The majority of FET is not zetetic

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General Disarray

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #90 on: June 13, 2011, 08:38:41 AM »
I make no speculation about what is pushing it, only affirming its visual movement.

Really? From the link in your sig:

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Universal Acceleration
In the Universal Acceleration model, all the celestial bodies including the earth are being accelerated in one uniform direction at roughly 9.81 m/s^2. The proposed method of propulsion is Dark Energy?.

There's an awful lot of speculation in there besides that. On that same page:

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Nexus Rings
The elliptical orbits observed by Astrophysicists on earth are caused by planets moving along transparent, magnetic nexus rings. All significant celestial objects move along individual nexus rings. In addition, smaller objects such as asteroids may be slightly influenced by the pull of nexus rings. Nexus rings exert a small force on each other, but because of the vast amount of nexus rings in the universe, the net forces on each nexus ring are negligible.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #91 on: June 13, 2011, 08:40:44 AM »
When you step off a chair there is absolutely nothing suggesting that you are being pulled or that something is pulling you. There is nothing to compel one to believe in the invisible and phenomenal.
Except the fact that I saw myself fall to the Earth. The other day I dropped my window AC unit, and I watched it fall to Earth. It would be stupid to think that it stayed there while the Earth came up at it. I watched it go from my window to the ground. Sounds like it fell to Earth to me. There is absolutely nothing suggesting that the Earth is being pushed up at you. There is nothing to compel one to believe in the invisible and phenomenal. And don't come at me with, "That's not first hand experience," because I was there and it happened.

Did you see the AC unit being pulled?

No. You did not. There was nothing you could see pulling the device. You cannot say "yes, I saw something invisible pulling the device." You cannot see invisible speculations. There is nothing suggesting that the device is being pulled.

During the time of the incident did you feel the earth pressing upwards against your feet at 1 g? If so, then it seems that there is 100% more evidence suggesting that the earth is moving upwards than there is for invisible speculations.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 08:54:27 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #92 on: June 13, 2011, 08:44:03 AM »
I make no speculation about what is pushing it, only affirming its visual movement.

Really? From the link in your sig:

Quote
Universal Acceleration
In the Universal Acceleration model, all the celestial bodies including the earth are being accelerated in one uniform direction at roughly 9.81 m/s^2. The proposed method of propulsion is Dark Energy?.

There's an awful lot of speculation in there besides that. On that same page:

Quote
Nexus Rings
The elliptical orbits observed by Astrophysicists on earth are caused by planets moving along transparent, magnetic nexus rings. All significant celestial objects move along individual nexus rings. In addition, smaller objects such as asteroids may be slightly influenced by the pull of nexus rings. Nexus rings exert a small force on each other, but because of the vast amount of nexus rings in the universe, the net forces on each nexus ring are negligible.

I did not write that. Those are not Zetetic thoughts.

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General Disarray

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #93 on: June 13, 2011, 08:56:55 AM »
Those are not Zetetic thoughts.

I'm glad we agree that the universal accelerator is not zetetic.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #94 on: June 13, 2011, 09:10:20 AM »
Those are not Zetetic thoughts.

I'm glad we agree that the universal accelerator is not zetetic.

The idea that something is moving the earth upwards, is Zetetic. One may call it the Earth Accelerator or the Universal Accelerator if they wish. We can affirm the visual upwards movement of the earth, but we cannot speculate as to what it is or the mechanism behind it.

Zetetics are diametrically opposed to speculation and hypothesis. Anyone expressing a flim flam speculation on invisible undiscovered phenomena is not expressing a Zetetic thought.

"Dark Energy" does not have empirical evidence behind it. Thus it must be discarded into disrepute.

"Nexus Rings" do not have empirical evidence behind it. Thus it must be discarded into disrepute

"Dark Matter" does not have empirical evidence behind it. Thus it must be discarded into disrepute.

"Gravitons" do not have empirical evidence behind it. Thus it must be discarded into disrepute.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 09:23:43 AM by Tom Bishop »

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General Disarray

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #95 on: June 13, 2011, 09:21:01 AM »
Same goes for the list in the OP.
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Harutsedo

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #96 on: June 13, 2011, 09:31:08 AM »
Is it just me, or is Tom being really hypocritical right now?
He claims that the Earth is being pushed, because he can see it.
We claim that the objects are being pulled, because we can see it being pulled. Yet he thinks we're in the wrong...
Quote from: Tom Bishop
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Tom Bishop

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #97 on: June 13, 2011, 09:33:51 AM »
Same goes for the list in the OP.

Agreed. Unfortunately some of our members have not read Chapter 1 of Earth Not a Globe.

Quote from: Harutsedo
Is it just me, or is Tom being really hypocritical right now?
He claims that the Earth is being pushed, because he can see it.
We claim that the objects are being pulled, because we can see it being pulled. Yet he thinks we're in the wrong...

You can't see the objects being pulled. You don't see anything pulling the objects.

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Harutsedo

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #98 on: June 13, 2011, 09:35:31 AM »
You can't see the objects being pulled. You don't see anything pulling the objects.

You can't see the Earth is being pushed. You don't see anything pushing the Earth.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
If you don't know, whenever you talk about it you're invoking the supernatural
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Unknown != Magic.

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Hessy

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #99 on: June 13, 2011, 09:37:28 AM »
ITT:  Tom knows what you see, think, feel, and observe.

Give it up, Tom.  I see a ball being pulled toward the Earth; you see the Earth rising to meet it.  Both observations are equally valid (despite your hyperbolic rants) and either may or may not be true. 

You claim you're abiding by the equivalence principle, but you're not.

...and if you're just trolling, I applaud you.

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Hessy

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #100 on: June 13, 2011, 09:38:04 AM »
You can't see the objects being pulled. You don't see anything pulling the objects.

Just like you can't see anything pushing objects (i.e. the Earth)?

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General Disarray

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #101 on: June 13, 2011, 09:45:50 AM »
Agreed. Unfortunately some of our members have not read Chapter 1 of Earth Not a Globe.

Tell that to your esteemed colleague James, he is perhaps the most notorious purveyor of theories and hypotheses on this site.
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Around And About

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #102 on: June 13, 2011, 10:24:13 AM »
Either Einstein is rolling in his grave or the entire planet is rotating around his corpse.
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Hessy

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #103 on: June 13, 2011, 11:41:52 AM »
Either Einstein is rolling in his grave or the entire planet is rotating around his corpse.

inb4Einstein was wrong about everything

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markjo

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #104 on: June 13, 2011, 12:06:55 PM »
It's absurd because you claim to be observing the invisible.

No, Tom.  We are claiming to observe the effects of the invisible.  There is a significant difference.

"Dark Energy" does not have empirical evidence behind it. Thus it must be discarded into disrepute.

Isn't dark energy the mechanism for the UA?  ???
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #105 on: June 13, 2011, 02:14:20 PM »
ITT:  Tom knows what you see, think, feel, and observe.

Give it up, Tom.  I see a ball being pulled toward the Earth; you see the Earth rising to meet it.  Both observations are equally valid (despite your hyperbolic rants) and either may or may not be true. 

You claim you're abiding by the equivalence principle, but you're not.

...and if you're just trolling, I applaud you.

The arguments you people are giving here is that both possibilities are equally valid. This is not true. Something invisible is not as equally valid as something visible.

I can SEE the earth moving upwards. I cannot SEE anything pulling anything.

The argument "just because you can't see something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist" is a lame argument that a mumbling shut-in would use to argue in favor of the ghosts or astrology. This is a weak argument. As empiricists we must discount it on grounds of parsimony.

Quote from: Markjo
No, Tom.  We are claiming to observe the effects of the invisible.  There is a significant difference.

A falsis principiis proficisci.

Quote from: Markjo
Isn't dark energy the mechanism for the UA?

Anyone who says that a mysterious, unobserved, and undiscovered phenomenon is the mechanism for the UA is not expressing a Zetetic thought.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 09:00:29 PM by Tom Bishop »

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General Disarray

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #106 on: June 13, 2011, 02:19:35 PM »
I like how you keep ignoring the fact that the entire earth does not accelerate at the same rate, therefore eliminating the possibility of the FE concept of Universal Acceleration.
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Harutsedo

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #107 on: June 13, 2011, 02:59:23 PM »
I can SEE the earth moving upwards. I cannot SEE anything pulling anything.

I can see objects falling. You see the Earth moving up. I call it gravitation, you call it UA. Both are zetetic. I don't get what you don't understand about that.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 03:03:02 PM by Harutsedo »
Quote from: Tom Bishop
If you don't know, whenever you talk about it you're invoking the supernatural
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Unknown != Magic.

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Hessy

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #108 on: June 13, 2011, 03:08:14 PM »
I can SEE the earth moving upwards. I cannot SEE anything pulling anything.

I don't understand -- you can see objects moving "upwards", but not "downwards"?  Is your vision limited to objects travelling in only one direction? ???

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #109 on: June 13, 2011, 05:26:38 PM »
I can SEE the earth moving upwards. I cannot SEE anything pulling anything.

I can see objects falling. You see the Earth moving up. I call it gravitation, you call it UA. Both are zetetic. I don't get what you don't understand about that.

One explanation is more empirical than the other. One explanation is visible and the other requires invisible speculations.

Say that I am standing in the middle of the street and a car hits me. I see the car run into me. I do not see anything pulling me towards the car. The most empirical explanation is that the car ran into me.

Say that I am standing on a chair. I walk off the edge and become inert. I see the earth run into me. I do not see anything pulling me towards the earth. The most empirical explanation is that the earth ran into me.

Say that I am holding out a bag of marbles. I feel the earth pressing up against my feet at 1g. I let go of the bag of marbles. I do not see anything pulling them towards the earth. The most empirical explanation is that the earth went upwards to meet them.

Why should I believe in the invisible when I have the visible as an alternative explanation?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 05:33:26 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Hessy

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #110 on: June 13, 2011, 05:48:57 PM »
You shouldn't blindly (no pun intended) accept whatever you see.  There are countless examples of phenomena that are much more complex/different than what the eye would let you know.

See: optical illusions.

Accepting what your eye wants you to think is the "simplest explanation" for a phenomenon is both ignorant and often incorrect.


...and once again, despite what you may think, I observe myself being pulled toward the Earth.  The fact that you try to refute that is hysterical and extremely stupid.

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Harutsedo

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #111 on: June 13, 2011, 06:07:26 PM »
One explanation is more empirical than the other. One explanation is visible and the other requires invisible speculations.

Say that I am standing in the middle of the street and a car hits me. I see the car run into me. I do not see anything pulling me towards the car. The most empirical explanation is that the car ran into me.

Say that I am standing on a chair. I walk off the edge and become inert. I see the earth run into me. I do not see anything pulling me towards the earth. The most empirical explanation is that the earth ran into me.

Say that I am holding out a bag of marbles. I feel the earth pressing up against my feet at 1g. I let go of the bag of marbles. I do not see anything pulling them towards the earth. The most empirical explanation is that the earth went upwards to meet them.

Why should I believe in the invisible when I have the visible as an alternative explanation?

Ok, I get it. Gravitation requires something invisible, while UA may or not be invisible. Tell me something, then. Why is it okay for you to hypothesize an otherwise visible force under the Earth which you can not see, but not for me to hypothesize there is an invisible force that we have demonstrated to exist?

ITT: Air does not exist.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 06:13:57 PM by Harutsedo »
Quote from: Tom Bishop
If you don't know, whenever you talk about it you're invoking the supernatural
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Unknown != Magic.

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Around And About

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #112 on: June 13, 2011, 06:08:24 PM »
One explanation is more empirical than the other. One explanation is visible and the other requires invisible speculations.

Say that I am standing in the middle of the street and the sun sets below the horizon. I see the sun set below the horizon. I do not see anything making the sun disappear. The most empirical explanation is that the sun set below the horizon.

Why should I believe in the invisible, like celestial gears or an anti-moon or bendy light or whatever else when I have the visible as an alternative explanation?

You don't say! That's a good point, Mr. B.
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Harutsedo

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #113 on: June 13, 2011, 06:09:49 PM »
Ha.

Tom is about to admit he thinks the Earth is round. He just doesn't know it yet.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 06:16:05 PM by Harutsedo »
Quote from: Tom Bishop
If you don't know, whenever you talk about it you're invoking the supernatural
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Unknown != Magic.

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markjo

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #114 on: June 13, 2011, 06:30:48 PM »
Quote from: Markjo
Isn't dark energy the mechanism for the UA?

Anyone who says that a mysterious and undiscovered phenomenon is the mechanism for the UA is not expressing a Zetetic thought.

I'm so glad that you feel that way, Tom.
Quote
What is pushing the Earth ever upwards?

The mechanism is presently unknown, but a placeholder title of "Dark Energy" has been given to the mechanism.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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sillyrob

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #115 on: June 13, 2011, 07:10:07 PM »
I can SEE the earth moving upwards. I cannot SEE anything pulling anything.

I can see objects falling. You see the Earth moving up. I call it gravitation, you call it UA. Both are zetetic. I don't get what you don't understand about that.

One explanation is more empirical than the other. One explanation is visible and the other requires invisible speculations.

Say that I am standing in the middle of the street and a car hits me. I see the car run into me. I do not see anything pulling me towards the car. The most empirical explanation is that the car ran into me.

Say that I am standing on a chair. I walk off the edge and become inert. I see the earth run into me. I do not see anything pulling me towards the earth. The most empirical explanation is that the earth ran into me.

Say that I am holding out a bag of marbles. I feel the earth pressing up against my feet at 1g. I let go of the bag of marbles. I do not see anything pulling them towards the earth. The most empirical explanation is that the earth went upwards to meet them.

Why should I believe in the invisible when I have the visible as an alternative explanation?
Your car explanation is stupid and you are dumb for using it. Anyone but Stevie Wonder can see that a car is moving. However, you CANNOT see that the Earth is moving upwards. In fact, the ground looks quite stationary to me, and it's kind of absurd to tell me that it is moving. In fact, I've never even felt the Earth pushing up on me. I have, however, felt a pull on an object I was holding.

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markjo

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #116 on: June 13, 2011, 07:37:41 PM »
Why should I believe in the invisible when I have the visible as an alternative explanation?

Tom, aren't you tired of beating this horse yet?  It's dead.  The Equivalence Principle killed it a long time ago.  Just let it be.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #117 on: June 13, 2011, 08:46:12 PM »
You shouldn't blindly (no pun intended) accept whatever you see.  There are countless examples of phenomena that are much more complex/different than what the eye would let you know.

See: optical illusions.

Accepting what your eye wants you to think is the "simplest explanation" for a phenomenon is both ignorant and often incorrect.

...and once again, despite what you may think, I observe myself being pulled toward the Earth.  The fact that you try to refute that is hysterical and extremely stupid.

That's the lame "Just because you can't see it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist" argument again.

Ok, I get it. Gravitation requires something invisible, while UA may or not be invisible. Tell me something, then. Why is it okay for you to hypothesize an otherwise visible force under the Earth which you can not see, but not for me to hypothesize there is an invisible force that we have demonstrated to exist?

I don't hypothesize an invisible force. I've said several times now that I do not speculate what may be moving the earth. But this does not negate the fact that I SEE the earth moving upwards when I step off a chair.

And where did you demonstrate the existence of gravity?

ITT: Air does not exist.

I've seen air. I can see it build up in the distance. I can see it on a foggy day. I can feel it fill my lungs when I breathe, and I can feel it blow against my face at the beach. There is plenty of empirical evidence for the existence of air.

There is ZERO evidence for the existence of graviton puller particles.

Quote from: Around and About
Say that I am standing in the middle of the street and the sun sets below the horizon. I see the sun set below the horizon. I do not see anything making the sun disappear. The most empirical explanation is that the sun set below the horizon.

Why should I believe in the invisible, like celestial gears or an anti-moon or bendy light or whatever else when I have the visible as an alternative explanation?

I've never seen the sun set below the horizon. When the sun sets it goes into the horizon. No one sees the sun go below it. The idea that the sun is below the horizon is an unsupported speculation.

I'm so glad that you feel that way, Tom.
Quote
What is pushing the Earth ever upwards?

The mechanism is presently unknown, but a placeholder title of "Dark Energy" has been given to the mechanism.

Notice how in that three year old thread I preface that the mechanism is unknown and that Dark Energy is a placeholder title. With my particular usage of the phrase in that thread I make no speculation on what the mechanism is. I make no claims of sub-atomic particles. I make no claims of Newtonian forces.  I do not use my imagination, as a Round Earther would, and imbue Dark Energy with special unobserved, undiscovered, or mysterious properties.

In that thread I am using Dark Energy as a placeholder title for an oft future mechanism and no more. While I affirm the upwards movement of the earth, I make no speculation on the driving mechanism behind it.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 09:34:18 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Harutsedo

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #118 on: June 13, 2011, 08:58:08 PM »
I don't hypothesize an invisible force. I've said several times now that I do not speculate what may be moving the earth.

And where did you demonstrate the existence of gravity?

That's right. You don't hypothesize an invisible force. You hypothesize a visible force. If it was invisible, it would be at the same as gravity. Since you claim it is not, it must be visible. And yes, it must be a force. (That's how things move) You might claim you are not saying anything about the mechanism behind it, but you are, and it is absurd. A visible force fits well with the elephant and turtle thing, doesn't it?

And quit pretending you don't know that we have evidence there are varying degrees of gravity around that Earth, as GD has mentioned.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
If you don't know, whenever you talk about it you're invoking the supernatural
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Unknown != Magic.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The majority of FET is not zetetic
« Reply #119 on: June 13, 2011, 09:22:21 PM »
Why should I believe in the invisible when I have the visible as an alternative explanation?

Tom, aren't you tired of beating this horse yet?  It's dead.  The Equivalence Principle killed it a long time ago.  Just let it be.

The equivalence principle has nothing to do with empirical arguments of visible vs. invisible, of emperical observation vs unobserved hypothesis. I am not arguing that an invisible fantasy mechanism cannot possibly pull things to the ground at a necessary rate. I am contrasting the possibilities and arguing on basis of ab absurdio.

We can see the earth is moving upwards to meet us when we step off our chair. This is a direct visual affirmation that the earth is moving upwards. We cannot see anything pulling bodies towards the earth. Your explanation is invisible, undetected, and mysterious.

Quote
That's right. You don't hypothesize an invisible force. You hypothesize a visible force. If it was invisible, it would be at the same as gravity. Since you claim it is not, it must be visible. And yes, it must be a force. (That's how things move) You might claim you are not saying anything about the mechanism behind it, but you are, and it is absurd. A visible force fits well with the elephant and turtle thing, doesn't it?

I haven't said anything about what might be pushing the earth from below. Obviously I've never been beneath the earth, so I could not say what mechanism pushes it.

I can SEE the upwards movement of the earth. This is how I know that it is moving upwards. I cannot SEE anything pulling anything. This is how I know that nothing is being pulled. Why should I believe something beyond human experience, when I have a perfectly good experience of the earth moving upwards?

You want us to neglect the observed and open up to the possibility of the paranormal!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 09:45:24 PM by Tom Bishop »