



 
Alternatively, it would be possible to create a  1:1 3d model, so we can see everything for ourself.

regards.

The conspiracy employ wizards.
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merrickx

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2011, 03:19:30 AM »
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"so, the original poster is correct and i commend him for his theory which has now been proven."

I see the typical FE appeal now. Because you've used a mere coin and simple visual observation this theory has been "proven."

Quote
"the only bad thing is we need to come up of a new thoery as to why this experiment went this way. in a disc earth, how can the sun set and rise, cause the flock of seagull perspective thoery has been debunked."

It's like watching kids with a mock chemistry set. They're not using the instructions and they just keep coming up with a bunch of make believe that they want to work. Could you please refrain from dismissing information provided and use that information to form your next model/theory.
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Puttah

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2011, 07:47:49 AM »
Where are FES at?
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Quote from: Tausami on July 01, 2013, 12:31:58 PM
Scepti, this idiocy needs to stop and it needs to stop right now. You are making a mockery of this fine forum with your poor trolling. You are a complete disgrace.
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Sorrow_Scavenger

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2011, 08:17:13 AM »
I think they have mobilized all of their forces to work on the following (see faq)

Quote
UPDATE:The theory of Electromagnetic Acceleration is currently being developed and reviewed by members. Once completed, Electromagnetic Acceleration will be used as an alternative in explaining sunrises, sunsets and horizons for the dark energy model only.
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sillyrob

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2011, 08:20:29 AM »
Quote from: Sorrow_Scavenger on June 26, 2011, 08:17:13 AM
I think they have mobilized all of their forces to work on the following (see faq)

Quote
UPDATE:The theory of Electromagnetic Acceleration is currently being developed and reviewed by members. Once completed, Electromagnetic Acceleration will be used as an alternative in explaining sunrises, sunsets and horizons for the dark energy model only.
I could imagine this being quite hilarious.
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iwanttobelieve

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2011, 05:38:06 PM »
bumping for post of the year
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Particle Person

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2011, 06:50:28 PM »
I would like for Tom to explain this without referencing ENaG.
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Sorrow_Scavenger

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2011, 07:47:28 PM »
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I would like for Tom to explain this without referencing ENaG.
Mr Bishop has been avoiding this post like a plague.
He did however answered to a very similar post once,  by  posting a dead wiki page. It was an old post though.
But gawd, ive been craving to see what was in there. 

He could come back with this link that most of you already saw I believe. But I dont think it applies here. 
http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za32.htm

Even if they came up with an anti-sun to explain why we are tricked into thinking the sun crosses the horizon..nothing will explain why the sun and moon are always the same size. It's a dead end. I dont know how you can just go on after that, unless it is fanatism.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 07:56:51 PM by Sorrow_Scavenger »
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jrah

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Re: Why can't I see the sun and moon as such (drawing)
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2011, 01:22:14 AM »
Quote from: Particle Person on June 27, 2011, 06:50:28 PM
I would like for Tom to explain this without referencing ENaG.

Moonshrimp...
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James....That guy talks to Shrimp....on the moon....
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