Holding Atmosphere in Place.

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Moon squirter

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Re: Holding Atmosphere in Place.
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2010, 12:02:28 PM »
Bishop's Ideal Gas Law. 

On a serious note, Tom:  Gas is classed as a fluid, and as such will tend to flow and expand to the space it is constrained in.   If the pressure is lower in some places, a gas will attempt to equalised.

In your model, it would equalise out into the "tundra" and be lost forever, simply because (as you've said), the pressure is lower !

Your examples only serve to further illustrate the point.

You've been hoist by your own petard, me thinks.

There's a difference between equalizing over the span of several feet and over the span of tens of thousands of miles. Like I've said, the Arctic and Tropical areas of the earth maintain their own high and low pressure environments for very long durations of time.

The slight deviations in pressure you speak of do not conform to your global earth pressure model.   Containing air in a vacuum is a world away from pressure deviations of 80 millibars, which are due to weather patterns.

Please research "Polar high pressure" for a direct illustration why you are wrong.
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Holding Atmosphere in Place.
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2010, 09:28:06 PM »
Bishop's Ideal Gas Law.  

On a serious note, Tom:  Gas is classed as a fluid, and as such will tend to flow and expand to the space it is constrained in.   If the pressure is lower in some places, a gas will attempt to equalised.

In your model, it would equalise out into the "tundra" and be lost forever, simply because (as you've said), the pressure is lower !

Your examples only serve to further illustrate the point.

You've been hoist by your own petard, me thinks.

There's a difference between equalizing over the span of several feet and over the span of tens of thousands of miles. Like I've said, the Arctic and Tropical areas of the earth maintain their own high and low pressure environments for very long durations of time.

The slight deviations in pressure you speak of do not conform to your global earth pressure model.   Containing air in a vacuum is a world away from pressure deviations of 80 millibars, which are due to weather patterns.

Please research "Polar high pressure" for a direct illustration why you are wrong.


Antarctica isn't a "high pressure" environment. Antarctica has the lowest pressure systems on earth. It most definitely is a low pressure environment.

Extreme Low Pressure in Antarctica

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Deceiver

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Re: Holding Atmosphere in Place.
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2010, 09:47:27 PM »
Bishop's Ideal Gas Law. 

On a serious note, Tom:  Gas is classed as a fluid, and as such will tend to flow and expand to the space it is constrained in.   If the pressure is lower in some places, a gas will attempt to equalised.

In your model, it would equalise out into the "tundra" and be lost forever, simply because (as you've said), the pressure is lower !

Your examples only serve to further illustrate the point.

You've been hoist by your own petard, me thinks.

There's a difference between equalizing over the span of several feet and over the span of tens of thousands of miles. Like I've said, the Arctic and Tropical areas of the earth maintain their own high and low pressure environments for very long durations of time.

The slight deviations in pressure you speak of do not conform to your global earth pressure model.   Containing air in a vacuum is a world away from pressure deviations of 80 millibars, which are due to weather patterns.

Please research "Polar high pressure" for a direct illustration why you are wrong.


Antarctica isn't a "high pressure" environment. Antarctica has the lowest pressure systems on earth. It most definitely is a low pressure environment.

Extreme Low Pressure in Antarctica

Low pressure is relative. Below is a map of a 15 year average of global atmospheric pressure at sea level. For land above sea level, scientists used the power of maths to calculate pressures.



Notice that the equator is a low pressure zone... and the area immediately surrounding the edge of antarctica is also a low pressure zone. In case it wasn't painfully obvious, the air immediately on antarctica has higher pressures than surrounding areas.... These match up with atmospheric circulation and convergence patterns (hadley cells, polar cells, etc). Air sinks in places, it also rises in places, very predictably. The pressure definitely DOES NOT decrease from the north to the south, or even from the equator to both the north and south. Also, notice that the average difference is significantly less than even 5%. Data is only useful when viewed collectively and in context.

Dig much deeper and the hole's going to fall in on you Tom.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 09:54:24 PM by Deceiver »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Holding Atmosphere in Place.
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2010, 09:53:17 PM »
Actually, the higher numbers indicate High Pressure and lower numbers indicate Low Pressure.

Why would low pressure zone be associated with Antarctica if pressure had nothing to do with heat or cold?

Why don't the tropics and Antarctica "balance out" if its natural for Low and High Pressure systems to equalize? Weren't we just told that the Atmospheric Lip Hypothesis couldn't work since the atmosphere would just "balance out"?

Clearly, temperature is related to pressure, and clearly, environments can and do maintain their own pressure systems in relation to the ambient temperature.

Seems like the Atmospheric Lip Hypothesis is valid and the RE'ers petty antics are not.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 09:55:19 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Deceiver

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Re: Holding Atmosphere in Place.
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2010, 10:03:34 PM »
Actually, the lower numbers indicate Low Pressure.

Why would low pressure zone be associated with Antarctica if pressure had nothing to do with heat or cold?

Why don't the tropics and Antarctica "balance out" if its natural for Low and High Pressure systems to equalize? Weren't we just told that the Atmospheric Lip Hypothesis couldn't work since the atmosphere would just "balance out"?

Clearly, temperature is related to pressure, and clearly, environments can and do maintain their own pressure systems in relation to the ambient temperature.

Seems like the Atmospheric Lip Hypothesis is valid and the RE'ers petty antics are not.

Let me help you out Tom, because you clearly missed the point of my post. You've been saying that the highest pressure should be somewhere along the equator (spotlight shines there mostly, so more heat, thus more pressure). You also say that the pressure should slowly drop as you go outwards towards antarctica, until eventually the temperatures are so low that pressure is sufficiently low as to keep the atmosphere in.

But in the real world that isn't what's going on. The hottest spot, the equator, has the highest temperatures, but has lower pressures than the cooler subtropics because the air is rising. Antarctica, on the other hand, has cold, dense air travelling downwards on its center, so it's pressure is higher than the immediate surrounding area which is somewhat warmer. The bottom edge of antarctica has a higher pressure than the outer region of antarctica. So sure, it has a lower pressure than say, the equator, but it still has a higher pressure than the coast does. The system can't equalize, because there heat isn't equally spread out across the entire earth (round or flat). So air must constantly move. The hot air rises and becomes cold, while the cold air moves horizontally and becomes warmer. That air then rises and gets replaced by colder air underneath... cycle repeats ad nauseum. If incoming solar radiation all of a sudden stopped adding heat to the system or was equal at every point on the earth, then over time the pressures and temperatures would balance out.

So when you said
"Stunningly clear examples that Heat is associated with High Pressure and Cold is associated with Low Pressure."
You were dead wrong. Your oven and fridge hardly represent anything close to an atmospheric system and only apply to closed systems where volume is held constant.

Winds and pressure do not occupy a closed container and are more complicated than a simple temperature relationship given in Boyle's law. Since you missed out on 4th grade science, here's a diagram that explains perfectly why certain pressures are located at certain spots, and why temperatures cause circulation.


« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 11:20:43 PM by Deceiver »

Re: Holding Atmosphere in Place.
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2010, 05:48:59 AM »
Why don't the tropics and Antarctica "balance out" if its natural for Low and High Pressure systems to equalize? Weren't we just told that the Atmospheric Lip Hypothesis couldn't work since the atmosphere would just "balance out"?



They're mostly stuck with what the have thanks to receiving less intense sunlight, though differing air pressures do come up and fuel our weather system.  Regions like the actual antarctic don't have an effectively endless volume well of gases to dip into when spaces need filling, as your model requires.

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11cookeaw1

Re: Holding Atmosphere in Place.
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2011, 04:44:56 AM »
The coldness itself keeps the pressures low. For example, it's well known that the environment of the Arctic and North Pole is generally a low-pressure environment. Low pressure weather systems exist in the Arctic in abundance. But how could this be, if the Arctic is surrounded from all sides by tropical High Pressure systems?

What the Hell are you talking about?  Like just about everything else, air gets more dense as it gets colder resulting in higher pressure, not lower.

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-pressure_area
High-pressure areas are generally associated with cooler, drier air as well as clearing skies due to their formation within areas of atmospheric subsidence, or areas of large scale air descent. The strongest high-pressure areas are associated with arctic air masses during the winter, which modify and weaken once they move over relatively warmer water bodies.

That Wikipedia article is wrong. Cold is associated with Low Pressure, not the other way around.

There are various articles on the internet which mix up this concept.

Apt examples,

- Open your refrigerator or freezer door. Does air rush in, or out?

- Preheat your oven to 400 degrees Farinheit and open the door. Does the air rush in, or out?

- Wrap a sheet of syran wrap across a bowl of water (or even an empty bowl) and put it in the microwave for several minutes. Does the syran wrap billow upwards in a bubble, or get sucked in like a crater?

Stunningly clear examples that Heat is associated with High Pressure and Cold is associated with Low Pressure.
He's actually right for once, pressure is proportional to heat times density.