America is Communist

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2011, 07:29:57 PM »
You guys are focusing on minor issues. American problem is far greater then smoking ban or any other petty bull shit. Patriot act and blatant violation of our constitutional rights is perhaps the biggest problem in America today and no one seems to give a shit. Large corporations are being bailed out by the government while average American worker has no job security and works for twice or three times less money then an average European worker, that is a concern. Health care services that are unaffordable, poor Education, illegal immigration, outsourcing of jobs, those are real problems and you are focusing on smoking? Ridiculous.
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Tausami

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2011, 07:33:05 PM »
You guys are focusing on minor issues. American problem is far greater then smoking ban or any other petty bull shit. Patriot act and blatant violation of our constitutional rights is perhaps the biggest problem in America today and no one seems to give a shit. Large corporations are being bailed out by the government while average American worker has no job security and works for twice or three times less money then an average European worker, that is a concern. Health care services that are unaffordable, poor Education, illegal immigration, outsourcing of jobs, those are real problems and you are focusing on smoking? Ridiculous.

Nope. Two camels and a tiny car.

Re: America is Communist
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2011, 07:38:08 PM »
You guys are focusing on minor issues. American problem is far greater then smoking ban or any other petty bull shit. Patriot act and blatant violation of our constitutional rights is perhaps the biggest problem in America today and no one seems to give a shit. Large corporations are being bailed out by the government while average American worker has no job security and works for twice or three times less money then an average European worker, that is a concern. Health care services that are unaffordable, poor Education, illegal immigration, outsourcing of jobs, those are real problems and you are focusing on smoking? Ridiculous.

Nope. Two camels and a tiny car.


I don't get your reference. The troll is obvious.
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2011, 07:38:37 PM »
It ceases to be freedom when one person is passively hurting another just by being there.

Yes.  So driving should be banned too.

And is passivity such an important part of it?  Seems arbitrary to me.  Alcohol regularly causes one person to aggressively hurt another; I think that is much worse.  Drinking should be banned.

Don't be silly. Neither of those issues compare to passive smoking. Driving is an essential form of transport, and it isn't harmful unless you're sticking your face in the exhaust.

I wish to qualify my previous statement, because society would probably break down if there wasn't some driving.  Driving should be banned except by professional drivers of mass transit.  Being able to drive yourself is not essential; it's a luxury.  And due to the damage it's doing to the environment, I think that driving is doing a lot more harm than you seem to give it credit for.

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Not a lot of people become aggressive when drunk,

Wow, wrong again.

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and those that do should know better than to become that drunk.

If only everybody had equal abilities to control their willpower.  It truly is a utopian fantasy world you live in.

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At the end of the day, smokers are essentially burning money while simultaneously killing themselves

Irrelevant.

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and annoying others in the room. Even if passive smoke were harmless (and you're right, it isn't that deadly), is it really such a bad thing to not smoke? Can't you use patches or something?

It's not the same thing.  Jesus, is that really so difficult to understand?

I mean, for christ's sake, I'm all for most forms of smoking bans in public places.  I don't mind having to smoke outdoors at work; I've gotten used to it.  I don't mind not being able to smoke in stores; I understand how annoying it is.

But what's wrong with having a smoking section at a restaurant?

And really,
but bars? Seriously? I don't think we can call this America if I can't have a cigarette and a beer together.

+1
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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sillyrob

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2011, 07:44:44 PM »
It ceases to be freedom when one person is passively hurting another just by being there.

Yes.  So driving should be banned too.

And is passivity such an important part of it?  Seems arbitrary to me.  Alcohol regularly causes one person to aggressively hurt another; I think that is much worse.  Drinking should be banned.

Don't be silly. Neither of those issues compare to passive smoking. Driving is an essential form of transport, and it isn't harmful unless you're sticking your face in the exhaust. Not a lot of people become aggressive when drunk, and those that do should know better than to become that drunk.

From what I understand, second-hand smoke isn't anywhere as bad as everyone thinks it is. It's probably not as bad as the noise pollution that comes from people who bitch about smoke in the air. That's like digging knives into my ears.

At the end of the day, smokers are essentially burning money while simultaneously killing themselves and annoying others in the room. Even if passive smoke were harmless (and you're right, it isn't that deadly), is it really such a bad thing to not smoke? Can't you use patches or something?
No, patches aren't the same. People can choose to kill themselves anyway they want, and if they want to spend money doing it, so be it. I think crying babies are annoying, but we cant ban them. I think Mormons are annoying, but we cant ban them. Fact of the matter is, we cant ban everything that annoys people.

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sillyrob

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2011, 07:45:45 PM »
You guys are focusing on minor issues. American problem is far greater then smoking ban or any other petty bull shit. Patriot act and blatant violation of our constitutional rights is perhaps the biggest problem in America today and no one seems to give a shit. Large corporations are being bailed out by the government while average American worker has no job security and works for twice or three times less money then an average European worker, that is a concern. Health care services that are unaffordable, poor Education, illegal immigration, outsourcing of jobs, those are real problems and you are focusing on smoking? Ridiculous.
I actually agree with you.

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Vindictus

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2011, 08:02:58 PM »
I wish to qualify my previous statement, because society would probably break down if there wasn't some driving.  Driving should be banned except by professional drivers of mass transit.  Being able to drive yourself is not essential; it's a luxury.  And due to the damage it's doing to the environment, I think that driving is doing a lot more harm than you seem to give it credit for.

Some people have no other choice.

Also, most of the damage being done to the environment is through coal burning, not car emissions, if I recall. I can't find the data regarding this, but it's got to be floating around somewhere.

Irrelevant.

No, it's not. It's causing the smoker financial harm, personal harm and it's detrimental to others. Just to relieve stress, and curb the addiction.

But what's wrong with having a smoking section at a restaurant?

Nothing. That's fine.

No, patches aren't the same. People can choose to kill themselves anyway they want, and if they want to spend money doing it, so be it. I think crying babies are annoying, but we cant ban them. I think Mormons are annoying, but we cant ban them. Fact of the matter is, we cant ban everything that annoys people.

Not on the grounds of 'it annoys people', no. Passive smoking is real, though.

It's a moot point, because smoking has been insanely butchered, at least in this country.

Re: America is Communist
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2011, 08:05:23 PM »
If tobacco companies were actual small businesses and not multi-trillion dollar industries they would've been banned long ago.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2011, 09:06:18 PM »
I get not smoking in banks or grocery stores, but bars? Seriously? I don't think we can call this America if I can't have a cigarette and a beer together.

I dunno though. Sure, some bars would be fine with it, but a lot also wouldn't. For everyone that isn't smoking, the place would smell like absolute shit. I wouldn't go to a bar that smells like shit.

Also, why don't you just smoke and drink at your home if you wish to do that?

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Parsifal

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2011, 09:09:03 PM »
Yes, people should have the freedom to be able to go to a bar and have a smoke. Non-smokers should also have the freedom to go to a bar where there won't be any smoke. Hence:

Also, with regard to banning smoking in bars and restaurants, I don't think a blanket ban is desirable. Rather, the government should afford legal protection to those restaurant owners who wish to ban it in their own establishments, but ultimately the decision should be up to the owner and not the lawmaker.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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sillyrob

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2011, 09:18:18 PM »
I get not smoking in banks or grocery stores, but bars? Seriously? I don't think we can call this America if I can't have a cigarette and a beer together.

I dunno though. Sure, some bars would be fine with it, but a lot also wouldn't. For everyone that isn't smoking, the place would smell like absolute shit. I wouldn't go to a bar that smells like shit.

Also, why don't you just smoke and drink at your home if you wish to do that?
I can ask the same about people who don't want to be around smoke. There isn't enough conclusive evidence of the health problems of second-hand smoke, and I also have a problem with people running to government every time they get annoyed. I also didn't see the business in bars go up in Arizona when the smoking ban passed, only down. Bars that couldn't build patios were dropping like flies. I dunno if you were 21 and went out when the ban went into effect, but it was sad watching my bar go downhill when you had to walk outside for a cigarette.

Also, I did smoke and drink at home. It is hard to meet people though, and what's the fun of staying in on Sundays and watching the Cardinals lose at home when I can be around other disappointed Cardinals fans at a bar.

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berny_74

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2011, 11:10:03 PM »
Somewhat relevant to the topic of smoking.

Berny
Non-smoker and does not want to get dragged into this issue.
To be fair, sometimes what FE'ers say makes so little sense that it's hard to come up with a rebuttal.
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EnglshGentleman

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2011, 10:12:50 AM »
There isn't enough conclusive evidence of the health problems of second-hand smoke

Sure there are. There have been plenty of studies.

Quote from: C. Tribarren, et al. "Directly measured second hand smoke exposure and asthma health outcomes." Thorax 60.10 (2005): 814-821
In a prospective cohort study of adult non- smokers recently admitted to hospital for asthma, the impact of SHS exposure on asthma health outcomes was examined. Methods: Recent SHS exposure during the previous 7 days was directly measured using a personal nicotine badge (n = 189) and exposure during the previous 3 months was estimated using hair nicotine and cotinine levels (n = 138). Asthma severity and health status were ascertained during telephone interviews, and subsequent admission to hospital for asthma was determined from computerised utilisation databases. Results: Most of the adults with asthma were exposed to SHS, with estimates ranging from 60% to 83% depending on the time frame and methodology. the highest level of recent SHS exposure, as measured by the personal nicotine badge, was related to greater asthma severity (mean score increment for highest tertile of nicotine level 1.56 points; 95% CI 0.18 to 2.95), controlling for sociodemographic covariates and previous smoking history. Moreover, the second and third tertiles of hair nicotine exposure during the previous month were associated with a greater baseline prospective risk of hospital admission for asthma (HR 3.73; 95% CI 1.04 to 13.30 and HR 3.61; 95% CI 1.0 to 12.9, respectively). Conclusions: Directly measured SHS exposure appears to be associated with poorer asthma outcomes. In public health terms, these results support efforts to prohibit smoking in public places.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 12:17:17 PM by EnglshGentleman »

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sillyrob

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2011, 11:39:11 AM »
It's funny you posted that after someone else agreed with me, anyways, when I get home I'll find a study that says it isn't.

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Christianrocker90

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2011, 11:51:19 AM »
Let us smoke, why should people be angry that my ignorance is killing me?
Because it's killing me too.
Second hand smoke a) isn't that dangerous b) you aren't getting that much of it.

So no, no one is killing you.

LIEZ!

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2011, 12:15:14 PM »
It's funny you posted that after someone else agreed with me, anyways, when I get home I'll find a study that says it isn't.

Who agreed with you that second-hand smoking does not hurt anyone?  ???

Good luck finding a scholarly article that says it is harmless.

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sillyrob

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2011, 07:06:44 PM »
It's funny you posted that after someone else agreed with me, anyways, when I get home I'll find a study that says it isn't.

Who agreed with you that second-hand smoking does not hurt anyone?  ???

Good luck finding a scholarly article that says it is harmless.
I never said harmless. Anyways, http://www.nycclash.com/triplerisk.html. Plenty of discussion on how anti-smoking studies seem to be a bit fudged. It should also be noted that there are a lot of studies that talk about how horrible marijuana usage is, but we all know those are a bunch of crap.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2011, 07:59:39 PM »
I never said harmless. Anyways, http://www.nycclash.com/triplerisk.html. Plenty of discussion on how anti-smoking studies seem to be a bit fudged. It should also be noted that there are a lot of studies that talk about how horrible marijuana usage is, but we all know those are a bunch of crap.

Oh, a website entitled, "Citizens Lobbying Against Smoker Harassment" this will undoubtedly be an unbiased website!

Taking a glance at some of the "discussions" none of them actually provide scientific studies demonstrating that second-hand smoke does not affect other individuals' health in a negative way. The majority of it is people trying to argue with the scientists saying, "Your study was completely biased! Prove me wrong!" or "Excuse me professional scientist, I do not have any knowledge of how experiments are done, or how protocol is done, but I believe you do not know what you are talking about. Your results seem totally inconclusive!"

For example, they try to slam one article for stating that non-smokers have extremely low amounts of a chemical in their body. For what reason? I have no clue. You would expect that people that are not exposed to any amount of smoke (including SHS) would have a relatively low amount of a chemical induced by it in their body. The article even goes further by trying to make the amount look ridiculous by making conversions. This totally makes sense though right? A low concentration of something couldn't possibly be harmful could it? It isn't like arsenic is potentially lethal at 2 parts per million. It isn't like mercury isn't poisonous at .5 parts per billion.

That website is largely people that do not understand science, and because of this, think that scientific studies seem ludicrous. IMO that website has no more value that Creation Wiki.

It should also be noted that there are a lot of studies that talk about how horrible marijuana usage is, but we all know those are a bunch of crap.

Justify this statement + Irrelevant.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 08:07:03 PM by EnglshGentleman »

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sillyrob

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #48 on: April 16, 2011, 08:35:22 PM »
They pointed out how little was in there because of the, "Finding chemicals in the blood does not mean the chemical causes illness. We have yet to determine how much of the chemical will cause illness." I think that's a valid point.

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sillyrob

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2011, 09:00:11 PM »
http://henrysturman.com/english/articles/passivesmoking.html

More interesting stuff. It should be brought up that smoke ISN'T the only cause of lung cancer, and how many doctors turn to a patient and ask them about their exposure to the many other causes of lung cancer? If a woman comes in with lung cancer, and her husband smokes, it's assumed it was caused by second hand smoke. However, do we know her exposure to Radon, what her diet was, how much exercise she got, do they present her families history of cancer? All of these are factors, and I would put money on the fact that if they dug more deeply into lung cancer patients who were non-smokers exposed to second hand smoke, they'd find a much lower percentage of them are caused by smoking.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2011, 09:27:54 PM »
They pointed out how little was in there because of the, "Finding chemicals in the blood does not mean the chemical causes illness. We have yet to determine how much of the chemical will cause illness." I think that's a valid point.

Yes, the report was admitting that just because one atom of arsenic might be found in a person's body, this does not mean that it will cause arsenic poising. It is conceding that the concentration needs to be investigated.

However, the website was trying to ridicule the report by saying, "Look how little of it there is in people that do not smoke!" when in reality when you consider other toxic materials, it is not a small amount at all.

http://henrysturman.com/english/articles/passivesmoking.html

More interesting stuff. It should be brought up that smoke ISN'T the only cause of lung cancer, and how many doctors turn to a patient and ask them about their exposure to the many other causes of lung cancer? If a woman comes in with lung cancer, and her husband smokes, it's assumed it was caused by second hand smoke. However, do we know her exposure to Radon, what her diet was, how much exercise she got, do they present her families history of cancer? All of these are factors, and I would put money on the fact that if they dug more deeply into lung cancer patients who were non-smokers exposed to second hand smoke, they'd find a much lower percentage of them are caused by smoking.

When did anyone ever suggest that smoke was the only cause of lung cancer?  ???

I do not think anyone would disagree with that other things can cause it. Once again, the site you are citing is not disproving that smoking is harmful. It is only leading a smear campaign. It doesn't change the fact that smoke can cause lung cancer, even if it doesn't cause it every time.

You have yet to produce and medical journals that demonstrate that smoking has no directly negative effects on ones healths, and that second hand smoke also does not do this.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 09:33:38 PM by EnglshGentleman »

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sillyrob

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2011, 09:34:14 PM »
When did I claim that smoking has no negative effects on one's health?

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2011, 11:03:48 PM »
When did I claim that smoking has no negative effects on one's health?

There isn't enough conclusive evidence of the health problems of second-hand smoke

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Lord Wilmore

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Tausami

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2011, 11:49:28 AM »
It's funny you posted that after someone else agreed with me, anyways, when I get home I'll find a study that says it isn't.

Who agreed with you that second-hand smoking does not hurt anyone?  ???

Good luck finding a scholarly article that says it is harmless.
I never said harmless. Anyways, http://www.nycclash.com/triplerisk.html. Plenty of discussion on how anti-smoking studies seem to be a bit fudged. It should also be noted that there are a lot of studies that talk about how horrible marijuana usage is, but we all know those are a bunch of crap.

In one article, a study stated that there wasn't a clear dose-response relationship, as in increased dose didn't necessarily increase response, and took that to mean that the was no effect.

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Tausami

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2011, 11:51:43 AM »
http://henrysturman.com/english/articles/passivesmoking.html

More interesting stuff. It should be brought up that smoke ISN'T the only cause of lung cancer, and how many doctors turn to a patient and ask them about their exposure to the many other causes of lung cancer? If a woman comes in with lung cancer, and her husband smokes, it's assumed it was caused by second hand smoke. However, do we know her exposure to Radon, what her diet was, how much exercise she got, do they present her families history of cancer? All of these are factors, and I would put money on the fact that if they dug more deeply into lung cancer patients who were non-smokers exposed to second hand smoke, they'd find a much lower percentage of them are caused by smoking.

Generally speaking, if her house has a radon problem, that's considered to be the primary cause. But what you have to remember is that cancer isn't caused by one big thing. It's caused by lots of little things, and smoking is one of the biggest of those little things.

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sillyrob

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2011, 06:44:13 PM »
When did I claim that smoking has no negative effects on one's health?

There isn't enough conclusive evidence of the health problems of second-hand smoke
The way you worded it, you made it sound like I said smoking isn't unhealthy at all.

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sillyrob

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2011, 06:48:36 PM »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-11844169


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-12711615
"The combined data from the studies suggests that being exposed to more than 10 cigarettes a day is enough for the risks to be increased."

Do they mean being around more than 10 cigarettes a day, or inhaling the equivalent of 10 cigarettes a day? That right there makes a large difference. Also, the first article admitted problems with the study.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2011, 11:16:06 PM »
When did I claim that smoking has no negative effects on one's health?

There isn't enough conclusive evidence of the health problems of second-hand smoke
The way you worded it, you made it sound like I said smoking isn't unhealthy at all.

Are you suggesting that second hand smoke is not bad for a person's health at all?

If not, then it shouldn't be a question as to why there is we should not have a public smoking ban. If your actions are directly negatively influencing another person's health in more than just a negligible way, it should not be permitted.

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sillyrob

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Re: America is Communist
« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2011, 08:24:19 AM »
When did I claim that smoking has no negative effects on one's health?

There isn't enough conclusive evidence of the health problems of second-hand smoke
The way you worded it, you made it sound like I said smoking isn't unhealthy at all.

Are you suggesting that second hand smoke is not bad for a person's health at all?

If not, then it shouldn't be a question as to why there is we should not have a public smoking ban. If your actions are directly negatively influencing another person's health in more than just a negligible way, it should not be permitted.
I think the idea of forcing a bunch of businesses to have to pay to get permits to get patios for people to smoke on, giving tickets to those who break the law, and further vilifying an act so voters will keep passing more and more tax on it sounds like its worth fudging facts here and there. In Phoenix, why is a pack of cigarettes $5.25 on the res, but $7.09 and higher everywhere else? The difference is tax, tax they keep passing because voters are like, "Cigarettes are so bad, make them pay more taxes." So are they completely harmless? Probably not, but I think these reports talking about how second hand smoke kills are probably fudged a lot because its lucrative.