Disproven Flat Earth theories.

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Oracle

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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2011, 12:19:04 PM »
Yours, of course, mine at least provided a unit of force when I was done with my calculations and I can explain my thinking if you have any questions regarding my math.  Please let me know.
Here's an equation for you:
F=gmM/Dongs
m - mass of banana 1 [kg]
M - mass of banana 2 [kg]
g - universal acceleration [m/s^2] = 9.81
Dongs - mass of an infinite amount of dog poo (constant) [kg] = +infinity

Oh snap, it's 0.

Now, let's do dimensional analysis:
kg*kg*m/(kg*s^2)=N
The units are right, therefore my equation must be right!

inb4 bullshit response: You randomly chose to divide everything by the mass of the Earth. I chose infinity instead.

Actually I divided by the weight of the earth (the force that would be asserted on a mass equivalent to the earth at the surface of the earth).

And glad to see that you are taking this so seriously...

Anyway, the point was, was that I'm not about to conduct a thorough and costly experiment in a vain attempt to try to satisfy a remote challenge by someone who is going to reject and ignore the results there of anyway.

It's a frivolous experiment, and one that none of you are willing to conduct yourself under proper Zetetic observation.  Unbiased indeed, you have already made up your minds, and that is far from an unbiased or open minded position.  You guys proposed the experiment, therefore, it is up to you to either do it yourself or find suitable encouragement for someone else to do it for you.  Crying that it has yet to be done is not suitable encouragement.

I don't see that a single FE'er has even started to try the circumnavigation with a gyroscope and comparing the results against the behavior of a stationary 'control' gyroscope in other threads.  So it seems a bit of the pot calling the kettle black to me.

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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2011, 01:38:56 AM »
Anything that claims there is no such thing as gravity.
Gravity is a scientifically obseved and confirmed phenomina. There are many experiments which prove this and as such it must be accounted for in any flat earth theory.


Infinite earth theories which deal with gravity can be easily disproven by observing wheather gravity drops as height increases (disccussed here http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=47374.0). Gravity measured at the summit of mount everest is confirmed as being lower than other locations of earth.


So, what flat earth theories don't fall under either of these categories.
Its lower because there is less local non-uniform mass when you are at the top of a mountain.  You are also closer to the heavens which have a gravitational pull.  

By careful measuring and interpretation of gravimetric data including local geography and the pull of the heavens you will see gravitational pull does NOT decrease with altitude.  To account for the heavens there are several indirect methods of testing its pull, including use of examining the Coriolis force.

You keep saying this, I look forward to the day you actually demonstrate it.
But, you see, he already added an additional unknown variable, giving himself the possibility to assign whatever he wants to one of them (the gravitational pull) and decide that whatever is remaining goes to the other (the gravitational pull from the heavens). This way he can say that any measurement made, by whoever and with whatever equipment, fits his particular hypothesis.

Also, the gravitational pull on the top of high mountains is higher, not lower than at sea level with no mountain ranges close by. The gravitational pull is lower if measured from a high flying plane or a satellite, for example, but the mountain range has its own significant gravitational pull and increases the total pull seen on the top. You can see this in the gravitational surveys done for all of Earth.


I suggest you actually review what that data says.

Those are taken from a satellite above the earth at a fixed altitude. 
So long and thanks for all the fish

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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2011, 03:18:06 AM »
Actually I divided by the weight of the earth (the force that would be asserted on a mass equivalent to the earth at the surface of the earth).
Oh, yeah, you did. Anyway, I'm pretty sure this comment has no bearing on our discussion.

And glad to see that you are taking this so seriously...
What can I say? I'm easily manipulated. Anyway, I'm pretty sure this comment has no bearing on our discussion.

Anyway, the point was, was that I'm not about to conduct a[n] [...] experiment [...]
Okay.

It's a frivolous experiment, and one that none of you are willing to conduct yourself under proper Zetetic observation.
Incorrect.

Unbiased indeed, you have already made up your minds, and that is far from an unbiased or open minded position.
Because that is fundamentally different to what you represent... oh, wait.

You guys proposed the experiment, therefore, it is up to you to either do it yourself or find suitable encouragement for someone else to do it for you.
Incorrect and irrelevant.

Crying that it has yet to be done is not suitable encouragement.
Why, then, do you keep doing so?

So it seems a bit of the pot calling the kettle black to me.
It does to me too. The only thing we seem to disagree on are the positioning and/or labeling of said pot and kettle.
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Oracle

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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2011, 12:57:05 PM »
Good luck in finding some sucker willing to jump through bogus hoops for you.

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trig

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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2011, 04:08:30 PM »

I suggest you actually review what that data says.

Those are taken from a satellite above the earth at a fixed altitude. 
So, you are acknowledging the existence of satellites. Good to know.

Since satellites are impossible on a flat Earth, and these satellites are clearly showing a round Earth, I guess you are now a "round earther".

Tell me what you want me to review on the data above. All I see is that the tops of the biggest mountain ranges are the places with the stronger gravitational pull, which is consistent with my explanation.

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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2011, 04:47:14 PM »
Good luck in finding some sucker willing to jump through bogus hoops for you.
I'm not trying to find anyone. Perhaps your reading comprehension skills need a slight improvement?
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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2011, 10:57:01 PM »

I suggest you actually review what that data says.

Those are taken from a satellite above the earth at a fixed altitude.  
So, you are acknowledging the existence of satellites. Good to know.

Since satellites are impossible on a flat Earth, and these satellites are clearly showing a round Earth, I guess you are now a "round earther".

Tell me what you want me to review on the data above. All I see is that the tops of the biggest mountain ranges are the places with the stronger gravitational pull, which is consistent with my explanation.
If you see that, you are failing.  Because thats not what the data shows.

And yes, satellites exist.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  They clearly are not impossible on a flat earth, but none of these are issues I want to waste my time with on you.  I just wanted to point out to the other users that your assertions are incorrect.

If anyone is interested in the GRACE crap, do a forum search.  GRACE shows us the local geography. on a very rough scale not useful for local measurements.

However, even assuming you are right (which the grace data does not explicitly or even really implicitly show - logical fail there) it still falls perfectly in line with my comments.

On a round earth one expects the gravitational pull to go downwards with altitude.  On a flat earth, it should stay the same.


Of course, this is only true if you take into account local geography and the gravitational pull of the heavens.  In either model.  Showing that the OP was incorrect and that gravity increases near mountains also supports my  point as well as if it decreased.  The main lesson here is that I shouldn't take a round earther for his word.

When I return to rock city I'll explicitly show that the Round Earth model predictions for this will fail, and then you'll have to build some new lie in your mind to explain these facts.  Maybe you can play it on satellite data that is taken at a fixed altitude.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 12:05:47 AM by John Davis »
So long and thanks for all the fish

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Oracle

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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2011, 11:38:11 AM »
Good luck in finding some sucker willing to jump through bogus hoops for you.
I'm not trying to find anyone. Perhaps your reading comprehension skills need a slight improvement?

I think my reading comprehension is just fine and I'm getting a little tired of the personal attacks.  If you were not trying to goad me into action, then your following comment is an obvious slam and is meant to be directly confrontational and insulting:

That's because no one bothered to sufficiently test it[...]
Incorrect and very convenient. "It's there, but I won't show it to you because uuuuuuhhhhh I don't feel like it".
If you do not wish to take the challenge, no one's forcing you. However, your laziness and/or ineptitude does not affect the challenge's validity.
In other words: Please come back when you become a serious person.

So which is it?  Were you looking for a sucker? or were you being a troll?

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trig

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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2011, 08:40:24 PM »

I suggest you actually review what that data says.

Those are taken from a satellite above the earth at a fixed altitude.  
So, you are acknowledging the existence of satellites. Good to know.

Since satellites are impossible on a flat Earth, and these satellites are clearly showing a round Earth, I guess you are now a "round earther".

Tell me what you want me to review on the data above. All I see is that the tops of the biggest mountain ranges are the places with the stronger gravitational pull, which is consistent with my explanation.
If you see that, you are failing.  Because thats not what the data shows.

And yes, satellites exist.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  They clearly are not impossible on a flat earth, but none of these are issues I want to waste my time with on you.  I just wanted to point out to the other users that your assertions are incorrect.

If anyone is interested in the GRACE crap, do a forum search.  GRACE shows us the local geography. on a very rough scale not useful for local measurements.

However, even assuming you are right (which the grace data does not explicitly or even really implicitly show - logical fail there) it still falls perfectly in line with my comments.

On a round earth one expects the gravitational pull to go downwards with altitude.  On a flat earth, it should stay the same.


Of course, this is only true if you take into account local geography and the gravitational pull of the heavens.  In either model.  Showing that the OP was incorrect and that gravity increases near mountains also supports my  point as well as if it decreased.  The main lesson here is that I shouldn't take a round earther for his word.

When I return to rock city I'll explicitly show that the Round Earth model predictions for this will fail, and then you'll have to build some new lie in your mind to explain these facts.  Maybe you can play it on satellite data that is taken at a fixed altitude.
So, give us the formula for the "gravitational pull from the heavens", so we can check your data against your model.

You are contradicting yourself when you say that in a flat Earth the gravitational pull does not change with altitude, since your own model predicts no changes in gravitational pull when there are no sources of gravity other than your infinite flat Earth.

So, which is wrong: your idea of an infinite flat Earth, the existence of a gravitational pull from the Heavens, or your assertion that on a flat Earth with gravitational pull from the heavens the gravitational pull is constant with height?

And why is it that everyone who has measured gravitational pull in different places on Earth has found different values in different places?

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2011, 05:22:11 AM »
I think my reading comprehension is just fine and I'm getting a little tired of the personal attacks.
Ah, well, you may have considered not throwing insults around if you didn't want to receive them back.

If you were not trying to goad me into action, then your following comment is an obvious slam and is meant to be directly confrontational and insulting:
Who says I wasn't trying to encourage you to do your own research? Like I have said before:

If you do not wish to take the challenge, no one's forcing you. However, your laziness and/or ineptitude does not affect the challenge's validity.

So which is it?  Were you looking for a sucker? or were you being a troll?
Neither. I'm afraid your reading comprehension is not fine, after all. Let's do this one little step at a time:
-Challenge.
-This challenge is horrible because I don't want to do it, so it is therefore wrong. Also, BS, trolling, stupid, lololol.
-If you don't want to do it, don't do it. However, your argument is incredibly bad.
-OH NO YOU INSULTED ME. I am tired of personal attacks!
Mmm... No, that's not how it works, sir.

Oh, and I would recommend backing off with the "You're a troll!". It's a very convenient way out of a disagreement (very similar to your previous "I disagree with you, so you're wrong", indeed), but (similarly to the aforementioned) it's not very effective.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 05:26:46 AM by PizzaPlanet »
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Oracle

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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2011, 08:47:49 AM »
I think my reading comprehension is just fine and I'm getting a little tired of the personal attacks.
Ah, well, you may have considered not throwing insults around if you didn't want to receive them back.

...and what insult did I throw first?  If you are accusing me of doing so, then please cite the example.

If you were not trying to goad me into action, then your following comment is an obvious slam and is meant to be directly confrontational and insulting:
Who says I wasn't trying to encourage you to do your own research? Like I have said before:

If you do not wish to take the challenge, no one's forcing you. However, your laziness and/or ineptitude does not affect the challenge's validity.

So which is it?  Were you looking for a sucker? or were you being a troll?
Neither. I'm afraid your reading comprehension is not fine, after all. Let's do this one little step at a time:
-Challenge.
-This challenge is horrible because I don't want to do it, so it is therefore wrong. Also, BS, trolling, stupid, lololol.
-If you don't want to do it, don't do it. However, You are you are lazy and inept, therefore your argument is incredibly bad because you are also incompetent and exhibit poor reading comprehension.
-OH NO YOU INSULTED ME. I am tired of personal attacks!
Mmm... No, that's not how it works, sir.

Oh, and I would recommend backing off with the "You're a troll!". It's a very convenient way out of a disagreement (very similar to your previous "I disagree with you, so you're wrong", indeed), but (similarly to the aforementioned) it's not very effective.

Fixed.

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2011, 09:28:06 AM »
...and what insult did I throw first?  If you are accusing me of doing so, then please cite the example.
Oh, but of course. I'll even be courteous and go further than that. The following is in chronological order:

That's because no one bothered to sufficiently test it, and I, for one am not about to participate in a costly, tedious, and pointless experiment just to satisfy you.
That started it. Mind the tone!

Why don't you take it more seriously and sufficiently test it yourself, instead of coming up with off the wall tests to prove something that has already been demonstrated with other materials.  If you are so certain that a banana does not exert a gravitational field, then why don't you demonstrate that yourself.  I have no reason to try and justify it to you.
Ah, epithets! Such a wonderful tool to substitute arguments with!

Does you challenge come with a financial compensation to cover the cost of my time and the expense of my resources if i do this experiment?  If so, I will want a check up front and I will begin testing as soon as it clears... say $15,000 should be sufficient for me to conduct this experiment for you.
Now, this might be a slight cultural difference. You see, if you made this request during a debate where I come from, you'd be asked to leave; politely, but assertively.

Or are you just making crap up as you go and you are hoping just to BS your way through it?
Guilt complex much?

Yours, of course, mine at least provided a unit of force when I was done with my calculations and I can explain my thinking if you have any questions regarding my math.  Please let me know.
Yes, patronisation isn't welcome either.

Anyway, the point was, was that I'm not about to conduct a thorough and costly experiment in a vain attempt to try to satisfy a remote challenge by someone who is going to reject and ignore the results there of anyway.
So the point was that you're lazy. Why are you alternating between confirming it and taking offence for it? I simply don't understand.
Also, thanks for making this grand assumption about me. Really well-placed. It certainly helped you make a solid point, and gave me no grounds for calling you names back.
Oh, wait... maybe it did give me some grounds.
*ahem*
You're fat and ugly!  >:(

So it seems a bit of the pot calling the kettle black to me.
Wow, now that is a classic.

And finally, what came directly before the insult on my behalf:
Good luck in finding some sucker willing to jump through bogus hoops for you.
Let's sum this one up: We're no longer discussing. Instead, you are defending yourself against me, the demonic PizzaPlanet, who so demonically attempts to find "some sucker" as to force him to "jump through bogus hoops for me". How demonic.
Yeah. Not offensive in the slightest.

So yes, you did throw quite a few insults. And yes, you should expect to be treated much worse than I treat you.
As for your fix, I agree entirely. Your argument is incredibly bad due to your laziness and incompetence, and you do, indeed, exhibit bad reading comprehension.

Hopefully this answers your questions.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 09:30:18 AM by PizzaPlanet »
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Oracle

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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2011, 10:03:34 AM »
...and what insult did I throw first?  If you are accusing me of doing so, then please cite the example.
Oh, but of course. I'll even be courteous and go further than that. The following is in chronological order:

That's because no one bothered to sufficiently test it, and I, for one am not about to participate in a costly, tedious, and pointless experiment just to satisfy you.
That started it. Mind the tone!

Which was of course proceeded by:

gravity of banana was never shown

This is really what started it.

Why don't you take it more seriously and sufficiently test it yourself, instead of coming up with off the wall tests to prove something that has already been demonstrated with other materials.  If you are so certain that a banana does not exert a gravitational field, then why don't you demonstrate that yourself.  I have no reason to try and justify it to you.
Ah, epithets! Such a wonderful tool to substitute arguments with!
And again this was in reply to the first insult thrown by you specifically, how conveniently and quickly you blame others for your own faults, and that sword cuts both way as it is clear that no one in the FE community wants to perform the experiment either:

Incorrect and very convenient. "It's there, but I won't show it to you because uuuuuuhhhhh I don't feel like it".
If you do not wish to take the challenge, no one's forcing you. However, your laziness and/or ineptitude does not affect the challenge's validity.
In other words: Please come back when you become a serious person.

Does you challenge come with a financial compensation to cover the cost of my time and the expense of my resources if i do this experiment?  If so, I will want a check up front and I will begin testing as soon as it clears... say $15,000 should be sufficient for me to conduct this experiment for you.
Now, this might be a slight cultural difference. You see, if you made this request during a debate where I come from, you'd be asked to leave; politely, but assertively.

A costly experiment is being requested, compensation seems a reasonable request to me.  Maybe where you come from it is perfectly alright to ask random people to shell out thousands of dollars to satisfy a whim of yours without lifting a finger to help out, but where I come from that is considered quite rude and selfish in the extreme.  So, yeah, probably a cultural difference.

Or are you just making crap up as you go and you are hoping just to BS your way through it?
Guilt complex much?

Nope, but just making up formulas without rational or reasoning as appears in the quote this was replied to does appear to be completely fabricated:

Ok, i just did an experiment.The equation to measure the attractive force, if there is one, between the bananas is

[Mass of Banana 1]/[Mass of Banana 2] * 0

Oh snap! It appears there is no attractive force.

Yours, of course, mine at least provided a unit of force when I was done with my calculations and I can explain my thinking if you have any questions regarding my math.  Please let me know.
Yes, patronisation isn't welcome either.

It was a legitimate answer and a response to a question that was asked, which was far more patronizing than my reply, for which I did offer to explain my own thinking to any questions in particular, here is the quote...in case you missed it:

Are we talking about my results, or yours?  ???

Anyway, the point was, was that I'm not about to conduct a thorough and costly experiment in a vain attempt to try to satisfy a remote challenge by someone who is going to reject and ignore the results there of anyway.
So the point was that you're lazy. Why are you alternating between confirming it and taking offence for it? I simply don't understand.
Also, thanks for making this grand assumption about me. Really well-placed. It certainly helped you make a solid point, and gave me no grounds for calling you names back.
Oh, wait... maybe it did give me some grounds.
*ahem*
You're fat and ugly!  >:(

You know what, I think I will take this invitation to leave these forums and not return... I feel unwelcome here as it is.  Enjoy.

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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2011, 10:37:35 AM »
Oracle just got PizzaPlanted.
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markjo

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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2011, 11:08:46 AM »
You're fat and ugly!  >:(

Mind the tone!

Perhaps you should take your own advice.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #45 on: April 17, 2011, 11:10:12 AM »
Perhaps you should take your own advice.
Irrelevant.
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markjo

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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2011, 11:13:39 AM »
Perhaps you should take your own advice.
Irrelevant.
Listen PizzaPlanet, the rules regarding civility in the discussion forums apply to you as well.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2011, 11:15:37 AM »
Listen PizzaPlanet, the rules regarding civility in the discussion forums apply to you as well.
As they do to you! Isn't it wonderful to remind one another of this every now and then?
Granted, I can't help but notice that you didn't reprimand Oracle for being much less civil than I am.
Granted, I am not allowed to dispute moderation, so this obviously wasn't an attempt at doing so. It was merely an observation. A musing, if you will.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 11:17:13 AM by PizzaPlanet »
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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2011, 11:42:07 AM »
Oracle just got PizzaPlanted.

But that's a shame, I enjoy Oracle's posts and hope he decides to stay, after all.
I'm not black nor a thug, I'm more like god who will bring 7 plagues of flat earth upon your ass.

Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2011, 10:49:21 AM »
i think we're all missing the point here. gravity exists.

therefore the earth is not rising upwards at 9.8m/s2


Proof? Last time I check the Graviton has yet to be discovered

The Graviton? What the hell would that be? It's the MASS that makes something attracted to another, not some fancy particle. Look, the Earth is VERY massive, so that anything with a mass much smaller has little effect on attracting the Earth and is very attracted by it, hence why apples fall, because the Earth is so massive compared to it.


This experiment is also ridiculous and reeks of un-scientificism if you allow me the expression. First and foremost, the Earth is not a perfect sphere, thus the radius varies, what you have is an average. Second, usually when presenting scientific results (like the Earth's average radius) we present only 3 "significant" (sorry for my English) digits. But when you find out the a length, you keep LOADS of those digits after, while the average Earth radius HAD such digits but were dropped for the sake of having a decent number. So, doing such calculations means you IGNORE that what you have is a rounded average radius of the Earth... So that's a number not so precise (we don't need the precision considering what we use it for) and you use it in conjunction of a very precise calculation? That makes up for BIG errors. The bigger and more precise the other numbers you use, the bigger the error the result will have.

So, for such calculations with very small and precise numbers, you'd need a very precise radius, you'd at least need to know the absolute error thing, you need to know from within which range the result is in. So by knowing the range of the real value, you can give the range in which your results reside in, so you can't have a 100% accurate result. In order to have a 100% accurate result, you need 100% accurate numbers, which isn't the case here. Usually the Earth's radius is more commonly used for astrophysics and such, equations working with other big numbers which are as accurate (or almost), thus giving you a plausible result, not 100% accurate, but relatively close. But if you are looking for very very accurate numbers (ie. inches and feets are VERY accurate compared to thousands of miles), you need very very accurate numbers, and that rounded average is far from a very very accurate number, thus giving BIG errors, a BIG range of possible results which you don't even know about. That "experiment" reeks of amateurship. I'll try to come with a more accurate experiment, one probably using "cake slices" or something, with numbers with the same precision.

Okay, I tried something and came up with more than 100 feet less for the 30 miles thing. I have no idea of my thing is accurate, but I managed to use to not use the 30 miles value and use something much bigger instead. But then, thinking about it, we could always be surprised by the results. First of all, I call bullshit on his ability to see people 30 miles from where he is with a "good" telescope. 30 miles, is very far, so you'd need great magnification. And talking of good telescopes, a telescope's job isn't magnification, but accumulation more light so you can see more objects and clearer (particularly sky objects). So a good telescope might not even have magnification. And then, the bigger the magnification, the bigger your telescope needs to be, so it can accumulate more light, otherwise you won't see much. So if he REALLY can look 30 miles away with a telescope, well, he wouldn't be able to lay on his stomach at all as it would have to be way too big for that, otherwise he wouldn't see anything at all at that point. And then such telescope would be very expensive. In other words, you don't buy a telescope to be able to see 30 miles away from you on the sea level, you don't, and you can't. He probably looked on another beach much more closer than he thought, or he is making this up.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 12:25:33 PM by elduderino »

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #50 on: April 22, 2011, 10:52:58 AM »
i think we're all missing the point here. gravity exists.

therefore the earth is not rising upwards at 9.8m/s2


Proof? Last time I check the Graviton has yet to be discovered

The Graviton? What the hell would that be? It's the MASS that makes something attracted to another, not some fancy particle.

Well, you're half right (which, basically, makes you wrong).  According to relativity, it's mass that causes gravity.  But according to quantum theory, which contradicts relativity but is equally respected (go modern science!), fancy particles cause it.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #51 on: April 22, 2011, 11:03:47 AM »
i think we're all missing the point here. gravity exists.

therefore the earth is not rising upwards at 9.8m/s2


Proof? Last time I check the Graviton has yet to be discovered

The Graviton? What the hell would that be? It's the MASS that makes something attracted to another, not some fancy particle.

Oh really? So what is the mechanism of mass that attracts them to each other? This mechanism is supposed to be able to work over millions of miles, even light years!

Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #52 on: April 22, 2011, 12:07:30 PM »
The Graviton? What the hell would that be? It's the MASS that makes something attracted to another, not some fancy particle.

Oh really? So what is the mechanism of mass that attracts them to each other? This mechanism is supposed to be able to work over millions of miles, even light years!

So what is the mechanism of electric charges that makes electrons attracted to protons? The mechanism is that bigger masses attracts smaller ones, like the mechanism of electric charges is that positive charges attracts negative ones. Maybe there's something very obscure that make these things work that way, but then, what would make the graviton do what it would do? I mean, we'll always need to explain something, it's like if god exists, why does he exist? How was he created? Etc. Why wouldn't the universe be timeless? Why do you need to explain the universe with a god, if it means not explaining the god? It's throwing the ball at someone else. Saying there needs to be a fancy particle for gravitation to work is the same thing, you'd still need to explain the graviton. It's the same thing here. It's proven because it has been observed. It's proven because the Earth revolve around the sun because of their masses. I know this doesn't explain why the Earth is round as it takes this to be granted to be explained, but that's not my point.

Anyway, you can do several observations if you want. Go to an observatory, and look at the sky with the big telescope. Look at it during winter, and look at it during summer. Then go to the south pole (if you're not there already, else do the contrary) and do the same thing. You'll realize you won't be able to see the same constellations and stars, the same galaxies and all. The Magellan clouds being only observable in the south pole. Or you can use a special filter to look at the sun, and you'll see sunspots these days (they're not always there, sometimes they can disappear for decades) and then look a few days later and compare with here, there won't be at the same places. And look at the corona while you're at it. Then look at it half an hour later, and you might see the sun's ejections being taller. There's plenty of things you can look at. And the only thing that can explain Venus' phases is the heliocentric system. And how do you think they can predict auroras.

Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2011, 12:09:52 PM »

The Graviton? What the hell would that be? It's the MASS that makes something attracted to another, not some fancy particle.

Well, you're half right (which, basically, makes you wrong).  According to relativity, it's mass that causes gravity.  But according to quantum theory, which contradicts relativity but is equally respected (go modern science!), fancy particles cause it.

Well, it's because the fancy particle would cause the mass, else all our equations and such wouldn't work. But that doesn't make the particle much more relevant to our problem here, because we'd have to find a reason why the particle has such effect.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2011, 01:14:01 PM »
So what is the mechanism of electric charges that makes electrons attracted to protons?

The mechanism is electromagnetism, which is extremely well understood, documented, and proven. Gravity is not. In fact, many mainstream physicists believe that Gravity is not a fundamental force at all.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1001.0785

Please at least understand science before you come here and attempt to debate it, and tell people that they do not understand how physics work.

The mechanism is that bigger masses attracts smaller ones, like the mechanism of electric charges is that positive charges attracts negative ones. Maybe there's something very obscure that make these things work that way, but then, what would make the graviton do what it would do?

Please at least understand science before you come here and attempt to debate it, and tell people that they do not understand how physics work.

I mean, we'll always need to explain something, it's like if god exists, why does he exist? How was he created? Etc. Why wouldn't the universe be timeless? Why do you need to explain the universe with a god, if it means not explaining the god? It's throwing the ball at someone else. Saying there needs to be a fancy particle for gravitation to work is the same thing, you'd still need to explain the graviton.

So we ask for you to explain and prove how something works, and your answer is, "It is just one of those big questions!!! We'll never know how it works! We'll never know how everything works, so what does it matter if we know how this works?"

My question for you then, is if you accept this conclusion, how can you justify rejecting any scientific theory. I may say that sun light is actually produced by Zebra on the Sun. If you ask how it possibly could work that it is ridiculous, you are being a hypocrite since you have already accepted before that things do not need explanations.

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General Disarray

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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #55 on: April 22, 2011, 01:18:30 PM »
Please at least understand science before you come here and attempt to debate it, and tell people that they do not understand how physics work.

Why bother? Based on their descriptions of it, not a single "flat earth believer" understands the scientific method.
You don't want to make an enemy of me. I'm very powerful.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #56 on: April 22, 2011, 01:22:10 PM »
Please at least understand science before you come here and attempt to debate it, and tell people that they do not understand how physics work.

Why bother? Based on their descriptions of it, not a single "flat earth believer" understands the scientific method.

Irrelevant. One can not understand the scientific method and still be aware that compasses do not work via gravity.

Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #57 on: April 22, 2011, 01:36:06 PM »
So what is the mechanism of electric charges that makes electrons attracted to protons?

The mechanism is electromagnetism, which is extremely well understood, documented, and proven. Gravity is not. In fact, many mainstream physicists believe that Gravity is not a fundamental force at all.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1001.0785

Please at least understand science before you come here and attempt to debate it, and tell people that they do not understand how physics work.
I study sciences. I know electromagnetism is the mechanism, as gravitation is the mechanism for gravity. I am not attempting to debate these things as you would have understood if you properly read my post in the first place. Gravitation is harder to grasp because it works with even smaller particles, because the work of these particles is harder to see, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Quote
The mechanism is that bigger masses attracts smaller ones, like the mechanism of electric charges is that positive charges attracts negative ones. Maybe there's something very obscure that make these things work that way, but then, what would make the graviton do what it would do?

Please at least understand science before you come here and attempt to debate it, and tell people that they do not understand how physics work.
What wrong did I say? Please enlighten me on electromagnetism if you know so much about it, I'm certainly not taking classes of this right now. And well! Why do you believe everything we tell you about electromagnetism if you can't believe gravitation?

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I mean, we'll always need to explain something, it's like if god exists, why does he exist? How was he created? Etc. Why wouldn't the universe be timeless? Why do you need to explain the universe with a god, if it means not explaining the god? It's throwing the ball at someone else. Saying there needs to be a fancy particle for gravitation to work is the same thing, you'd still need to explain the graviton.

So we ask for you to explain and prove how something works, and your answer is, "It is just one of those big questions!!! We'll never know how it works! We'll never know how everything works, so what does it matter if we know how this works?"
I mean, I'm not saying there's no particle making gravitation work, what I mean is that it's irrelevant. Even if we do find these particles, even if we understand them like we understand electrons and protons, we'd still need to explain why they act like this, we'd have to go all the way back to the beginning of the universe, and then, we wouldn't be able to explain why things would work that way in the first place. We would only be able to observe what they do, thus explaining how they affect other things, which then gives you the understanding of these particles and give you the ability to work with them. That's how science works.

All this to say, my answer was not "It is just one of those big questions!!! We'll never know how it works!..." at all. My answer is "do we have to go all the way to the beginning of the universe to prove you something?" We CAN observe the effect of gravity, thus knowing if there is the graviton or whatever how it can be called or not would have no impact on this, but only help with our better understanding of how things work and it would help us do other things. We could observe electromagnetism before we knew about the electrons and protons. We know there were positive and negative charges (although we didn't call them that way), we knew all this, we knew the basics, but we knew nothing about particles being behind it. But that didn't mean it didn't exist.

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My question for you then, is if you accept this conclusion, how can you justify rejecting any scientific theory. I may say that sun light is actually produced by Zebra on the Sun. If you ask how it possibly could work that it is ridiculous, you are being a hypocrite since you have already accepted before that things do not need explanations.
Can you quote me on where I rejected any scientific theory? I was only playing with your wonderful way to refute arguments, if it wasn't obvious enough. I mean, I come here as a "RETer", and you think I'd try to disprove the biggest scientific discoveries? - well, you do try to disprove gravitation"

Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #58 on: April 22, 2011, 01:43:49 PM »
Let's try something, bend so your head is upside down and stay that way a few seconds/minutes until your head turns red and you feel a bit bad. Why? Because your blood "falls" down to your head. Care to explain?

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Disproven Flat Earth theories.
« Reply #59 on: April 22, 2011, 01:51:19 PM »
I study sciences. I know electromagnetism is the mechanism, as gravitation is the mechanism for gravity. I am not attempting to debate these things as you would have understood if you properly read my post in the first place. Gravitation is harder to grasp because it works with even smaller particles, because the work of these particles is harder to see, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

That is not an answer. Gravitation just states that objects of mass have been to be attracted to each other. The more mass, the more attraction. It does not explain why this attraction occurs, or how it works. Gravitation only states observations.

Electromagnetism and the Strong and Weak Nuclear forces also work with small particles, yet those forces are explained and understood.

What wrong did I say? Please enlighten me on electromagnetism if you know so much about it, I'm certainly not taking classes of this right now. And well! Why do you believe everything we tell you about electromagnetism if you can't believe gravitation?

Electromagnetism is explained, and the mechanics are understood. The most people can say about gravity is, "It seems to be correlated with mass". There are many discrepancies with the theory of gravity, and observations in the universe. To name a few: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitation#Anomalies_and_discrepancies

I mean, I'm not saying there's no particle making gravitation work, what I mean is that it's irrelevant. Even if we do find these particles, even if we understand them like we understand electrons and protons, we'd still need to explain why they act like this, we'd have to go all the way back to the beginning of the universe, and then, we wouldn't be able to explain why things would work that way in the first place. We would only be able to observe what they do, thus explaining how they affect other things, which then gives you the understanding of these particles and give you the ability to work with them. That's how science works.

All this to say, my answer was not "It is just one of those big questions!!! We'll never know how it works!..." at all. My answer is "do we have to go all the way to the beginning of the universe to prove you something?" We CAN observe the effect of gravity, thus knowing if there is the graviton or whatever how it can be called or not would have no impact on this, but only help with our better understanding of how things work and it would help us do other things. We could observe electromagnetism before we knew about the electrons and protons. We know there were positive and negative charges (although we didn't call them that way), we knew all this, we knew the basics, but we knew nothing about particles being behind it. But that didn't mean it didn't exist.

Yes, we would have to explain then how they got there, but how some other force works, but we would still know how Gravity works, and that is something. There is a large difference to explaining and proving one theory, and explaining the universe. It is a strawman to suggest otherwise. Nobody has ever stated that we do not observe Universal Acceleration everyday.

Let's try something, bend so your head is upside down and stay that way a few seconds/minutes until your head turns red and you feel a bit bad. Why? Because your blood "falls" down to your head. Care to explain?

Universal Acceleration.

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« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 01:53:52 PM by EnglshGentleman »