Serious thoughts

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EnragedPenguin

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Serious thoughts
« Reply #60 on: September 06, 2006, 04:36:26 PM »
Quote from: "dysfunction"
However, it seems to me absolutely ridiculous to take this dark energy, which has never been observed, about the properties of which we know nothing, and to claim that it fuels some unimaginably powerful, never-observed engine that propels the Earth at a constant acceleration of 9.8m/s/s over the last several billion years.


The flat Earth theory doesn't claim the "dark energy" accelerating the eath is the same dark energy hypothesized by round Earth scientists. Nor that it has the same properties. We just used the name for want of a better one.
A different world cannot be built by indifferent people.

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« Reply #61 on: September 07, 2006, 06:03:08 AM »
Curious wrote
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Interesting idea, but what makes you think that? Astronomers report that it is red shifted, which would suggest that it is moving away from us, not towards us.



The Andromeda galaxy is blue shifted, but don't take my word for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromeda_Galaxy

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turkeyman

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« Reply #62 on: September 07, 2006, 06:19:35 AM »
It's all smoke and mirrors.

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« Reply #63 on: September 07, 2006, 06:57:45 AM »
Dysfunction wrote

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Actually, it's known that the universe is expanding, however its expansion appears to be accelerating- which should be impossible because of gravity. Therefore, cosmologists have postulated "dark energy" as additional, unobserved energy that is powering this acceleration.


Well that sounds ridiculous, not the expansion but more the acceleration!
Do you mean that the rate of star formation is accelerating or that the matter contained within the universe is accelerating ever outwards at a continuously increasing velocity?

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turkeyman

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« Reply #64 on: September 07, 2006, 07:59:04 AM »
It should be impossible because it would violate the first law of thermodynamics not because of gravity. Although you can never escape gravity you can reach escape velocity.

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dysfunction

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« Reply #65 on: September 07, 2006, 08:24:48 AM »
Quote from: "Pogmothoin"
Dysfunction wrote

Quote
Actually, it's known that the universe is expanding, however its expansion appears to be accelerating- which should be impossible because of gravity. Therefore, cosmologists have postulated "dark energy" as additional, unobserved energy that is powering this acceleration.


Well that sounds ridiculous, not the expansion but more the acceleration!
Do you mean that the rate of star formation is accelerating or that the matter contained within the universe is accelerating ever outwards at a continuously increasing velocity?


Apparently, all of spacetime is expanding at an accelerating rate, and the galaxies along with it.
the cake is a lie

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« Reply #66 on: September 07, 2006, 09:18:01 AM »
Quote from: "Pogmothoin"
Curious wrote
Quote
Interesting idea, but what makes you think that? Astronomers report that it is red shifted, which would suggest that it is moving away from us, not towards us.



The Andromeda galaxy is blue shifted, but don't take my word for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromeda_Galaxy

I stand corrected on the fact, but not my point:
Quote
http://www.egglescliffe.org.uk/physics/astronomy/doppler/doppler.html

(i) Red-shifts and the Expansion of the Universe:
We can observe features in the spectra obtained from distant galaxies and compare
their wavelengths/frequencies with those measured in the laboratory. We find that,apart from galaxies within our Local Group (such as the Andromeda spiral), the light from distant galaxies has been "red-shifted" - the wavelengths of spectral lines are longer than those measured on Earth (ie. Dl is +ve) SO THESE GALAXIES ARE MOVING AWAY FROM US. This is a consequence of the general expansion of the Universe: all clusters of galaxies are moving away from each other.

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dysfunction

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« Reply #67 on: September 07, 2006, 09:21:28 AM »
Quote from: "Curious"
Quote from: "Pogmothoin"
Curious wrote
Quote
Interesting idea, but what makes you think that? Astronomers report that it is red shifted, which would suggest that it is moving away from us, not towards us.



The Andromeda galaxy is blue shifted, but don't take my word for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromeda_Galaxy

I stand corrected on the fact, but not my point:
Quote
http://www.egglescliffe.org.uk/physics/astronomy/doppler/doppler.html

(i) Red-shifts and the Expansion of the Universe:
We can observe features in the spectra obtained from distant galaxies and compare
their wavelengths/frequencies with those measured in the laboratory. We find that,apart from galaxies within our Local Group (such as the Andromeda spiral), the light from distant galaxies has been "red-shifted" - the wavelengths of spectral lines are longer than those measured on Earth (ie. Dl is +ve) SO THESE GALAXIES ARE MOVING AWAY FROM US. This is a consequence of the general expansion of the Universe: all clusters of galaxies are moving away from each other.


On a local scale, galaxies can move towards, away from, diagonal to, etc., relative to each other, but on the vast scale everything moves away from everything else, at a velocity directly proportional to the distance.
the cake is a lie

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« Reply #68 on: September 07, 2006, 12:57:45 PM »
And ever accelerating Dysfunction? This is true if you are a subscriber to the 'open universe' lobby. With that model we will eventually be shredded and all that will be left is ever diminishing clouds of gas. A beginning and an end.
I prefer to think of an oscillating universe a big bang and a big crunch repeated forever and ever.
As for suggesting accelerating bodies wandering off anything  other than a straight path toward their destiny, that is absurd in the extreme!

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« Reply #69 on: September 08, 2006, 10:09:56 AM »
Quote from: "dysfunction"
[

On a local scale, galaxies can move towards, away from, diagonal to, etc., relative to each other, but on the vast scale everything moves away from everything else, at a velocity directly proportional to the distance.


Not necessarily.

If the universe were a plate, and everything were accelerating towards the centre of the plate, then it would look the same as if the universe were a plate that was stretching (in terms of red shift.)  So you could have a giant black hole at the middle of the universe and actually everything's being sucked in to it, not shooting out at an accelerating rate.

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dysfunction

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« Reply #70 on: September 08, 2006, 11:11:44 AM »
No, that's not true. In that case many things would appear to be blue-shifted.
the cake is a lie

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« Reply #71 on: September 08, 2006, 01:22:43 PM »
Quote from: "Captain.Sassy"
Quote from: "dysfunction"
[

On a local scale, galaxies can move towards, away from, diagonal to, etc., relative to each other, but on the vast scale everything moves away from everything else, at a velocity directly proportional to the distance.


Not necessarily.

If the universe were a plate, and everything were accelerating towards the centre of the plate, then it would look the same as if the universe were a plate that was stretching (in terms of red shift.)  So you could have a giant black hole at the middle of the universe and actually everything's being sucked in to it, not shooting out at an accelerating rate.


Objects lateral to you (the same distance to center), would be accelerating towards you.  Assuming it was gravity pulling you, all objects outwards from you, or in front of you, would appear to be receeding, since you would be accelerating faster than anything further out, but any oject closer to center would be accelerating faster than you. So you would be flanked by blue shift, but ahead and behind would be red shifted.

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« Reply #72 on: September 09, 2006, 01:32:09 PM »
Curious wrote
Quote
Objects lateral to you (the same distance to center), would be accelerating towards you. Assuming it was gravity pulling you, all objects outwards from you, or in front of you, would appear to be receeding, since you would be accelerating faster than anything further out, but any oject closer to center would be accelerating faster than you. So you would be flanked by blue shift, but ahead and behind would be red shifted.


I see your line of thought there, but the fact is that the universe is actually expanding, It's just the accelerating bit that I can't get my head around.
Me thinks we just might about be feeling the G force by now!

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« Reply #73 on: September 10, 2006, 05:51:16 PM »
Quote from: "Pogmothoin"
Curious wrote
Quote
Objects lateral to you (the same distance to center), would be accelerating towards you. Assuming it was gravity pulling you, all objects outwards from you, or in front of you, would appear to be receeding, since you would be accelerating faster than anything further out, but any oject closer to center would be accelerating faster than you. So you would be flanked by blue shift, but ahead and behind would be red shifted.


I see your line of thought there, but the fact is that the universe is actually expanding, It's just the accelerating bit that I can't get my head around.
Me thinks we just might about be feeling the G force by now!


My understanding (Which is really limited and will probably get torn up by soem of the others here) is that there is no psuedo acceleration effect because space itself is expanding.   Like the expanding ballon anology used elsewhere, as the balloon expands all points on the surface become more distant from each other, but have not accelerated in respect to their particular location in space.

Think of a X,Y,Z graph where the scale keeps increasing, but you keep your same coordinates.