Are dreams real?

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sillyrob

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2011, 12:04:02 AM »
But if you see moon shrimp in a dream, is that evidence that they exist? Or would it be more realistic to say it's the start of an idea that there might be shrimp on the moon, and further evidence is needed before conclusion?

Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2011, 12:31:29 AM »
I wonder what does moon shrimp taste like with some pasta dipped in alfredo sauce.
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Horatio

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2011, 12:32:50 PM »
Dreams are not empirical evidence and it is trolling if they are used as such.
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Mr Pseudonym

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2011, 04:55:24 PM »
Dreams are not empirical evidence and it is trolling if they are used as such.
Funny, I dreamt last night that you would post the exact same thing.
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Around And About

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2011, 05:54:33 PM »
Oh man, it is fixing to get all inceptional up in this.
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General Disarray

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2011, 06:19:11 PM »
My point is that when a dream is the only evidence presented for something (as it is many times here), I have reason to doubt its veracity.
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sillyrob

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2011, 06:43:03 PM »
My point is that when a dream is the only evidence presented for something (as it is many times here), I have reason to doubt its veracity.
The point is generally lost when FE'ers post because you have to avoid anything that proves you wrong.

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Oracle

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2011, 02:01:51 AM »
Dreams are not empirical evidence and it is trolling if they are used as such.
Funny, I dreamt last night that you would post the exact same thing.

Good example!

Here the dream was a personal subjective experience, but it did not become evident (or evidence) until the point after Horatio made his comment.

No Dreams cannot be used by themselves as Empirical Evidence (Empirical yes, Evidence no)

Yes, Dreams do sometimes reflect reality, but often, they do not.

Yes, Dreams can lead us to solving problems we had when we went to sleep, but again, they do not become evident/evidence until you can manifest it and show the results of that dream in the morning (or sometime later if the morning is not convenient).

Yes, dreams can lead you to discover evidence, but they do not qualify as evidence.  It may be real to you, but it won't be real to anyone else until it does become evident.  It is the point where it becomes evident that is the evidence itself, not the idea that lead you there.

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2011, 02:19:10 AM »
It would seem yet another person does not understand the difference between evidence and proof. I suggest correcting this.
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2011, 04:09:42 AM »
Unless you wish to posit the existence of some kind of supernatural soul or self, then dreams are a product (and thus connected to and representative) of objective reality.


Moreover, I do believe that they accurately represent reality. I think most of us have dreams which for the most part accord with our day to day experiences, and many practised oneiromancers find dreams useful in guiding practical action. Indeed, many people awake from dreams with a newfound and seemingly intuitive understanding of themselves, other people and until then problematic real-life situations.


As for whether or not they can be "used as valid evidence for a theory", the obvious answers would be either a) yes, as they already are (even outside the FE/RE debate), or b) maybe, as whether or not they are considered valid evidence for a theory depends entirely on the theoretical framework in question.
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markjo

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2011, 06:16:28 AM »
Wilmore, insight is not the same as evidence. 
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2011, 06:21:15 AM »
Wilmore, insight is not the same as evidence. 
Indeed. Insight is much more than evidence. Your point?
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2011, 07:42:39 AM »
Wilmore, insight is not the same as evidence. 


Yes, but the insight offered by dreams is evidence that dreams have a disclosive capacity, which appears to be what is in question.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Oracle

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2011, 09:12:45 AM »
It would seem yet another person does not understand the difference between evidence and proof. I suggest correcting this.

I'm not sure who this was directed at, but in case it was directed at me...

evidence : one or more reasons for believing that something is or is not true

Dreams, by themselves, do not meet this criteria.  They are personal subjective manifestations of the subconscious imagination which may or may mot reflect reality.  There is absolutely no reason to believe that a dream, by itself, will show something in reality as true or not true.

proof : a fact or piece of information which shows that something exists or is true

A proof qualifies as evidence, but evidence does not necessarily qualify as a proof.  I'm well aware of the difference, but perhaps you were directing your comment at someone else?

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Hessy

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2011, 05:54:47 AM »
Dreams can provide empirical data given certain criteria and have the capacity to provide a basis to convert this data to evidence.

Sure, it can be empircal, but not in the sense that it's actually proof of anything.

You dream that a spider is in a cupboard in your home. In your dream the spider is trapped and is in need of assistance.  Upon waking, you go the cupboard and the spider is there in need of assistance.  The utility of the dream can not be disputed. 

What if I dream that I'm making love to Pamela Anderson, but upon waking up, find myself cold and alone in bed in a dark, empty house?

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2011, 08:14:42 AM »
What if I dream that I'm making love to Pamela Anderson, but upon waking up, find myself cold and alone in bed in a dark, empty house?

Then you're probably too good at math.  :'(
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Oracle

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2011, 10:30:55 AM »
What if I dream that I'm making love to Pamela Anderson, but upon waking up, find myself cold and alone in bed in a dark, empty house?

Then you're probably too good at math.  :'(

:D  ROFL!!!!  :D

Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2011, 02:03:11 PM »
OK Around and About, you couldn't take a joke that I made about math, so avengfully you decided to make it your signature? Some of you won't get laid not because you are good in math but because you have no sense of humor.

Anyways dreams are non sense. Today I saw a series of the most meaningless dreams ever; I was running away from big foot, then I saw myself in my dead grandmother's old house and she was alive talking to me. We were standing at her balcony and watching air balloons. Then my dad stole a Lexus SUV along with traffic light, I was pissed at him, because I knew he was gonna get caught. Then I went out with this hot Middle Easter girl, but at the same time her father was always by her side and she told me she was dating someone else or something like that.  Then I went to a carnival but the rides and games were all closed and some marching band was parading around. I was half naked and carried an umbrella for some reason, while there was no rain.

Now you tell me if this series of dreams make any sense? lol
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sillyrob

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2011, 02:04:44 PM »
It makes no sense at all.

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Beorn

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2011, 02:14:16 PM »
OK Around and About, you couldn't take a joke that I made about math, so avengfully you decided to make it your signature? Some of you won't get laid not because you are good in math but because you have no sense of humor.

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #50 on: March 22, 2011, 04:54:37 PM »
Well at least he is not from Germany, or any other wanna be gangsta country lol
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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2011, 08:18:07 PM »
Wow...well, what is there to say after that?
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2011, 08:27:48 PM »
If Einstein had dreamed up E=MC2 would his theories be any less valid?

If Newton had dreamed up F=MA would his theories be any less valid?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 08:47:57 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #53 on: March 22, 2011, 08:51:14 PM »
If Einstein had dreamed up E=MC2 would his theories be any less valid?

If Newton had dreamed up F=MA would his theories be any less valid?

If Stephen Hawking had dreamed up his theory of expanding space-time would his theory be any less valid?

The difference is between having something revealed to you in a dream that can later be verified and tested in the material world; and something revealed to you in a dream that only the dream itself is evidence for. I believe the latter is what the OP is asking about.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #54 on: March 22, 2011, 09:14:47 PM »
If Einstein had dreamed up E=MC2 would his theories be any less valid?

If Newton had dreamed up F=MA would his theories be any less valid?

If Stephen Hawking had dreamed up his theory of expanding space-time would his theory be any less valid?

The difference is between having something revealed to you in a dream that can later be verified and tested in the material world; and something revealed to you in a dream that only the dream itself is evidence for. I believe the latter is what the OP is asking about.

Exactly the point markjo was making. 

Dr Bishop used to be a brilliant zeteticist but lately I think he might be spending a little too much time in the moonlight, if you know what I mean.
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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #55 on: March 22, 2011, 09:36:54 PM »
Weeellllp, they don't call it moonshine fer nuthin'.
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General Disarray

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #56 on: March 22, 2011, 11:00:45 PM »
So if the theories I refer to (the ones that only have people's dreams to back them up) were true, I would expect the dreams to be followed up with rigorous investigation to prove them. Sadly, this is not the case.
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #57 on: March 23, 2011, 05:30:58 AM »
So if the theories I refer to (the ones that only have people's dreams to back them up) were true, I would expect the dreams to be followed up with rigorous investigation to prove them. Sadly, this is not the case.


Unfortunately, ascertaining whether or not Luna exist through non-oneiric means is not presently within our capacity. Also, it's worth pointing out that following up oneiric discoveries with "rigorous investigation" would not automatically make them "true".
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Demouse

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #58 on: March 23, 2011, 07:29:28 AM »
A Dream is not evidence.

A Dream can be a good way to interpret evidence due to the change in brainwaves giving a new perspective.

Dreaming and seeing a flat earth means nothing at all.

After having seen a large ammount of evidence in support of flat earth and going to sleep undecided, then hacing a dream that reveals insight into that evidence which causes you to conclude the earth is flat could mean somthing.

The converse is also true

Neither constitutes evidence, but it can provide opinion.

This being the internet however, opinion is everywhere and valueless.


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Tom Bishop

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Re: Are dreams real?
« Reply #59 on: March 23, 2011, 08:47:14 AM »
If Einstein had dreamed up E=MC2 would his theories be any less valid?

If Newton had dreamed up F=MA would his theories be any less valid?

If Stephen Hawking had dreamed up his theory of expanding space-time would his theory be any less valid?

The difference is between having something revealed to you in a dream that can later be verified and tested in the material world; and something revealed to you in a dream that only the dream itself is evidence for. I believe the latter is what the OP is asking about.

If I dream up 1+1=2 I don't need to test out my equation in the real world for it to be valid. The equation was already validated in my dream.