Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2011, 03:48:41 AM »
Labour did not promise to and would not have had a referendum on the Westminster voting system if they had of won the election. What would have been the point? They had won, the system works just fine for them.


Labour have been promising electoral reform for years, and were already talking about a referendum on AV months before the election. An attempt to groom the Liberal Democrats? Probably, but the point is that only a Tory-Labour coalition would not have resulted in electoral reform. And the fact that so many people support AV (even though most of them would probably rather have PR) suggests that this isn't some 'in through the back door' fudge we can blame on the Lib Dems.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2011, 05:49:17 AM »
Labour did not promise to and would not have had a referendum on the Westminster voting system if they had of won the election. What would have been the point? They had won, the system works just fine for them.


Labour have been promising electoral reform for years,

But kept winning elections without it

and were already talking about a referendum on AV months before the election

They knew they were struggling for seats and needed to kiss some Lib Dem arse.

An attempt to groom the Liberal Democrats? Probably, but the point is that only a Tory-Labour coalition would not have resulted in electoral reform.

There's no probably about it. By rights we should have a Tory-Labour coalition as they are the two parties with the biggest majority. This Con-Dem nonsense isn't worth the fag packet it's written on. Cameron needed seats and would have sold his mother for them. I bet he couldn't believe his luck when Clegg bent over at a referendum on a simple watered down AV vote that everyone knows will fail, if not to pass then certainly in it's aim.  Clegg wanted glory and would have sold his soul to get it. Oh hang a minute, he did.

And the fact that so many people support AV (even though most of them would probably rather have PR) suggests that this isn't some 'in through the back door' fudge we can blame on the Lib Dems.


We can and we do blame the Lib Dems for this. They're all chancers who shot their bolt at the meerest glimpse of power. Shame on them. 

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2011, 01:06:40 AM »
Ed Milliband was on Radio 4 this morning. He basically admitted that, yes a referendum on electoral reform was in the Labour manifesto but "When you have a majority of 170 seats there really isn't much incentive to change the voting system."

Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2011, 03:57:31 AM »
If you're really interested in the system this is good paper from the Political Studies Association

http://www.psa.ac.uk/PSAPubs/TheAlternativeVoteBriefingPaper.pdf

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2011, 05:13:04 AM »
But kept winning elections without it


Not the last election. They had a whole section on electoral reform in their manifesto, and the main policy in that section were referendums on AV in the House of Commons and on creating an elected second chamber.


They knew they were struggling for seats and needed to kiss some Lib Dem arse.


So? People voted for them, and one of their manifesto pledges was such a referendum.


There's no probably about it. By rights we should have a Tory-Labour coalition as they are the two parties with the biggest majority. This Con-Dem nonsense isn't worth the fag packet it's written on. Cameron needed seats and would have sold his mother for them. I bet he couldn't believe his luck when Clegg bent over at a referendum on a simple watered down AV vote that everyone knows will fail, if not to pass then certainly in it's aim.  Clegg wanted glory and would have sold his soul to get it. Oh hang a minute, he did.


Blah blah blah, rant rant rant. I see you're disillusioned with British politics. Tell me, is this your first election or something?


We can and we do blame the Lib Dems for this. They're all chancers who shot their bolt at the meerest glimpse of power. Shame on them.


I don't see why. The Liberal Democrats have a manifesto they want to enact. They cannot enact it if in opposition. It makes perfect sense for them to go in to power and enact some of their manifesto rather than none of it. Over here the Green party was wiped out because people were saying much the same things about them, and it's totally wrong-headed.


Now, the Lib Dems also made some promises during their election campaign which they have broken (notably on tuition fees), and I think people have a right to feel betrayed about that.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2011, 06:06:29 AM »



................Tell me, is this your first election or something?


Sadly, no. 1997 was my first election.

I'm not disillusioned with British politics at all. I simply don't agree with being used as a means to allow to Tory party to form a majority Government.

Anyway, enough of this. It's too close to the day for their to be any point to our argument. I guess we'll find out what the British public want tomorrow.

Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2011, 06:31:00 AM »
Currently there is a General Election in my country on the 7th of May. Voting is compulsory here. We always have been served by one single political party since our independence and we have flourished under their wings. However, as decades went by, things kind of change but people are still voting for this party because they are grateful and loyal to a few of these people in the party.

I find it disturbing though, gratitude is not servitude. But of course many people from the younger generation are starting to realise that the country needs a change and too much power has been given to the ruling party, for example they have 100% control over the media.
Cheesus is so wise I sometimes think he's my alt.
CheesusCrust is wise.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2011, 01:04:42 AM »

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Eddy Baby

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2011, 02:15:43 AM »
I will be voting yes on AV today. My second vote will be no, of course.

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fluffycornsnake

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2011, 08:06:27 PM »
Being Scottish, I am obviously loving this election. Not even an AV defeat can dampen this beautiful day.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2011, 01:47:54 AM »
You vote SNP, then?

Looks like Labour are doing well but not exceptionally so, Lib Dems are dying in the streets and the Tories aer weathering the storm fairly well.

Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #41 on: May 06, 2011, 02:37:21 AM »
I don't like to say i told you so, but...........



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Eddy Baby

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #42 on: May 06, 2011, 02:38:17 AM »
I got a Lib Dem here. Hurrah, implausibly student Sheffield. In terms of AV, I voted yes. I started off as yes, became no, then went back to yes again.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #43 on: May 06, 2011, 04:50:12 AM »
I got a Lib Dem here. Hurrah, implausibly student Sheffield. In terms of AV, I voted yes. I started off as yes, became no, then went back to yes again.

Oooh take care of them, they're becoming rare species, those Lib Dems!

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #44 on: May 06, 2011, 09:37:46 AM »
Ouch, in my local council area the Lib dems went from holding about 30% of the vote last time to just over 7% this election, back to mid-nineties levels of support.

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General Douchebag

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #45 on: May 06, 2011, 04:14:33 PM »
My constituency went from an SNP stronghold to an SNP motherfucking citadel. This is the Minas Tirith of constituencies, if SNP were the humans and everyone else was just a single stoned hobbit laying siege.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #46 on: May 07, 2011, 05:27:10 AM »
Things what we have done learning about

1) It turns out that the British public don't want an alternative voting system, least of all one brought forward by the LibDems.
2) Nobody likes the LibDems anymore. They're under the impression that they are being blamed for Tory cuts when, in fact, they are being beaten up for double crossing their voters.
3) The LibDems seem to forget that they are in coalition when they say they are being blamed for Tory cuts. Errrrmm they're you're cuts as well
4) The SNP seem to think that they would win a referendum on full devolution.
   4.1) The SNP should first hold a referendum on whether Scotland wants a referendum on full devolution. Let's not put the cart before the horse hear.
5) If the coalition makes it until the 2015 election we'll all be very surprised.

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fluffycornsnake

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #47 on: May 07, 2011, 05:33:03 AM »
4) The SNP seem to think that they would win a referendum on full devolution.

Not really, or they'd do the referendum asap. I think the plan is to have it towards the end of their term, once they've persuaded Scots to actually vote for it.

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Hazbollah

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #48 on: May 07, 2011, 05:38:59 AM »
What benefits would independence actually give Scotland? I'm struggling to think of one.
Always check your tackle- Caerphilly school of Health. If I see an innuendo in my post, I'll be sure to whip it out.

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fluffycornsnake

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #49 on: May 07, 2011, 06:04:27 AM »
What benefits would independence actually give Scotland? I'm struggling to think of one.

Politically, it makes sense. Scots are far more liberal in their voting habits than the English. Hence, continual frustration at being run by the Tories, a party which none of us ever vote for.

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Hazbollah

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #50 on: May 07, 2011, 06:20:24 AM »
What benefits would independence actually give Scotland? I'm struggling to think of one.

Politically, it makes sense. Scots are far more liberal in their voting habits than the English. Hence, continual frustration at being run by the Tories, a party which none of us ever vote for.
Politically, yes, but in real terms I think being part of the Union (which they themselves proposed) would be far better for Scotland.
Always check your tackle- Caerphilly school of Health. If I see an innuendo in my post, I'll be sure to whip it out.

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fluffycornsnake

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #51 on: May 07, 2011, 06:32:30 AM »
I haven't made up my mind yet. There are potentially huge pros and/or huge cons. I'm leaning towards a yes vote, but realistically it will take a monumental effort on Salmond's part to convince the voters. As Thursday's referendum shows, people don't like change.

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fluffycornsnake

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #52 on: May 07, 2011, 10:01:45 PM »
What benefits would independence actually give Scotland? I'm struggling to think of one.

Politically, it makes sense. Scots are far more liberal in their voting habits than the English. Hence, continual frustration at being run by the Tories, a party which none of us ever vote for.

Actually, this isn't quite true. North England is politically closer to Scotland than it is to South England. The latter largely responsible for shackling these nations to Tory dominion.

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Hazbollah

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2011, 02:31:36 AM »
What benefits would independence actually give Scotland? I'm struggling to think of one.

Politically, it makes sense. Scots are far more liberal in their voting habits than the English. Hence, continual frustration at being run by the Tories, a party which none of us ever vote for.

Actually, this isn't quite true. North England is politically closer to Scotland than it is to South England. The latter largely responsible for shackling these nations to Tory dominion.
Very true. As to the earlier post, could you state some of the pros? As I said, I'm struggling to think of any.
Always check your tackle- Caerphilly school of Health. If I see an innuendo in my post, I'll be sure to whip it out.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #54 on: May 08, 2011, 03:28:51 AM »
If you guys go independent, will you let some disenfranchised Englishmen come up and join you?

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General Douchebag

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #55 on: May 08, 2011, 05:54:10 AM »
If you guys go independent, will you let some disenfranchised Englishmen come up and join you?

We're not afraid of immigrants here, but you needn't bother. Salmond and Sarkozy are already in talks to revive the Auld Alliance and conquer England. You'll either end up with us or the French, depending on how we divvy up the land.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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fluffycornsnake

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #56 on: May 08, 2011, 08:49:02 AM »
Very true. As to the earlier post, could you state some of the pros? As I said, I'm struggling to think of any.

Rather than simplify a complex issue into useless soundbites (as both sides have been gulity of in the past), the best way to explain the case for independence is as something as follows. Firstly, and most obviously, the perception that the UK subsidises Scotland is a myth. More money is spent per head in London than anywhere else in the UK. Meanwhile, there is a consistent disparity between Scotland's spending and revenue. Not that this matters hugely, but the misconception needs to be addressed every time this debate arises.

Now whilst it's too late to become the next Norway, we still have enough oil to comfortably pay the bills for a few decades. When that runs out the plan is to be sufficiently re-industrialised to generate wealth beyond oil. Additionally, tying in with our political landscape, we'd profit from the resultant vacuum of nukes, oil wars and similar wasteful expenditures (ridding ourselves of the Trident abomination is a case in itself for independence). We'd gain our own voice in the EU as opposed to having London speak for us (which would arguably work to our mutual advantage).

Ultimately the driving reason for independence is the virtue of the fact itself: that self-determination would be intrinsically good for us. From birth to death Scots are told we need the UK, without which we'd be lost. Which suggests we're too lazy and/or stupid to manage our own affairs. Nurturing such a repellant attitude risks turning it into a self-fulfilling prophecy, and the current situation clearly stirs resentment on both sides of the border. There is justified frustration in England that Scottish/Irish/Welsh voters have a voice in English affairs. Likewise it is infuriating for a developed nation to be ruled by another.

Scotland and England are very distinct entities and are becoming increasingly polarised politically. Westminster is descending further into a playground for the rich and spoilt; Clegg is a political refugee and Milliband has less political weight than a fart in the wind. By merciful contrast, in Scotland we have found ourselves one of the most accomplished politicians in recent British history. That he managed to override a voting system which was designed to keep his party out demonstrates that Thursday's landslide was not simply a protest vote or a personality poll. It signals that we've grown tired of the counter-productive fear-mongering bitch contests so characteristic of the unionist parties; I hope we're beginning to embrace a more positive political vision instead. In which case a vote for independence marks a refreshing positivism: the not-so-unlikely belief that we can do a better job of governing ourselves than London has done.

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fluffycornsnake

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #57 on: May 08, 2011, 09:01:20 AM »
Also, it's worth mentioning that Scottish independence could potentially force electoral reform on England--to redress the huge advantage it would give the Tories.

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General Douchebag

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #58 on: May 08, 2011, 10:08:43 AM »
That's the single most eloquent single argument for independence I've ever seen. Where did you get the numbers for the subsidising of London, though? I was going to point that out before but had to abandon it because I had no sources, just a hunch.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 10:14:20 AM by General Douchebag »
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Hazbollah

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Re: Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
« Reply #59 on: May 08, 2011, 10:21:16 AM »
On the subject of Trident, I thought the plan for an eventual independence was to keep the Forces as they are, considering that the Scots branch is one (rather large) regiment, and the new carriers are being built in Scotland.
Always check your tackle- Caerphilly school of Health. If I see an innuendo in my post, I'll be sure to whip it out.