The Sun's power source.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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The Sun's power source.
« on: May 19, 2011, 08:31:33 PM »
Until the discovery of fusion it was difficult to explain the source of the Sun's energy source for astronomers.  Things like fossil fuels simply do not have the amount of energy needed to sustain the huge amounts of time that sun has been in fact lighting up our sky.

I have heard a variety of different theories on what powers the sun on these forums, from the downright crazy - solarshrimp, to the uninformed and not well thought out - pure fire.

Does FES have an accepted power source for the sun?  If so, what is it?

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Horatio

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Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2011, 09:52:57 PM »
Why would the power source of the sun under FET be any different than RET?

Solarshrimp were never stated as the source of power for the sun, but rather just a form of life on the surface of the sun.
How dare you have the audacity to demand my deposition. I've never even heard of you.

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Skeleton

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Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2011, 09:55:35 PM »

Does FES have an accepted power source for the sun?  If so, what is it?

Coal.
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2011, 10:31:16 PM »
Why would the power source of the sun under FET be any different than RET?

Since the standard FE model has a much smaller sun, you won't have enough gravity to provide the pressure necessary to cause fusion.

Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2011, 10:33:18 PM »
Why would the power source of the sun under FET be any different than RET?

Since the standard FE model has a much smaller sun, you won't have enough gravity to provide the pressure necessary to cause fusion.

...or any gravity at all.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2011, 10:36:34 PM »
What is this nonsense about gravity?
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2011, 11:03:41 PM »
What is this nonsense about gravity?

The amount of pressure needed to sustain the high temperatures that fusion needs can only be achieved through gravity, the only way that humans can start fusion reactions is through the use of fission reactions. 

Therefore FE with a thirty two diameter sun cannot use fusion as the energy source of the sun.

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2011, 02:33:17 AM »
Evidence? Support? Unsubstantiated claims?
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

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Puttah

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Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2011, 02:58:34 AM »
Evidence? Support? Unsubstantiated claims?

Of the immense pressures needed to begin a fusion reaction?
We don't seem to need to explain the concept of relativity to you, yet you're asking for evidence of this? Go read one of the many links that appear when you google "atomic fusion" ffs...
Scepti, this idiocy needs to stop and it needs to stop right now. You are making a mockery of this fine forum with your poor trolling. You are a complete disgrace.

Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2011, 07:29:49 AM »
What is this nonsense about gravity?

The amount of pressure needed to sustain the high temperatures that fusion needs can only be achieved through gravity, the only way that humans can start fusion reactions is through the use of fission reactions. 


That's not quite accurate. Tokamak fusion reactors do exist and don't need fission or gravity, just electromagnetic containment and high temperatures. They do however require much more energy to put in than one gets out.


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John Davis

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Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2011, 07:39:22 AM »
Quite the theory constructed out of second hand astronomical knowledge.  How again can you know with any certainty what powers the sun except for models that fit the data, rather than the truth?
Quantum Ab Hoc

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Puttah

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Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2011, 07:55:01 AM »
Quite the theory constructed out of second hand astronomical knowledge.  How again can you know with any certainty what powers the sun except for models that fit the data, rather than the truth?
How did you derive this truth then? And why doesn't it fit the data?
Scepti, this idiocy needs to stop and it needs to stop right now. You are making a mockery of this fine forum with your poor trolling. You are a complete disgrace.

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John Davis

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Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2011, 08:16:07 AM »
Quite the theory constructed out of second hand astronomical knowledge.  How again can you know with any certainty what powers the sun except for models that fit the data, rather than the truth?
How did you derive this truth then? And why doesn't it fit the data?
First hand observation when its available;  it could certainly fit the data - it in fact must.  However, it also fits the truth, rather than a wild mathematical converging of related and unrelated theories on what the data means.
Quantum Ab Hoc

Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2011, 09:34:54 AM »
Quite the theory constructed out of second hand astronomical knowledge.  How again can you know with any certainty what powers the sun except for models that fit the data, rather than the truth?

All we ever have are models. There's never any access to the "truth". This is true for both second hand and first hand knowledge. We are just more aware of some of those models than others. When a little child plays catch with a ball they are using mental models about the movement of balls. When you cross the street at a crosswalk you are using a model that says it is safer to cross there than in the middle of the road. These are all models. The only difference is the degree that the knowledge is indirect. Note that having a lot of indirect evidence doesn't mean that that evidence can't be very strong. All my evidence that George Washington existed is indirect and very second hand. But that doesn't substantially alter my confidence that he existed.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2011, 12:07:38 PM »
Quite the theory constructed out of second hand astronomical knowledge.  How again can you know with any certainty what powers the sun except for models that fit the data, rather than the truth?

All we ever have are models. There's never any access to the "truth". This is true for both second hand and first hand knowledge. We are just more aware of some of those models than others. When a little child plays catch with a ball they are using mental models about the movement of balls. When you cross the street at a crosswalk you are using a model that says it is safer to cross there than in the middle of the road. These are all models. The only difference is the degree that the knowledge is indirect. Note that having a lot of indirect evidence doesn't mean that that evidence can't be very strong. All my evidence that George Washington existed is indirect and very second hand. But that doesn't substantially alter my confidence that he existed.

Ok ill try to use simple observations to prove that the sun could not be using fusion if it were only 32 miles in diameter.  Objects like jupiter and venus are far larger than 32 miles in diameter, and they have no where near the amount of gravity or density needed to begin fusion.  Its at around 13 jupiter masses when we begin to see small amounts of fusion in the core of these large planets, and thats why we begin to call them brown dwarfs.

Also the sun converts millions of tons, perhaps even billions depending on your source, of hydrogen a second in order to produce sufficient amounts of energy to power the amount of pressure that it needs to exert back on gravity to prevent itself from collapsing.  Models for the sun are extremely difficult to create, in fact there are entire upper-division classes here at UCSC devoted to constructing models of the sun.  If you put in too much mass, it has too much gravity, and will collapse. If you change the density, you change the amount of pressure driving fusion, and therefore change the amount of pressure pushing against gravity, and will cause the sun to collapse.  The sun is always in a very close balance between collapsing or expanding rapidly,  And this is arbitrary of whether the earth is round or not.  You can run the computer models yourself.  

Keep in mind also, that its pretty easy to see first hand that nuclear fusion takes immense amounts of pressure and heat to start.  One of the few ways, and the most common way that we are able to start fusion reactions, is through the use of fission nuclear bombs.

Now sure, none of this is proof that a 32 mile diameter sun could not (even though the pressures in the center of the earth would be greater than something merely 32 miles across, and therefore would start a nuclear fusion reaction) start a fusion reaction and sustain it for billions of years.  But it just doesn't seem to be the simplest explanation to assume that sun is 32 miles across and performing nuclear fusion when there are other objects of greater size that cannot preform the same action, for example, the earth.

But even more important, is the fact that you have not proven that nuclear fusion could actually happen only 3000 miles away from our surface in a body only 32 miles across.  If you want, i can give you many links on how fusion in the sun works given the suns size and mass in RE terms.  I dont think that you can provide me anywhere near the same level of evidence that this is in fact possible.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 12:12:34 PM by OrbisNonSufficit »

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2011, 12:57:48 PM »
You can run the computer models yourself. 

I'd really like to do that, actually.  Does it actually allow you to construct a sun 32 miles wide and play with its mass and density?  I'd like to see first-hand what happens.

Link?
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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hoppy

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Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2011, 02:31:03 PM »
Until the discovery of fusion it was difficult to explain the source of the Sun's energy source for astronomers.  Things like fossil fuels simply do not have the amount of energy needed to sustain the huge amounts of time that sun has been in fact lighting up our sky.

I have heard a variety of different theories on what powers the sun on these forums, from the downright crazy - solarshrimp, to the uninformed and not well thought out - pure fire.

Does FES have an accepted power source for the sun?  If so, what is it?

    Yes electricity, The sun is a large electric flood light.
God is real.                                         
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9665708/Flat-Earth-Bible-02-of-10-The-Flat-Earth

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Tausami

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Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2011, 02:43:25 PM »
I already told you, the sun is made of pure, unadulterated fire. Again, Earth's fire isn't as hot or bright because it is kept as energy in various fuels, let out by chemical reactions. The Sun's fire is not kept in fuel, it simply is.

God, I feel like James.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 03:25:36 PM by Tausami »

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2011, 03:22:58 PM »
You can run the computer models yourself. 

I'd really like to do that, actually.  Does it actually allow you to construct a sun 32 miles wide and play with its mass and density?  I'd like to see first-hand what happens.

Link?

These programs are usually designed by those who want to actually test these types of things. If there is an online system for doing this I am unaware of it.


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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2011, 03:53:55 PM »
I already told you, the sun is made of pure, unadulterated fire. Again, Earth's fire isn't as hot or bright because it is kept as energy in various fuels, let out by chemical reactions. The Sun's fire is not kept in fuel, it simply is.

God, I feel like James.

Simply Amazing.

Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2011, 04:34:38 PM »
I already told you, the sun is made of pure, unadulterated fire. Again, Earth's fire isn't as hot or bright because it is kept as energy in various fuels, let out by chemical reactions. The Sun's fire is not kept in fuel, it simply is.

God, I feel like James.

Nice cop-out.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
If you don't know, whenever you talk about it you're invoking the supernatural
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Unknown != Magic.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2011, 05:41:59 PM »
You can run the computer models yourself.  

I'd really like to do that, actually.  Does it actually allow you to construct a sun 32 miles wide and play with its mass and density?  I'd like to see first-hand what happens.

Link?

These programs are usually designed by those who want to actually test these types of things. If there is an online system for doing this I am unaware of it.



Oh, so when you said "You can run the computer models yourself", you really meant, "You can't run the computer models yourself unless you're a student at my school in my specialized field of knowledge"?

I am disappoint.  :(

I guess we have no way of confirming your vague accusations against FET for ourselves after all?
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Tausami

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Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2011, 05:44:31 PM »
I already told you, the sun is made of pure, unadulterated fire. Again, Earth's fire isn't as hot or bright because it is kept as energy in various fuels, let out by chemical reactions. The Sun's fire is not kept in fuel, it simply is.

God, I feel like James.

Nice cop-out.

??? Do you mean me saying what I've been saying all along, or me commenting that the obviousness of my trolling made me feel like James?

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fluffycornsnake

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Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2011, 05:46:11 PM »
I already told you, the sun is made of pure, unadulterated fire. Again, Earth's fire isn't as hot or bright because it is kept as energy in various fuels, let out by chemical reactions. The Sun's fire is not kept in fuel, it simply is.

God, I feel like James.

A concise and reasonable answer. I declare this case closed.

Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2011, 05:55:39 PM »
I already told you, the sun is made of pure, unadulterated fire. Again, Earth's fire isn't as hot or bright because it is kept as energy in various fuels, let out by chemical reactions. The Sun's fire is not kept in fuel, it simply is.

God, I feel like James.

Nice cop-out.

??? Do you mean me saying what I've been saying all along, or me commenting that the obviousness of my trolling made me feel like James?


??? Were you being sarcastic in your post about the sun being fire?
Quote from: Tom Bishop
If you don't know, whenever you talk about it you're invoking the supernatural
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Unknown != Magic.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2011, 05:59:59 PM »
I already told you, the sun is made of pure, unadulterated fire. Again, Earth's fire isn't as hot or bright because it is kept as energy in various fuels, let out by chemical reactions. The Sun's fire is not kept in fuel, it simply is.

God, I feel like James.

Nice cop-out.

??? Do you mean me saying what I've been saying all along, or me commenting that the obviousness of my trolling made me feel like James?


??? Were you being sarcastic in your post about the sun being fire?

Of course he was, fire requires oxygen, and a material to be burned, it is in fact the oxidization of an entity,  with the flames being the exited atmosphere nearby the energy source. 

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Tausami

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Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2011, 06:00:59 PM »
I already told you, the sun is made of pure, unadulterated fire. Again, Earth's fire isn't as hot or bright because it is kept as energy in various fuels, let out by chemical reactions. The Sun's fire is not kept in fuel, it simply is.

God, I feel like James.

Nice cop-out.

??? Do you mean me saying what I've been saying all along, or me commenting that the obviousness of my trolling made me feel like James?


??? Were you being sarcastic in your post about the sun being fire?

Yeah. I'm a DA. If you look in the quote, you'll see that in small, transparent letters, I wrote 'God, I feel like James.' James (I'm just assuming you don't know who he is, because I don't know you. Sorry if I'm being condescending) is a notorious troll here, although he's actually one of the few true believers. Actually, he came up with that idea, based on Aristotle's theory that everything is made of Earth, Fire, Water, and Air.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2011, 06:01:20 PM »
You can run the computer models yourself.  

I'd really like to do that, actually.  Does it actually allow you to construct a sun 32 miles wide and play with its mass and density?  I'd like to see first-hand what happens.

Link?


These programs are usually designed by those who want to actually test these types of things. If there is an online system for doing this I am unaware of it.



Oh, so when you said "You can run the computer models yourself", you really meant, "You can't run the computer models yourself unless you're a student at my school in my specialized field of knowledge"?

I am disappoint.  :(

I guess we have no way of confirming your vague accusations against our theory for ourselves after all?

No, you can run the model yourself, all i said was that you will have to design the program perimeters like everyone at my school does.  If you don't know how to do that, then you probably cannot definitively prove if a 32 mile diameter sun could in fact sustain a fusion reaction for billions of years.  And I am not making vague accusations against your theory, its quite clear.  Fusion requires immense pressure, greater than what a 32 mile diameter object can provide.  Look at jupiter, mars, venus, earth, all are much larger than 32 miles in diameter, yet none fuse atoms in their core.  In fact, it takes a minimum of 13 Jupiter masses to begin a process of fusion, at which points planets become classified as "brown dwarfs".

I'm providing you with how our sun works in RE, all i am asking you to do, is to show me how it works in FE, because after you read how our sun works, you will realize that shrinking the sun down to 32 miles in diameter will have huge consequences on how the process works in RE.  Cramming the amount of mass that the sun currently has into the size of the sun in FE would make it resemble a white dwarf star more than a normal star.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun

Please explain to me how the sun works in FE, taking into consideration its dramatic reduction in size.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 06:04:17 PM by OrbisNonSufficit »

Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2011, 08:04:42 PM »
 Cramming the amount of mass that the sun currently has into the size of the sun in FE would make it resemble a white dwarf star more than a normal star.


Interesting. When I first read that remark I thought "well shouldn't you actually get a black hole" but then I did the calculation for the Schwarzschild radius of the sun and it is surprisingly small (about an order of magnitude smaller).

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: The Sun's power source.
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2011, 08:19:36 PM »
So does the FE have no idea of how to power the sun?  Or is it nuclear fusion, just no one has any clue on how that works with a 32 mile diameter sun?  This is a pretty gaping hole in FE theory then...