Prayer During Government Meetings

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Prayer During Government Meetings
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2011, 11:52:27 AM »
So it could theoretically be interpreted a different way?
  The first amendment was written to keep the State from telling you what religion to be. They especially did not like being forced to in The Church of England.

       Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

That's only part of it, you highlighted the free excercise clause, the one that comes before it is more relevant to this discussion.

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Ski

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Re: Prayer During Government Meetings
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2011, 01:30:54 PM »
I fail to see the allowance of time for prayer meeting any real definition of law (or action, for that matter) "respecting an establishing of religion." 
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Vindictus

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Re: Prayer During Government Meetings
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2011, 01:48:42 PM »
I fail to see the allowance of time for prayer meeting any real definition of law (or action, for that matter) "respecting an establishing of religion." 

They are setting official time aside for prayer when a meeting starts. That is not a separation of Church and State.

But like I said, I don't really care, and it's probably more of a good thing than a bad thing.

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Ski

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Re: Prayer During Government Meetings
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2011, 01:53:48 PM »
They are setting official time aside for prayer when a meeting starts. That is not a separation of Church and State.

But again, "separation of Church and State" is only relevant in light of the phrase "shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." I still fail to see how this allowance meets any real definition of such a legal action.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Vindictus

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Re: Prayer During Government Meetings
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2011, 01:58:15 PM »
But again, "separation of Church and State" is only relevant in light of the phrase "shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." I still fail to see how this allowance meets any real definition of such a legal action.

They've passed a Bill that allows them to pray on official time. That is respecting a religion.

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Lorddave

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Re: Prayer During Government Meetings
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2011, 02:00:56 PM »
But again, "separation of Church and State" is only relevant in light of the phrase "shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." I still fail to see how this allowance meets any real definition of such a legal action.

They've passed a Bill that allows them to pray on official time. That is respecting a religion.
Specifically a religion that prays.
Gone.

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Ski

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Re: Prayer During Government Meetings
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2011, 02:03:43 PM »
But again, "separation of Church and State" is only relevant in light of the phrase "shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." I still fail to see how this allowance meets any real definition of such a legal action.

They've passed a Bill that allows them to pray on official time. That is respecting a religion.
Is that a law "respecting(in regards to) the establishment a religion?" Because the phrase is not "shall make no law respecting(giving homage to) a (somewhat nebulous in this example) religion."
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Prayer During Government Meetings
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2011, 03:31:29 PM »
Politicians pray more than anyone I know.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Prayer During Government Meetings
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2011, 03:32:23 PM »
It may be enlightening to discuss James Madison's interpretation on the establishment clause specifically, since he was the one who proposed it to congress, with the rest of the bill of rights.  

He discusses it in great detail in Detached Memoranda, which is available online.

Here are a few parts I want to point out.

Quote
In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U. S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them; and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does not this involve the principle of a national establishment, applicable to a provision for a religious worship for the Constituent as well as of the representative Body, approved by the majority, and conducted by Ministers of religion paid by the entire nation.

I think the bolded part is important, what he is saying is the constitution does more than just forbid the establishment of a state religion, it goes much further, as he puts it, the establishment clause forbids anything like an establishment of religion.  

You can also see the intent by reading some of the earlier drafts of the first amendment seen here.  Many of the earlier drafts simply forbid the establishment of a state religion, the final draft, added the word "respecting", indicating that this was intended to have a broader prohibition.

Another interesting point by Madision which should shed some light on things like a "National Day of Prayer".  I found this a few paragraphs down from the last quote:

Quote
Religious proclamations by the Executive recommending thanksgivings & fasts are shoots from the same root with the legislative acts reviewed.

Altho' recommendations only, they imply a religious agency, making no part of the trust delegated to political rulers.

He goes on from there.  

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Ski

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Re: Prayer During Government Meetings
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2011, 04:33:40 PM »
Well, as to state-funded chaplains, I frankly agree. And to days of fasts or thanksgiving or prayer, I think it depends on the instance. For example, I would be firmly against a "recommendation" to observe fasting for Good Friday or Yamim Noraim or Ramadan. I would also be against a "Day of Prayer" that coincides with any religious holy day. I find it difficult to quibble with the non-ecclesiastical and rather nebulous "Thanksgiving" or "National Day of Prayer". I'm not sure what specific early 19th century proclamations he had taken issue with, so I find it hard to say whether we are in disagreement or not. 
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Prayer During Government Meetings
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2011, 10:05:50 AM »
What bothers me about these people passing a law so they can pray at meetings (besides it being unconstitutional), isn't that they pray, it's that they insinuate they weren't allowed to pray before. Also, this kind of law is nothing more than pandering to Christians who think they need to take back America from the godless heathens. It may not seem like much to get upset about, but I think it's dangerous. 

Is having a big group prayer somehow more pious than praying privately?  I guess it is when you're a politician. You have to let the world know you're on team Jesus so they'll reelect you.  They should read Mathew 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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hoppy

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Re: Prayer During Government Meetings
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2011, 12:41:33 PM »
So it could theoretically be interpreted a different way?
  The first amendment was written to keep the State from telling you what religion to be. They especially did not like being forced to in The Church of England.

       Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

  The Amendments are limitations on government, not limitations on people.
  If people want to pray, whether they be in the Government or not, the government should not tell them not to pray.
God is real.                                         
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9665708/Flat-Earth-Bible-02-of-10-The-Flat-Earth

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EnigmaZV

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Re: Prayer During Government Meetings
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2011, 12:46:08 PM »
So it could theoretically be interpreted a different way?
  The first amendment was written to keep the State from telling you what religion to be. They especially did not like being forced to in The Church of England.

       Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

  The Amendments are limitations on government, not limitations on people.
  If people want to pray, whether they be in the Government or not, the government should not tell them not to pray.

The bill in question allows for prayer during senate meetings.  Since the person who is praying presumably has the floor, nobody else is permitted to talk until the prayer is over.  This effectively forces everybody to be involved in the prayer.  People were permitted to pray before the senate meeting all they wanted, however, since it was before the meeting, if somebody didn't want to participate, they were free to socialize with others who also chose not to participate.
I don't know what you're implying, but you're probably wrong.

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hoppy

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Re: Prayer During Government Meetings
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2011, 01:27:57 PM »
So it could theoretically be interpreted a different way?
  The first amendment was written to keep the State from telling you what religion to be. They especially did not like being forced to in The Church of England.

       Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

  The Amendments are limitations on government, not limitations on people.
  If people want to pray, whether they be in the Government or not, the government should not tell them not to pray.

The bill in question allows for prayer during senate meetings.  Since the person who is praying presumably has the floor, nobody else is permitted to talk until the prayer is over.  This effectively forces everybody to be involved in the prayer.  People were permitted to pray before the senate meeting all they wanted, however, since it was before the meeting, if somebody didn't want to participate, they were free to socialize with others who also chose not to participate.
If someone wants to use their time praying, what does it matter. That does not force you to listen.
   Some times they read the phone book during floor time.
God is real.                                         
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9665708/Flat-Earth-Bible-02-of-10-The-Flat-Earth

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Vindictus

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Re: Prayer During Government Meetings
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2011, 01:34:44 PM »
If someone wants to use their time praying, what does it matter. That does not force you to listen.
   Some times they read the phone book during floor time.

They can, and did, pray before the meetings.

What has reading the phone book got to do with anything?

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hoppy

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Re: Prayer During Government Meetings
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2011, 01:38:06 PM »
I'm just saying that if they can read the phonebook during floor time, why would it matter if they prayed instead.
God is real.                                         
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9665708/Flat-Earth-Bible-02-of-10-The-Flat-Earth

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Tausami

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Re: Prayer During Government Meetings
« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2011, 04:09:51 PM »
I'm just saying that if they can read the phonebook during floor time, why would it matter if they prayed instead.

What you speak of is filibustering. That's when they keep talking about random shit so no one can vote. What we are speaking of is politicians pandering to christians by telling them how pious they are.

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Trekky0623

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Re: Prayer During Government Meetings
« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2011, 07:07:10 AM »

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Lorddave

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Re: Prayer During Government Meetings
« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2011, 08:27:48 AM »
Kevin for mod!
Gone.