The Third Celestial Body

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James

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The Third Celestial Body
« on: September 15, 2006, 11:44:13 AM »
Quote from: "The Flat-Out Truth - Robert J. Schadewald"
The moon shines by its own light and is not eclipsed by the earth. Rather, lunar eclipses are caused by an unseen dark body occasionally passing in front of the moon.


This particular issue came up in another thread in General Discussion, and I thought we should discuss it more thoroughly here.

I believe the unseen dark body to be an adequate explanation for the lunar phases, as well as solar and lunar eclipses.

I think that the FE element of this site (myself included) should come up with some more concrete theories about this. Maybe we should name it, too, as to my knowledge it's always just been referred to as "a dark body" or "a third object" or whatever. Thoughts?
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Erasmus

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Re: The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2006, 11:56:16 AM »
Quote from: "Dogplatter"
Maybe we should name it, too, as to my knowledge it's always just been referred to as "a dark body" or "a third object" or whatever. Thoughts?


How about "Xena", since that name's no longer taken? :)
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Re: The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2006, 12:13:50 PM »
Quote from: "Dogplatter"
Quote from: "The Flat-Out Truth - Robert J. Schadewald"
The moon shines by its own light and is not eclipsed by the earth. Rather, lunar eclipses are caused by an unseen dark body occasionally passing in front of the moon.


This particular issue came up in another thread in General Discussion, and I thought we should discuss it more thoroughly here.

I believe the unseen dark body to be an adequate explanation for the lunar phases, as well as solar and lunar eclipses.

I think that the FE element of this site (myself included) should come up with some more concrete theories about this. Maybe we should name it, too, as to my knowledge it's always just been referred to as "a dark body" or "a third object" or whatever. Thoughts?


Since you can see lunar features that are on the darkened portion of the moon, there can not be an interposing body, and the moon can not give off it's own light.

There can not be an interposing body, since you can see stars beside the moon in the area that would be occluded by the body during partial phases.

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James

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Re: The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2006, 12:15:39 PM »
Quote from: "Curious"

Since you can see lunar features that are on the darkened portion of the moon, there can not be an interposing body, and the moon can not give off it's own light.

There can not be an interposing body, since you can see stars beside the moon in the area that would be occluded by the body during partial phases.


I can't. Have you seen them?
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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etommytay

The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2006, 12:23:32 PM »
I've seen them and can confirm what he said is factual

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James

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The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2006, 12:32:47 PM »
Quote from: "etommytay"
I've seen them and can confirm what he said is factual


It's your word against mine. I've never seen them, I swear.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2006, 12:41:37 PM »
so you're saying if you haven't seen something its not there?
img]http://card.mygamercard.net/lastgame/Kamikazefish.png[/img]

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James

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The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2006, 12:46:14 PM »
Quote from: "KamikazeFish"
so you're saying if you haven't seen something its not there?


No, but why should I believe it's there? I can look at a crescent moon, see no stars in the "gap" and have no reason to doubt that there is a third object between it and me.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Erasmus

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Re: The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2006, 12:53:22 PM »
Quote from: "Curious"
Since you can see lunar features that are on the darkened portion of the moon, there can not be an interposing body, and the moon can not give off it's own light.


You are assuming that the object is perfectly opaque.  If it were merely a dark reddish filter, you would still be able to see features in the darkened part.

And, Dogplatter: I too can verify from personal experience that features of the darkened surface of the moon are still visible during a lunar eclipse.

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There can not be an interposing body, since you can see stars beside the moon in the area that would be occluded by the body during partial phases.


Again, if the object is only a filter, then it would not necessarily filter starlight and moonlight equally.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2006, 01:03:43 PM »
Could be strongly opaque, I'm unsure myself on this unkown planet.

Here are some names I liek for it:
Samebito - Samebito are the inhabitants of a vast underwater kingdom, so they have little contact with mankind. When a samebito does find itself on land, it is usually in some sort of trouble

Onibi - Another name for Hitodama which is the japaneese equivlent to "Will o' the wisp"

Kodama - Kodama are the nature spirits that live within all aspects of nature, primarily trees and rocks.

There is a certain mythical creature, that is just a black ball, that is really short, that I can't find the name of that, would be perfect.

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James

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The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2006, 01:04:50 PM »
How can such features possibly be visible if the Sun's light is obscured by the Earth? Light would have to travel through the Earth in order to illuminate parts of the moon's surface.

I've also just realised that there's no way, even in RE theory, to see stars "through the gap" in the crescent moon - that's pretty preposterous if you think about it even for a second. As for stars next to the moon, I again merely contest that I've never seen them in the place where the third body would be and nor has anyone else.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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James

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The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2006, 01:09:17 PM »
Maybe we can just make up a name, like "shadowtron" or something.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2006, 01:11:45 PM »
We could name it after Robowtham.

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Erasmus

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The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2006, 01:12:31 PM »
Quote from: "Dogplatter"
How can such features possibly be visible if the Sun's light is obscured by the Earth? Light would have to travel through the Earth in order to illuminate parts of the moon's surface.


The sun is not a point light source.  Some light travels around the Earth and hits the moon, but some is blocked.  Viewed from the surface of the moon, it would appear that the Earth has partially eclipsed the sun.

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I've also just realised that there's no way, even in RE theory, to see stars "through the gap" in the crescent moon


What gap are we talking about here?  Who brough it up?
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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James

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The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2006, 01:12:50 PM »
Quote from: "WisconsinAmmo"
We could name it after Robowtham.


Sweet idea! Is it gonna be "Sam" or the more formal "Rowbotham"?
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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etommytay

The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2006, 01:20:26 PM »
If there were a third object eclipsing the moon would it not stand to reason that it would eclipse the background stars on its path to eclipse the moon?

In fact...your theory is a much larger leap than accepting the truth (or conspiracy as you call it).  While I do have a telescope and it helps...the features on the dark side of the moon can be seen through most phases without the aide of one.  Although it might be hard to make out through your blinders...

The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2006, 01:26:01 PM »
Quote from: "Dogplatter"

No, but why should I believe it's there? I can look at a crescent moon, see no stars in the "gap" and have no reason to doubt that there is a third object between it and me.


To clarify, it's not in the gap where you can see stars.  That would be impossible unless the stars were in front of the moon, or there was something taking away the darken moon portions.

The Stars can occationally be seen, next to the moon in the region where the obstruction would extend beyond the moon when it does not cover it completely.

The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2006, 01:26:54 PM »
Rowbotham, I want to live their.

Re: The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2006, 01:32:40 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"

Again, if the object is only a filter, then it would not necessarily filter starlight and moonlight equally.


Since the hypotetical "filter" is supposed to also be responsible for solar eclipses, and spectrical analysis of the light from the sun closely matches many of the stars I don't see how that could work.

And the filter should affect the apparent color of any stars behind it, since it blocks some portion of visual light.  This would be fairly noticable, especially to astonomers who take careful note of the color of stars to determine their type.

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Erasmus

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Re: The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2006, 01:36:33 PM »
Quote from: "Curious"
Since the hypotetical "filter" is supposed to also be responsible for solar eclipses,


OR!  Not.  There could be a variety of filters.

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And the filter should affect the apparent color of any stars behind it, since it blocks some portion of visual light.


Says who?  Filters can be uniform.

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This would be fairly noticable, especially to astonomers


... who lie about everything else ...

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who take careful note of the color of stars to determine their type.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2006, 01:45:32 PM »
You can't see stars through the moon. What was being said was that, in a crescent moon, the occluding body should extend beyond the edge of the moon slightly, and block out some of the stars beside the moon. This does not happen, but as Erasmus said, it could be a frequency dependent filter, which could explain this

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James

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The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2006, 01:48:31 PM »
Quote from: "etommytay"
If there were a third object eclipsing the moon would it not stand to reason that it would eclipse the background stars on its path to eclipse the moon?


Sure, but I don't think we'd really notice, for example, on a starry night, and go "oh hey, 610002154 isn't visible tonight". I think it's quite possible that Rowbotham obscures stars all the time and we don't even notice.
 
Quote from: "etommytay"

In fact...your theory is a much larger leap than accepting the truth (or conspiracy as you call it).  While I do have a telescope and it helps...the features on the dark side of the moon can be seen through most phases without the aide of one.  Although it might be hard to make out through your blinders...


I've looked at the moon countless times, and I haven't seen stars close to it. According to RE theory, it should be hard to see those stars nearest to it in the sky because the Moon is reflecting a lot of the Sun's light in your direction, drawing your attention away from faint starlight.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Erasmus

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The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2006, 01:51:51 PM »
Quote from: "Dogplatter"
According to RE theory, it should be hard to see those stars nearest to it in the sky because the Moon is reflecting a lot of the Sun's light in your direction, drawing your attention away from faint starlight.


Very true... especially since lunar eclipses always occur near full moon.

Btw, why, according to FEism, do lunar eclipses always occur near full moon?
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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James

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The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2006, 01:59:06 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"

Very true... especially since lunar eclipses always occur near full moon.

Btw, why, according to FEism, do lunar eclipses always occur near full moon?


Do they?

Bear in mind that in this model, every New Moon is an "eclipse" of sorts.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Erasmus

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The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2006, 02:06:27 PM »
Quote from: "Dogplatter"
Do they?


Ah, right, we were talking about phases and not eclipses, sorry.

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Bear in mind that in this model, every New Moon is an "eclipse" of sorts.


Of sorts, but not of the sort I meant when I said "eclipses".  Every lunar eclipse -- when the moon is darkened over a period of hours rather than weeks -- occurs at full moon.  And yes, they do.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Re: The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2006, 02:59:54 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
OR!  Not.  There could be a variety of filters.

So more than one unseen body floating around?

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Says who?  Filters can be uniform.

But stars are not, and most object project a spectrum of color not a single wave lenth.  What you are proposing a a filter that blocks most of the mooss wavelengths, and none of the stars.

And the Sun's filter would likewise have to function this way, which is unlikely since the sun boradcasts our visual spectrum.  And since you can see the moon moving towards and away from a solar eclipse there is no reason to assume another filter.

Remember, stars are visable in the day time using good telescopes or by being in a deep place that blocks most of the sunlight (such as the bottom of the grand canyon when the sun is just right.

And for the fun of it, explain why the moon is always full during a solar eclipse, folllowing the filter idea, it should be possible for the sun. moon and filter to be nearly aligned so you could have a quarter moon causing an eclipse.

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... who lie about everything else ...

Adding all of the amature astonomers to the conspiracy?  Between the government, the astonomers, astonauts, wall guards, pilots, sailors and all I think there's more people in on the conspiracy than out of it.  :wink:

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James

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The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2006, 03:05:12 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"

Of sorts, but not of the sort I meant when I said "eclipses".  Every lunar eclipse -- when the moon is darkened over a period of hours rather than weeks -- occurs at full moon.  And yes, they do.


I was just trying to explain phases, but we can tackle eclipses too.

You said yourself that there could be several unseen bodies. The eclipse one is probably totally fast and zip in front of the Moon (or Sun) during an eclipse, explaining why often eclipses last only a matter of hours.

The phase body obviously moves in highly regular cycles, and moves so slow that to the human eye it appears still if observed over a time period of less than 24 hours.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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James

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Re: The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2006, 03:12:05 PM »
Quote from: "Curious"

Adding all of the amature astonomers to the conspiracy?  Between the government, the astonomers, astonauts, wall guards, pilots, sailors and all I think there's more people in on the conspiracy than out of it.  :wink:


The Conspiracy works in subtler ways than just buying out all amateur astronomers (we can agree this could never happen in reality). The higher scientific echelons are in on the lies, but think how your average astronomer would.

Let's say astronomer X looks into the night sky, but he can't see star #13013 (or whatever) because it's obscured by Rowbotham (or Rowbotham's potential eclipse-causing sister body). He'll just think: "That's odd, this star is not visible." He will automatically apply the Conspiracy Round Earth model to the problem, so he's not going to think "ah, must be obscured by an unseen dark body, the Earth is therefore flat", he'll think "it must be obscured by clouds or I must have the telescope improperly configured".

The Conspiracy counts on the idea that if we think the Earth is round, we will always assume that when we encounter evidence to the contrary, and never think about it any differently.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Erasmus

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Re: The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2006, 03:23:58 PM »
Quote from: "Curious"
But stars are not, and most object project a spectrum of color not a single wave lenth.  What you are proposing a a filter that blocks most of the mooss wavelengths, and none of the stars.


*shrug*  I don't see the problem.

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And the Sun's filter would likewise have to function this way, which is unlikely since the sun boradcasts our visual spectrum.  And since you can see the moon moving towards and away from a solar eclipse there is no reason to assume another filter.


So maybe the moon is the object causing solar eclipses?

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And for the fun of it, explain why the moon is always full during a solar eclipse,


I don't have to, because it's not true.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

The Third Celestial Body
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2006, 08:19:18 PM »
I posted something about this in another topic. Allow me to repost that and show why there could not plausibly be a third non-light emitting entity that "orbits" (I use quotations because orbit implies gravity, which FE'ers do not believe in) the earth.

Quote from: "I"
Well then, I guess this non-light emitting entity is completely visible just before a solar eclipse. And apparently it is the same size and shape as the moon. Not to mention it has the same surface features of the moon. Now that's a coincidence... and an assumption, considering that there is no evidence that said entity exists. Not to mention, this entity's orbit would have to constantly be changing speeds. Because it somehow covers the same part of the moon all night, but then speeds up once it is day so it can cover a larger portion of the moon the next night. And that's only when the moon is waxing. When it's waning, the orbit of the entity would have to slow down it's orbit each day.

 That would defy even the FE "science" in which the sun and moon travel at the same speed every day (or so I understand it).
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