How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?

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How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« on: April 05, 2011, 06:54:31 AM »
I was waiting a long time to ask this question of you.
There was a thread about radio on flat earth debate but Dr. Bishop explained it away with a simple "AM waves simply travel through the atmosphere to reach the destination". However this is clearly false as hams have to make and aim their antennas so their signals will be reflected off the ionosphere to reach other hams across the globe.
However even with this, there is an end-point-
If the earth is flat and the ionosphere does not exist then why do we (ham radio operators, like me) need careful manipulation of our antennas to reach the desired propagation? (I don't, so far I only transmit on 2meter band)
Why do propagation conditions vary?
Why are you unable to contact antarctica from anywhere in the globe if there is an ionosphere in Flat Earth?
I know you may find this hard to explain, but at least give me an answer (or you could tack me and the rest of the world of ham radio to the "conspiracy").

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Oracle

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Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2011, 03:34:29 PM »
I'm not sure there are enough FE'ers that come to this sight that know enough about Ham Radios in order to authoritatively give you an answer beyond a best guess.

Of course, there could be a FE equivalent of the ionosphere that you are bouncing your signal off of in order to reach other hams across a flat plane too.

There are a lot of cross theories in FE.  Reasons why you might not be able to aim your antenna level may have to do with obstructions (hills and valleys, waves and weather, etc), or perhaps your radio waves are impacted by electromagnetic acceleration (the upward curvature of light across the FE, EAT attempts to explain sunsets and sunrises, and radio and light are both electromagnetic waves and would be subject to the same influences over distance) which prevent them from traversing a level path across a flat surface.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2011, 04:25:35 PM »
I personally don't know enough about the subject to give you an answer I could be confident about. However, I know there have been a number of discussions on the subject in the past. If you use the search function, you might find some of the answers you're looking for.
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Ski

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Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2011, 05:39:23 PM »
Remind me why the earth does not have an ionoplane again...    ???
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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vhu9644

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Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2011, 10:39:05 PM »
i think tom just said that becuase fe doenst have an ionoplane, it is a better model, as it makes it simpler...

 ??? idk!!!!  ???
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Tom Bishop

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Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2011, 03:35:43 PM »
In previous threads the question was brought up: Why do AM waves travel beyond the horizon? If the earth is round then it would be impossible for AM waves to be broadcasted to parts of the earth many hundreds of miles away.

The RE answer is that the AM waves "bounce" between the ionosphere and the surface of the earth numerous times to reach areas around the curvature of the earth.

The FE answer is that this wacky bouncing does not occur. Since the earth is flat and the waves can simply take a direct path.

How does a wave bounce off of the surface of the earth, anyway? How does a wave bounce off a fog of atoms? It's absurd to propose that AM waves can bounce off the atmosphere and the earth for many hundreds of miles and arrive at a location without incredible scattering. The FE explanation is the best explanation for this phenomena.

In the first post of this thread the OP claims that one has to "aim" an antenna at the ionosphere. How do you do that? The ionosphere isn't in one particular location in the RE sky. Maybe the poster just means that you have to "aim" it in the general direction you want the waves to go and then just assume that they bounce around in complex ways to reach the destination.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 03:59:52 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2011, 04:01:13 PM »


How does a wave bounce off of the surface of the earth, anyway? How does a wave bounce off a fog of atoms? It's absurd to propose that AM waves can bounce off the atmosphere and the earth for many hundreds of miles and arrive at a location without incredible scattering.

Today's lesson Tom: The universe doesn't care what you think. So whether you find a well-tested effect absurd isn't a good reason to doubt it.

Quote
In the first post of this thread the OP claims that one has to "aim" an antenna at the ionosphere. How do you do that? The ionosphere isn't in one particular location in the RE sky. Maybe the poster just means that you have to "aim" it in the general direction you want the waves to go to and then just assume that they bounce around in complex ways to reach the destination.

Or you could  instead of speculating take a bit of time to actually learn how they do it...

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Ski

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Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2011, 04:40:02 PM »
Only in RET does this:




make more sense than this:
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Tom Bishop

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Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2011, 04:56:06 PM »
Quote
Today's lesson Tom: The universe doesn't care what you think. So whether you find a well-tested effect absurd isn't a good reason to doubt it.

Well-tested? Who tested it?

Quote
Or you could  instead of speculating take a bit of time to actually learn how they do it...

Where am I supposed to learn something which does not occur?

The phrase "aiming an antenna at the ionosphere" in Google did not bring up results telling me how to aim an antenna at the ionosphere.

Only in RET does this:

http://www.g4nsj.co.uk/images/skip.jpg


make more sense than this:
http://www.g4nsj.co.uk/images/skipmap.jpg

Agreed. RET is nonsense.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 04:58:53 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Nolhekh

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Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2011, 05:01:48 PM »
The phrase "aiming an antenna at the ionosphere" in Google did not bring up results telling me how to aim an antenna at the ionosphere.

If you are unaware of the geometric situation involved here, it is no wonder you can't understand why you're wrong about the earth being flat.

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Username

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Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2011, 05:04:33 PM »
If bendy light or aetheric eddification were true,  they would travel similar geographic paths to a flat earth as radio waves are em radiation. 
So long and thanks for all the fish

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Ski

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Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2011, 05:23:34 PM »
Unfortunately, "bendy light" or EAT is so much nonsense; I cannot speak to aetheric eddification.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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markjo

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Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2011, 05:42:16 PM »
If bendy light or aetheric eddification were true,  they would travel similar geographic paths to a flat earth as radio waves are em radiation. 

Since bendy light and aetherific eddification are essentially undocumented, it's hard to say for sure.
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Tausami

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Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2011, 05:48:21 PM »
In previous threads the question was brought up: Why do AM waves travel beyond the horizon? If the earth is round then it would be impossible for AM waves to be broadcasted to parts of the earth many hundreds of miles away.

The RE answer is that the AM waves "bounce" between the ionosphere and the surface of the earth numerous times to reach areas around the curvature of the earth.

The FE answer is that this wacky bouncing does not occur. Since the earth is flat and the waves can simply take a direct path.

How does a wave bounce off of the surface of the earth, anyway? How does a wave bounce off a fog of atoms? It's absurd to propose that AM waves can bounce off the atmosphere and the earth for many hundreds of miles and arrive at a location without incredible scattering. The FE explanation is the best explanation for this phenomena.

In the first post of this thread the OP claims that one has to "aim" an antenna at the ionosphere. How do you do that? The ionosphere isn't in one particular location in the RE sky. Maybe the poster just means that you have to "aim" it in the general direction you want the waves to go and then just assume that they bounce around in complex ways to reach the destination.

Tom, radio waves are no different from visible light waves except for frequency. Are you telling me that light does not bounce off of things? And to answer how it works, that's quite simple. The 'wave' is actually made of photons, which are mass-less particles that contain one quantum of energy (the smallest amount of energy that can be gained to lost by an atom). When a photon hits an atom, that quantum causes an electron in the atom to rise one energy level. When the electron falls back down, it releases the quantum in another direction. This is also the reason that radio quality decays. When it travels through air, the atoms are less densely packed, so photons collide with atoms less often, but they still do.

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Ski

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Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2011, 06:11:38 PM »
Tom, radio waves are no different from visible light waves except for frequency. Are you telling me that light does not bounce off of things?

Are you telling me I can bounce a spot light off the ionoplane?
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Tom Bishop

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Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2011, 06:30:22 PM »
Tom, radio waves are no different from visible light waves except for frequency. Are you telling me that light does not bounce off of things?

Are you telling me I can bounce a spot light off the ionoplane?

Ski has illustrated the absurdity of the RE hypothesis once again.

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Tausami

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Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2011, 06:47:31 PM »
Tom, radio waves are no different from visible light waves except for frequency. Are you telling me that light does not bounce off of things?

Are you telling me I can bounce a spot light off the ionoplane?

Theoretically, with a strong enough light.

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markjo

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Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2011, 07:21:04 PM »
Tom, radio waves are no different from visible light waves except for frequency. Are you telling me that light does not bounce off of things?

Are you telling me I can bounce a spot light off the ionoplane?

Ski has illustrated the absurdity of the RE hypothesis once again.

No, Ski has illustrated his lack of understanding of RET once again.  Different materials have different reflective/transmissive properties to different EM wavelengths (even in FET).
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2011, 07:31:28 PM »
Tom, radio waves are no different from visible light waves except for frequency. Are you telling me that light does not bounce off of things?

Are you telling me I can bounce a spot light off the ionoplane?

Some small amount of light would bounce off. And in principle if you had a strong enough light you could do so. However, different substances have different responses to different wavelengths. That's why objects are different colors. For example, if your shirt is red that means that it is absorbing most of the non-red visible light and reflecting most of the red light. Similarly, the ionosphere reflects a segment of the wavelengths corresponding to certain classes of radio frequencies. There's nothing complicated about this, this is standard 19th century physics which you can test in a lab yourself if you want to.

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vhu9644

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Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2011, 10:14:56 PM »
Tom, radio waves are no different from visible light waves except for frequency. Are you telling me that light does not bounce off of things?

Are you telling me I can bounce a spot light off the ionoplane?

Some small amount of light would bounce off. And in principle if you had a strong enough light you could do so. However, different substances have different responses to different wavelengths. That's why objects are different colors. For example, if your shirt is red that means that it is absorbing most of the non-red visible light and reflecting most of the red light. Similarly, the ionosphere reflects a segment of the wavelengths corresponding to certain classes of radio frequencies. There's nothing complicated about this, this is standard 19th century physics which you can test in a lab yourself if you want to.

tom bishop has demonstrated more of his lack of understanding
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Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2011, 12:21:53 PM »


How does a wave bounce off of the surface of the earth, anyway? How does a wave bounce off a fog of atoms? It's absurd to propose that AM waves can bounce off the atmosphere and the earth for many hundreds of miles and arrive at a location without incredible scattering. The FE explanation is the best explanation for this phenomena.

In the first post of this thread the OP claims that one has to "aim" an antenna at the ionosphere. How do you do that? The ionosphere isn't in one particular location in the RE sky. Maybe the poster just means that you have to "aim" it in the general direction you want the waves to go and then just assume that they bounce around in complex ways to reach the destination.

I am very sure if you ask some local hams they would show you how it is done.

Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2011, 01:25:21 PM »
I'm surprised people are questioning that light can bounce off of air. After all, that is why the sky is blue

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Skeleton

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Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2011, 04:21:29 PM »
this is standard 19th century physics which you can test in a lab yourself if you want to.

So was the Cavendish Experiment, and the FE crowd like to pretend that doesnt work either...  ::)
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sillyrob

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Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2011, 08:55:47 PM »
Isn't Zeteticism all about ignoring the facts that prove you wrong?

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General Disarray

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Re: How does Flat Earth explain radio propagation?
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2011, 08:20:41 AM »
Isn't Zeteticism all about ignoring the facts that prove you wrong?

Or trying desperately to discredit them using false information or logical fallacies.
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