Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« on: May 23, 2011, 04:46:48 PM »
When looking at a diagram posted by Tom to explain retrograde motion, I noticed that the diagram that was posted not only failed to explain retrograde motion as we see it on earth, if it were corrected it would need to include Epicycles, which are inaccurate when it comes to predicting the location of the planets in the night sky, and they also make for an extremely complicated orbital pattern as multiple epicycles are needed for some of the planets.  This has lead me to believe that the sun is in fact the center of the solar system with the earth orbiting it as one of the other planets, as this is a much simpler and much more accurate model for predicting the location of the planets in the night sky.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2011, 05:00:06 PM »
When looking at a diagram posted by Tom to explain retrograde motion, I noticed that the diagram that was posted not only failed to explain retrograde motion as we see it on earth

How does the diagram fail to explain retrograde motion as seen on earth?

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2011, 05:14:34 PM »
When looking at a diagram posted by Tom to explain retrograde motion, I noticed that the diagram that was posted not only failed to explain retrograde motion as we see it on earth

How does the diagram fail to explain retrograde motion as seen on earth?

I posted an explanation in the other thread, but ill do so again here.  When we see retrograde motion on earth, the planet moves forwards, then backwards, then forwards, but it does not cross its own path.  it looks like a backwards S.  The model in the wiki shows the planet and the sun over the earth, with the planets orbiting the sun.   If this were the case, then we would see the planets move in a pattern that crossed its own path, like a loop on a roller coaster. 

if you stay with the same model, (with the sun over the earth)  you would need to extend the orbits of the planets beyond the circumference of the earth, so that the complete of the planet around the sun is not viewed(to avoid the loop in the sky).  But if you extend the orbit out that far, there will be no retrograde motion observed, which will mean that Epicycles upon epicycles will need to be added in so that the model is even close to accurate.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2011, 08:23:05 PM »
I posted an explanation in the other thread, but ill do so again here.  When we see retrograde motion on earth, the planet moves forwards, then backwards, then forwards, but it does not cross its own path.  it looks like a backwards S.  The model in the wiki shows the planet and the sun over the earth, with the planets orbiting the sun.   If this were the case, then we would see the planets move in a pattern that crossed its own path, like a loop on a roller coaster.

We do see the planets move in a loop like a roller coaster.


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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2011, 08:27:22 PM »
I posted an explanation in the other thread, but ill do so again here.  When we see retrograde motion on earth, the planet moves forwards, then backwards, then forwards, but it does not cross its own path.  it looks like a backwards S.  The model in the wiki shows the planet and the sun over the earth, with the planets orbiting the sun.   If this were the case, then we would see the planets move in a pattern that crossed its own path, like a loop on a roller coaster.

We do see the planets move in a loop like a roller coaster.



Yes but not always. If the planets were dirrectly overhead we would not see an s pattern.  In order for that to happen the planets must be in the same orbital plane as us.  If they are far enough out to be in the same orbital plane as us ten you would need epicycles.  So yes,  in re you can see the loop,  but in FE you should only see loops.

Also it is quite clear that the brightness of the planet increases towards the center of the circle, Exactly the point at which the earth should be closest according to the RE model.  Add on to that the extremely odd orbital pattern that this produces (orbiting at a super high velocity for a short period of time, then at a much slower rate for a long period of time) and its quite clear that the model that FE uses is quite inaccurate.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 08:42:50 PM by OrbisNonSufficit »

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Moon squirter

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Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2011, 04:49:31 AM »
I posted an explanation in the other thread, but ill do so again here.  When we see retrograde motion on earth, the planet moves forwards, then backwards, then forwards, but it does not cross its own path.  it looks like a backwards S.  The model in the wiki shows the planet and the sun over the earth, with the planets orbiting the sun.   If this were the case, then we would see the planets move in a pattern that crossed its own path, like a loop on a roller coaster.

We do see the planets move in a loop like a roller coaster.



ALERT!  ALERT!

The picture Tom used originates from NASA
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2011, 05:54:51 AM »
ALERT!  ALERT!

The picture Tom used originates from NASA
And has been presented as a proof by contradiction. What's the problem with that?
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

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markjo

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Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2011, 06:12:57 AM »
ALERT!  ALERT!

The picture Tom used originates from NASA
And has been presented as a proof by contradiction. What's the problem with that?
???  What is the picture supposed to contradict?  Are you suggesting that retrograde motion is just another conspiracy lie?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2011, 12:23:19 PM »
ALERT!  ALERT!

The picture Tom used originates from NASA
And has been presented as a proof by contradiction. What's the problem with that?

It proves nothing besides what I already knew.  Yes the loop is possible in both models,  that's not the issue,  the issue is the s shaped one that we see quite often,  that is not possible in the FE model.

Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2011, 04:03:57 PM »
It's not even necessary to get into the retrograde motions of the planets and other more complex facts to make the whole FET regarding the solar system fall flat on its face.  They say that the sun is about 3,000 miles above the earth and moving horizontally, parallel to the earth's flat surface, and that is clearly not possible.  Not only would the sun never rise or set (it would merely appear lower in the sky) but it would shrink as it moved away. Have any of you seen the sun shrink in the sky as it supposedly moved away?

I brought this up in another thread but was completely ignored.  The sun appears the same exact size in the sky at noon as it does when it's sinking on the horizon.

So, just observing the sky form your back yard reveals a sun that clearly is not moving in the horizontal manner that FET claims.

Again, here's a quick animation I made demonstrating how the sun (due to perspective) would shrink to a tiny pin prick by the time it even started to get close to the horizon.  I can't believe it's needed but FE folks seem to have a hard time visualizing how completely impossible their theories are right off the bat.
files.me.com/pgreenstone/zc9hrq.mov

Also, in order for it to even come close to reaching the horizon the sun would have to move so extremely far out horizontally from the earth's supposed flat disk that the whole earth would end up in darkness.  The speed required would also make noon go by in a flash as twilight lingered on for nearly the entire rest of the day.  Again, even that is beyond the simple observable fact that the sun does not shrink in the sky... ever.

You guys really live this Irony thing, don't you?

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2011, 04:29:24 PM »
It's not even necessary to get into the retrograde motions of the planets and other more complex facts to make the whole FET regarding the solar system fall flat on its face.  They say that the sun is about 3,000 miles above the earth and moving horizontally, parallel to the earth's flat surface, and that is clearly not possible.  Not only would the sun never rise or set (it would merely appear lower in the sky) but it would shrink as it moved away. Have any of you seen the sun shrink in the sky as it supposedly moved away?

I brought this up in another thread but was completely ignored.  The sun appears the same exact size in the sky at noon as it does when it's sinking on the horizon.

So, just observing the sky form your back yard reveals a sun that clearly is not moving in the horizontal manner that FET claims.

Again, here's a quick animation I made demonstrating how the sun (due to perspective) would shrink to a tiny pin prick by the time it even started to get close to the horizon.  I can't believe it's needed but FE folks seem to have a hard time visualizing how completely impossible their theories are right off the bat.
files.me.com/pgreenstone/zc9hrq.mov


Also, in order for it to even come close to reaching the horizon the sun would have to move so extremely far out horizontally from the earth's supposed flat disk that the whole earth would end up in darkness.  The speed required would also make noon go by in a flash as twilight lingered on for nearly the entire rest of the day.  Again, even that is beyond the simple observable fact that the sun does not shrink in the sky... ever.

You guys really live this Irony thing, don't you?


Actually that has been brought up many times and answered, they believe that the distortion on the sun due to the atmosphere will make it appear larger as it gets further away.  At which it meets the horizon which is a finite distance not an infinite distance like the model that you made.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 04:38:59 PM by OrbisNonSufficit »

Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2011, 06:21:38 PM »
It's not even necessary to get into the retrograde motions of the planets and other more complex facts to make the whole FET regarding the solar system fall flat on its face.  They say that the sun is about 3,000 miles above the earth and moving horizontally, parallel to the earth's flat surface, and that is clearly not possible.  Not only would the sun never rise or set (it would merely appear lower in the sky) but it would shrink as it moved away. Have any of you seen the sun shrink in the sky as it supposedly moved away?

I brought this up in another thread but was completely ignored.  The sun appears the same exact size in the sky at noon as it does when it's sinking on the horizon.

So, just observing the sky form your back yard reveals a sun that clearly is not moving in the horizontal manner that FET claims.

Again, here's a quick animation I made demonstrating how the sun (due to perspective) would shrink to a tiny pin prick by the time it even started to get close to the horizon.  I can't believe it's needed but FE folks seem to have a hard time visualizing how completely impossible their theories are right off the bat.
files.me.com/pgreenstone/zc9hrq.mov


Also, in order for it to even come close to reaching the horizon the sun would have to move so extremely far out horizontally from the earth's supposed flat disk that the whole earth would end up in darkness.  The speed required would also make noon go by in a flash as twilight lingered on for nearly the entire rest of the day.  Again, even that is beyond the simple observable fact that the sun does not shrink in the sky... ever.

You guys really live this Irony thing, don't you?


Actually that has been brought up many times and answered, they believe that the distortion on the sun due to the atmosphere will make it appear larger as it gets further away.  At which it meets the horizon which is a finite distance not an infinite distance like the model that you made.

Errr...  Do they have a theoretical model for this lens effect that would make that possible, even if the atmosphere were composed of any material they can imagine?  Optics that can scale down the sun perfectly in circular proportions they whole way to the horizon and maintaining the exact visual size at all times?  And that can do this optical feat while keeping the sun's arc across the sky at a perfectly constant pace that you can tell time by?

That's not an answer!  That's nothing more than a response... like, say, a grunt or a "Because I say so". 

I know I'm wasting my time even trying.  I've seen plenty of others try just the same and better.  I'm certain 99% of the FE people here are either just playing around or are having a game of irony for the hell of it.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2011, 06:57:43 PM »
It's not even necessary to get into the retrograde motions of the planets and other more complex facts to make the whole FET regarding the solar system fall flat on its face.  They say that the sun is about 3,000 miles above the earth and moving horizontally, parallel to the earth's flat surface, and that is clearly not possible.  Not only would the sun never rise or set (it would merely appear lower in the sky) but it would shrink as it moved away. Have any of you seen the sun shrink in the sky as it supposedly moved away?

I brought this up in another thread but was completely ignored.  The sun appears the same exact size in the sky at noon as it does when it's sinking on the horizon.

So, just observing the sky form your back yard reveals a sun that clearly is not moving in the horizontal manner that FET claims.

Again, here's a quick animation I made demonstrating how the sun (due to perspective) would shrink to a tiny pin prick by the time it even started to get close to the horizon.  I can't believe it's needed but FE folks seem to have a hard time visualizing how completely impossible their theories are right off the bat.
files.me.com/pgreenstone/zc9hrq.mov


Also, in order for it to even come close to reaching the horizon the sun would have to move so extremely far out horizontally from the earth's supposed flat disk that the whole earth would end up in darkness.  The speed required would also make noon go by in a flash as twilight lingered on for nearly the entire rest of the day.  Again, even that is beyond the simple observable fact that the sun does not shrink in the sky... ever.

You guys really live this Irony thing, don't you?


Actually that has been brought up many times and answered, they believe that the distortion on the sun due to the atmosphere will make it appear larger as it gets further away.  At which it meets the horizon which is a finite distance not an infinite distance like the model that you made.

Errr...  Do they have a theoretical model for this lens effect that would make that possible, even if the atmosphere were composed of any material they can imagine?  Optics that can scale down the sun perfectly in circular proportions they whole way to the horizon and maintaining the exact visual size at all times?  And that can do this optical feat while keeping the sun's arc across the sky at a perfectly constant pace that you can tell time by?

That's not an answer!  That's nothing more than a response... like, say, a grunt or a "Because I say so". 

I know I'm wasting my time even trying.  I've seen plenty of others try just the same and better.  I'm certain 99% of the FE people here are either just playing around or are having a game of irony for the hell of it.

No, but its up to you to prove them wrong on these forums as far as i can tell.  Thats why i picked this topic, its easy to just prove what they are saying is impossible.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2011, 07:38:43 PM »
ALERT!  ALERT!

The picture Tom used originates from NASA.  
And has been presented as a proof by contradiction. What's the problem with that?

It proves nothing besides what I already knew.  Yes the loop is possible in both models,  that's not the issue,  the issue is the s shaped one that we see quite often,  that is not possible in the FE model.

Yes, it's possible. Look up a Ptolemaic System Simulator which simulates the movements of circles moving around circles.

http://grmath4.phpnet.us/interact/ptolemy/ptolemaic.swf

If you adjust the variables you can make the planets move in lots of different shapes.

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markjo

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Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2011, 07:57:26 PM »
Yes, it's possible. Look up a Ptolemaic System Simulator which simulates the movements of circles moving around circles.

http://grmath4.phpnet.us/interact/ptolemy/ptolemaic.swf

If you adjust the variables you can make the planets move in lots of different shapes.

First of all, the Ptolemaic System is an RE system.  Secondly, the earth is not at the center of the Ptolemaic System.
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ptolemaic_elements.svg

A simple illustration showing the basic elements of Ptolemaic astronomy. It shows a planet rotating on an epicycle which is itself rotating around a deferent inside a crystalline sphere. The center of the system is marked with an X, and the earth is slightly off of the center. Opposite the earth is the equant point, which is what the planetary deferent would actually rotate around. Distances have been exaggerated as has the simplicity for the purposes of illustration.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2011, 09:19:53 PM »
Yes, it's possible. Look up a Ptolemaic System Simulator which simulates the movements of circles moving around circles.

http://grmath4.phpnet.us/interact/ptolemy/ptolemaic.swf

If you adjust the variables you can make the planets move in lots of different shapes.

First of all, the Ptolemaic System is an RE system.  Secondly, the earth is not at the center of the Ptolemaic System.

I posted the link to demonstrate the shapes that can be made when one circle is rotating around another circle. I wasn't proposing a system of epicycles and deferents.

Of course in the FE version of things the planet would be rotating around the sun, which in turn rotates around the Northern Hub.

Ie., the image at the bottom of this page: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=The+Planets
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 09:22:19 PM by Tom Bishop »

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2011, 09:37:16 PM »
Yes, it's possible. Look up a Ptolemaic System Simulator which simulates the movements of circles moving around circles.

http://grmath4.phpnet.us/interact/ptolemy/ptolemaic.swf

If you adjust the variables you can make the planets move in lots of different shapes.

First of all, the Ptolemaic System is an RE system.  Secondly, the earth is not at the center of the Ptolemaic System.

I posted the link to demonstrate the shapes that can be made when one circle is rotating around another circle. I wasn't proposing a system of epicycles and deferents.

Of course in the FE version of things the planet would be rotating around the sun, which in turn rotates around the Northern Hub.

Ie., the image at the bottom of this page: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=The+Planets

If both the sun and the planet are over the earth (within its circumference) then retrograde motion will not take the shape of an S.  If they are both outside, like the Ptolemaic system, then yes many shapes are possible.  What you posted is not the the same as that.  The only reason we are able to see this shape is because we are on roughly the same plane as the other planets.  Its like viewing the track of a roller coaster loop from the base, you can see that the path doesn't actually cross itself, its just goes right next to itself.  If we are underneath the planets, we are only able to get the view from one perspective.  When i look at the model that you just posted for the Ptolemaic system, i did not see an option for a 32 mile diameter sun hovering directly over the earth, and that option would change what we see dramatically.  Also that is not the view from the earth, thats the view from space.

So you have a few options.  You can move the sun and the planets away from the earth, then retrograde motion will make sense as an S.  You can add epicycles to the planets and move them away from the earth, and then retrograde motion will make sense as an S.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 09:45:56 PM by OrbisNonSufficit »

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markjo

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Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2011, 06:32:12 AM »
Yes, it's possible. Look up a Ptolemaic System Simulator which simulates the movements of circles moving around circles.

http://grmath4.phpnet.us/interact/ptolemy/ptolemaic.swf

If you adjust the variables you can make the planets move in lots of different shapes.

First of all, the Ptolemaic System is an RE system.  Secondly, the earth is not at the center of the Ptolemaic System.

I posted the link to demonstrate the shapes that can be made when one circle is rotating around another circle. I wasn't proposing a system of epicycles and deferents.

Of course in the FE version of things the planet would be rotating around the sun, which in turn rotates around the Northern Hub.

Ie., the image at the bottom of this page: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=The+Planets

Then perhaps you should have linked to a FE based simulator.  Oh, wait.  You can't because one doesn't exist.  Sounds like another opportunity for you, or another FE "researcher", to develop one and further the credibility FET immeasurably.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2011, 02:24:52 PM »
Yes, it's possible. Look up a Ptolemaic System Simulator which simulates the movements of circles moving around circles.

http://grmath4.phpnet.us/interact/ptolemy/ptolemaic.swf

If you adjust the variables you can make the planets move in lots of different shapes.

First of all, the Ptolemaic System is an RE system.  Secondly, the earth is not at the center of the Ptolemaic System.

I posted the link to demonstrate the shapes that can be made when one circle is rotating around another circle. I wasn't proposing a system of epicycles and deferents.

Of course in the FE version of things the planet would be rotating around the sun, which in turn rotates around the Northern Hub.

Ie., the image at the bottom of this page: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=The+Planets

Then perhaps you should have linked to a FE based simulator.  Oh, wait.  You can't because one doesn't exist.  Sounds like another opportunity for you, or another FE "researcher", to develop one and further the credibility FET immeasurably.

I'll do it. Where can I find a detailed description of the solar system according to FET? The northern hub is the top of the Earth, right?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 02:27:48 PM by Harutsedo »
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If you don't know, whenever you talk about it you're invoking the supernatural
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Unknown != Magic.

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berny_74

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Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2011, 04:20:48 PM »
I'll do it. Where can I find a detailed description of the solar system according to FET? The northern hub is the top of the Earth, right?

Nope the Southern hub is the top of the Earth.

Berny
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To be fair, sometimes what FE'ers say makes so little sense that it's hard to come up with a rebuttal.
Moonlight is good for you.

Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2011, 04:39:01 PM »
I'll do it. Where can I find a detailed description of the solar system according to FET? The northern hub is the top of the Earth, right?

Nope the Southern hub is the top of the Earth.

Berny
Has Spoken


Haha. Just trying to get the terminology straight.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
If you don't know, whenever you talk about it you're invoking the supernatural
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Unknown != Magic.

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berny_74

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Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2011, 04:42:27 PM »
I'll do it. Where can I find a detailed description of the solar system according to FET? The northern hub is the top of the Earth, right?

Nope the Southern hub is the top of the Earth.

Berny
Has Spoken


Haha. Just trying to get the terminology straight.

Yes you'll find the Amundsen?Scott South Pole Station and the land of Antarctica the very centre.  The Rim and ice-wall are the endless arctic ice-caps.

Berny
Has yet spoken again
To be fair, sometimes what FE'ers say makes so little sense that it's hard to come up with a rebuttal.
Moonlight is good for you.

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Tausami

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Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2011, 04:53:13 PM »
I'll do it. Where can I find a detailed description of the solar system according to FET? The northern hub is the top of the Earth, right?

The round earth doesn't have a top. It's a sphere.

Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2011, 04:55:44 PM »
I'll do it. Where can I find a detailed description of the solar system according to FET? The northern hub is the top of the Earth, right?

The round earth doesn't have a top. It's a sphere.

I'm going to be simulating a flat earth.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
If you don't know, whenever you talk about it you're invoking the supernatural
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Unknown != Magic.

*

Tom Bishop

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Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2011, 05:28:51 PM »
Yes, it's possible. Look up a Ptolemaic System Simulator which simulates the movements of circles moving around circles.

http://grmath4.phpnet.us/interact/ptolemy/ptolemaic.swf

If you adjust the variables you can make the planets move in lots of different shapes.

First of all, the Ptolemaic System is an RE system.  Secondly, the earth is not at the center of the Ptolemaic System.

I posted the link to demonstrate the shapes that can be made when one circle is rotating around another circle. I wasn't proposing a system of epicycles and deferents.

Of course in the FE version of things the planet would be rotating around the sun, which in turn rotates around the Northern Hub.

Ie., the image at the bottom of this page: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=The+Planets

Then perhaps you should have linked to a FE based simulator.  Oh, wait.  You can't because one doesn't exist.  Sounds like another opportunity for you, or another FE "researcher", to develop one and further the credibility FET immeasurably.

I didn't present it as a FE based simulator. I was using it to show what sorts of shapes could be made with one circle rotating around another circle.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2011, 05:47:20 PM »
Yes, it's possible. Look up a Ptolemaic System Simulator which simulates the movements of circles moving around circles.

http://grmath4.phpnet.us/interact/ptolemy/ptolemaic.swf

If you adjust the variables you can make the planets move in lots of different shapes.

First of all, the Ptolemaic System is an RE system.  Secondly, the earth is not at the center of the Ptolemaic System.

I posted the link to demonstrate the shapes that can be made when one circle is rotating around another circle. I wasn't proposing a system of epicycles and deferents.

Of course in the FE version of things the planet would be rotating around the sun, which in turn rotates around the Northern Hub.

Ie., the image at the bottom of this page: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=The+Planets

Then perhaps you should have linked to a FE based simulator.  Oh, wait.  You can't because one doesn't exist.  Sounds like another opportunity for you, or another FE "researcher", to develop one and further the credibility FET immeasurably.

I didn't present it as a FE based simulator. I was using it to show what sorts of shapes could be made with one circle rotating around another circle.

Then you were simply attempting to mislead others into believing that the same is possible if the sun is directly over the FE?  I think i can clarify this more appropriately now, or at least i have a slightly different way to explain what i was trying to say earlier.

The FE model can generate every shape orbit that the RE model can, but do to the sun's location, the viewing angle is greatly changed.  See the reason that an epicycle can create an S shaped view from our perspective is not because its actually shaped as an S, but because its a loop viewed from an angle where its much more obvious that the path does not cross itself.  If the sun is directly over the earth, then that perspective is no longer possible, which is why the model that you posted is completely irrelevant.  Its not about what shapes can be made, its about what shapes can be viewed.

So again, you either need you move your sun away from the earth, or extend the orbits of the planets and include epicycles.

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markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 41782
Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2011, 07:14:14 PM »
I didn't present it as a FE based simulator. I was using it to show what sorts of shapes could be made with one circle rotating around another circle.
What good is it to show retrograde motion in a geocentric RE model if the earth is flat?  ???

I'll do it. Where can I find a detailed description of the solar system according to FET? The northern hub is the top of the Earth, right?

Good luck with that.  I've been trying to get a coherent FE model out of these guys for 2 years.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17732
Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2011, 09:12:24 PM »
Quote
Then you were simply attempting to mislead others into believing that the same is possible if the sun is directly over the FE?  I think i can clarify this more appropriately now, or at least i have a slightly different way to explain what i was trying to say earlier.

No. I presented it as a circle simulator and that's all.

Quote
The FE model can generate every shape orbit that the RE model can, but do to the sun's location, the viewing angle is greatly changed.

I think you mean "due"

Quote
See the reason that an epicycle can create an S shaped view from our perspective is not because its actually shaped as an S, but because its a loop viewed from an angle where its much more obvious that the path does not cross itself.  If the sun is directly over the earth, then that perspective is no longer possible, which is why the model that you posted is completely irrelevant.  Its not about what shapes can be made, its about what shapes can be viewed.

All sorts of shapes can be made in that circle simulator. If you claim that a certain shape isn't possible you'll need to demonstrate why it isn't.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 09:14:27 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17732
Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2011, 09:14:11 PM »
What good is it to show retrograde motion in a geocentric RE model if the earth is flat?  ???

That's the only circle simulator I could find.

Quote from: markjo
Good luck with that.  I've been trying to get a coherent FE model out of these guys for 2 years.

The FE model is perfectly coherent.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Flat earth solar system incredibly inaccurate
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2011, 10:44:52 PM »
Quote
Then you were simply attempting to mislead others into believing that the same is possible if the sun is directly over the FE?  I think i can clarify this more appropriately now, or at least i have a slightly different way to explain what i was trying to say earlier.

No. I presented it as a circle simulator and that's all.

Quote
The FE model can generate every shape orbit that the RE model can, but do to the sun's location, the viewing angle is greatly changed.

I think you mean "due"

Quote
See the reason that an epicycle can create an S shaped view from our perspective is not because its actually shaped as an S, but because its a loop viewed from an angle where its much more obvious that the path does not cross itself.  If the sun is directly over the earth, then that perspective is no longer possible, which is why the model that you posted is completely irrelevant.  Its not about what shapes can be made, its about what shapes can be viewed.

All sorts of shapes can be made in that circle simulator. If you claim that a certain shape isn't possible you'll need to demonstrate why it isn't.

No I don't need to demonstrate it.  That model is not the FE model, nor is it an accurate model at predicting  where the planets will be.  You just have to visualize it in your mind  The planet is orbiting the sun in circles, the only shape you will be able to see if you look up is going to be some form of circle.  Unless you have some irregular pattern where the planet speeds up and slows down erratically, an S shape will not be possible, and even then you will not be able to form an S if the sun is directly over head with the planet orbiting nearby.  Not to mention that the very model that you posted was abandoned because of it inherent inaccuracies in predicting where the planets would be due to its inclusion of epicycles. while maintain the appropriate planetary orbit pattern.  On top of that, proving that a particular shape is possible does not mean that our viewing angle will allow us to see.