Poll

Should the U.S. intervene militarily in the 2011 Libyan Uprising?

Yes. The U.S. should aid the rebels in overthrowing the Gaddafi regime.
No. The U.S. should stay out of it and let the Libyans decide their country's fate.
I don't know.

Regarding the current situation in Libya..

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2011, 02:43:11 AM »
I do not argue that intervention is always wrong, Nov 17. There have been occasions when it is necessary to intervene (Kosovo and Rwanda jump immediately to mind) however I think in this instance, we may do more harm than good.

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Hazbollah

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2011, 08:41:40 AM »
something interesting that the DOD mentioned was that a 'no fly zone' isn't just sending jets to fly around the country. The first step is to launch a brutal missile assault on anti-air defences and air fields. Basically, you have to destroy all of their big guns and planes, then you can fly around. I would be far more invasive than it sounds.


Not necessarily; it basically depends on a) how loyal Libyan forces are their leader, and b) if they are loyal, whether Khadaffi wants to provoke such a campaign by targeting the aircraft enforcing that no-fly zone.


If you ask me, I doubt his pilots would be loyal enough inevitable death at the hands of NATO pilots. Same goes for his missile defences.
The Libyan SAM and AA cannon crews would be far more willing to resist a perceived western invasion than shoot their own people. If the western militaries enforce a no-fly zone go in, they have to eliminate their air defences. If they do that, the west is the aggressor on the Libyans' own soil, and as such NATO (or whoever does it) can expect no quarter from that point on. With a no-fly zone, it will be all or nothing. If the west goes in half-heartedly, it will suffer heavy losses for limited results, and if it goes all in it will suffer fewer losses to SAMs (due to more assault capacity) for greater results.

I am against conventional military intervention, though. I would prefer a Special Forces presence (covert ops behind Ghadaffi's lines) to a no-fly zone. However, I think we should stay out of this one.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2011, 05:19:00 PM »
Gen. Wesley Clark says Libya doesn't meet the test for U.S. military action http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/11/AR2011031103244_2.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Horatio

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2011, 04:04:05 AM »
Gen. Wesley Clark says Libya doesn't meet the test for U.S. military action http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/11/AR2011031103244_2.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

He nearly started a battle, if not a war, with the Russians at Pristina airport in Kosovo, so his notion of what meets the test for U.S. military action is questionable.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/671495.stm
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2011, 10:29:30 AM »
Don't Let Qaddafi Win. Ignore the "realists." If we do nothing, the situation in Libya can only get worse. (Christopher Hitchens on the situation in Libya) http://www.slate.com/id/2288214/
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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17 November

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2011, 04:34:08 PM »
Don't Let Qaddafi Win. Ignore the "realists." If we do nothing, the situation in Libya can only get worse. (Christopher Hitchens on the situation in Libya) http://www.slate.com/id/2288214/
So we finally disagree about something political.  Christopher Hitchens is a neo-conservative who zealously promoted the Iraq war.



do you think it was right that the outside world did nothing while a genocide happened in Rwanda?
I think that the US did best to the extent that it did nothing at all.  This is because no matter how bad a given situation may be, the US has proven it will make it even worse.

If you think we have any kind of moral responsability towards other human beings, then it is absurd to say 'intervention is always wrong'.
Not true.  Moral responsibility to others and the military intervention which is murder that you advocate are opposites.  I am no fan of men like Hitler or Saddam Hussein, but US intervention in WWII was wrong.  Fascism is bound to win the war if it controls both sides.  Military intervention is always wrong - least of all against a freedom fighter like Khaddafi.

You can't have your cake and eat it.
I'm eating cake right now (the non-dairy variety since it is Lent).

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2011, 05:02:58 PM »
Don't Let Qaddafi Win. Ignore the "realists." If we do nothing, the situation in Libya can only get worse. (Christopher Hitchens on the situation in Libya) http://www.slate.com/id/2288214/
So we finally disagree about something political.  Christopher Hitchens is a neo-conservative who zealously promoted the Iraq war.

No, you disagree with Christopher Hitchens.  I only posted the link to his article. 

I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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17 November

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2011, 01:29:09 AM »
So we finally disagree about something political.

No, you disagree with Christopher Hitchens.  I only posted the link to his article.

I do disagree with Hitchens, but I would also honestly disagree with this:
Don't Let Qaddafi Win.

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Mr Pseudonym

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2011, 01:34:13 AM »
The US should go interfere.  They are clearly on a role at winning wars, just look at the situation with the war on terror.  US = awesome.
Why do we fall back to earth? Because our weight pushes us down, no laws, no gravity pulling us. It is the law of intelligence.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2011, 09:46:08 AM »
So we finally disagree about something political.

No, you disagree with Christopher Hitchens.  I only posted the link to his article.

I do disagree with Hitchens, but I would also honestly disagree with this:
Don't Let Qaddafi Win.

That was a quote from Christopher Hitchens' article.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Benocrates

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2011, 12:09:27 PM »
If you think we have any kind of moral responsability towards other human beings, then it is absurd to say 'intervention is always wrong'.
Not true.  Moral responsibility to others and the military intervention which is murder that you advocate are opposites.  I am no fan of men like Hitler or Saddam Hussein, but US intervention in WWII was wrong.  Fascism is bound to win the war if it controls both sides.  Military intervention is always wrong - least of all against a freedom fighter like Khaddafi.

Can you explain how this isn't absurd?
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Get the fuck over it.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2011, 03:56:08 PM »
The UN security council just voted to impose a no-fly zone.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Jack

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2011, 03:57:08 PM »
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 03:58:49 PM by Jack »

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Mr Pseudonym

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2011, 04:01:28 PM »
The UN authorizes no-fly zone over Libya:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/africa-mideast/un-security-council-authorizes-no-fly-zone-over-libya/article1945738/

About time..


EDIT: Heh, SCG beat me to it.
Do people come here to get their daily news?
Why do we fall back to earth? Because our weight pushes us down, no laws, no gravity pulling us. It is the law of intelligence.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2011, 04:06:41 PM »
We sometimes come here to discuss the daily news, is that a problem?
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Tausami

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2011, 04:13:30 PM »
If you think we have any kind of moral responsability towards other human beings, then it is absurd to say 'intervention is always wrong'.
Not true.  Moral responsibility to others and the military intervention which is murder that you advocate are opposites.  I am no fan of men like Hitler or Saddam Hussein, but US intervention in WWII was wrong.  Fascism is bound to win the war if it controls both sides.  Military intervention is always wrong - least of all against a freedom fighter like Khaddafi.

Are you saying that FDR was a dictator?

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Mr Pseudonym

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2011, 04:17:25 PM »
We sometimes come here to discuss the daily news, is that a problem?
It may well be.
Why do we fall back to earth? Because our weight pushes us down, no laws, no gravity pulling us. It is the law of intelligence.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2011, 04:21:08 PM »
If you think we have any kind of moral responsability towards other human beings, then it is absurd to say 'intervention is always wrong'.
Not true.  Moral responsibility to others and the military intervention which is murder that you advocate are opposites.  I am no fan of men like Hitler or Saddam Hussein, but US intervention in WWII was wrong.  Fascism is bound to win the war if it controls both sides.  Military intervention is always wrong - least of all against a freedom fighter like Khaddafi.


All I can say is that I disagree. Moral responsability is not just about not doing things that are wrong, but preventing others from doing wrong. I would hope that everyone here would stop a murder or a rape if they saw it happening, even if that meant killing the would-be murderer or rapist. Using limited military force to prevent genocide is no different, and perhaps even more justifiable.
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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2011, 04:29:29 PM »
The UN just imposed a no-fly zone over Libya.
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Wakka Wakka

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2011, 04:31:34 PM »
If you think we have any kind of moral responsability towards other human beings, then it is absurd to say 'intervention is always wrong'.
Not true.  Moral responsibility to others and the military intervention which is murder that you advocate are opposites.  I am no fan of men like Hitler or Saddam Hussein, but US intervention in WWII was wrong.  Fascism is bound to win the war if it controls both sides.  Military intervention is always wrong - least of all against a freedom fighter like Khaddafi.


All I can say is that I disagree. Moral responsability is not just about not doing things that are wrong, but preventing others from doing wrong. I would hope that everyone here would stop a murder or a rape if they saw it happening, even if that meant killing the would-be murderer or rapist. Using limited military force to prevent genocide is no different, and perhaps even more justifiable.
I do agree with this to a certain extent.  I would have supported the Iraq War significantly more if Bush would have announced it's primary goal was to remove a repressive, genocidal gov't, but then again, where would the intervention end?  When all of Africa is liberated from genocide and the Russians stop kidnapping separatists, etc.
Normally when I'm not sure I just cop a feel.

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Mr Pseudonym

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2011, 04:31:50 PM »
The UN just imposed a no-fly zone over Libya.
In case, you missed the other posts just the same.
Why do we fall back to earth? Because our weight pushes us down, no laws, no gravity pulling us. It is the law of intelligence.

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17 November

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2011, 04:39:30 PM »
If you think we have any kind of moral responsability towards other human beings, then it is absurd to say 'intervention is always wrong'.
Not true.  Moral responsibility to others and the military intervention which is murder that you advocate are opposites.  I am no fan of men like Hitler or Saddam Hussein, but US intervention in WWII was wrong.  Fascism is bound to win the war if it controls both sides.  Military intervention is always wrong - least of all against a freedom fighter like Khaddafi.
Can you explain how this isn't absurd?

The idea that sending a military invasion is a form of moral responsibility is an absurdity and a lie.  

Anyone who advocates military intervention is an advocate of violence and terrorism - not morality.  Claiming morality only combines the sin of lying with murder.

When US military personnel die in battle, they are murderers who meet their ends by dying for their sins.

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17 November

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2011, 04:45:14 PM »
If you think we have any kind of moral responsability towards other human beings, then it is absurd to say 'intervention is always wrong'.
Not true.  Moral responsibility to others and the military intervention which is murder that you advocate are opposites.  I am no fan of men like Hitler or Saddam Hussein, but US intervention in WWII was wrong.  Fascism is bound to win the war if it controls both sides.  Military intervention is always wrong - least of all against a freedom fighter like Khaddafi.

Are you saying that FDR was a dictator?

He may have had his faults, but he also had a lot of good characteristics that are perhaps less recognized these days than they used to be.  I think of certain others in the US of Roosevelt's time as infinitely worse than Roosevelt.  They tried unsuccessfully to overthrow him in 1934 and perhaps assassinated him in 1945.  I view Roosevelt as a tool of the right-wing to appease the masses.  His new deal was not radical enough, but constituted the outer limits of what would be tolerated as far as genuine social improvement.  In this way, he is similar to Obama.  They are tools of the right-wing.

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Mr Pseudonym

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2011, 04:49:30 PM »
We sometimes come here to discuss the daily news, is that a problem?
Regardless, my news sources are saying that the UN is about to start carpet bombing the place any minute now.  Let's pray for those lives about to be lost for no reason whatsoever by a bloodthirsty so called peacekeeping mission.
Why do we fall back to earth? Because our weight pushes us down, no laws, no gravity pulling us. It is the law of intelligence.

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2011, 04:51:20 PM »
There could be raids aided by foreign countries soon.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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17 November

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2011, 06:46:33 PM »
If you think we have any kind of moral responsability towards other human beings, then it is absurd to say 'intervention is always wrong'.
Not true.  Moral responsibility to others and the military intervention which is murder that you advocate are opposites.  I am no fan of men like Hitler or Saddam Hussein, but US intervention in WWII was wrong.  Fascism is bound to win the war if it controls both sides.  Military intervention is always wrong - least of all against a freedom fighter like Khaddafi.

All I can say is that I disagree.

One good thing is that we can agree to disagree. 
I have agreed with your take on many issues, but your position on this is very inconsistent, and I do not follow people like that in spite of the fact that I might often agree with them.

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Benocrates

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #56 on: March 18, 2011, 07:32:56 AM »
If you think we have any kind of moral responsability towards other human beings, then it is absurd to say 'intervention is always wrong'.
Not true.  Moral responsibility to others and the military intervention which is murder that you advocate are opposites.  I am no fan of men like Hitler or Saddam Hussein, but US intervention in WWII was wrong.  Fascism is bound to win the war if it controls both sides.  Military intervention is always wrong - least of all against a freedom fighter like Khaddafi.
Can you explain how this isn't absurd?

The idea that sending a military invasion is a form of moral responsibility is an absurdity and a lie.  

Anyone who advocates military intervention is an advocate of violence and terrorism - not morality.  Claiming morality only combines the sin of lying with murder.

When US military personnel die in battle, they are murderers who meet their ends by dying for their sins.

Are the rest of you going to stop feeding this troll yet? This is just pure troll sophistry. Anyone who engages 17 in debate is officially a rube.
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Pot had helped
Get the fuck over it.

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Hazbollah

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #57 on: March 18, 2011, 11:10:30 AM »
The UN says they are imposing air control over Libya to stop the killing of civilians by Ghadaffi's men. But what if, out of desperation, the rebels start killing Loyalist civilians in Tobruk, Benghazi and other rebel enclaves? If they don't strike the rebels for such an offence, that would be a glaring double standard. Just a thought there.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 11:14:25 AM by Hazbollah »
Always check your tackle- Caerphilly school of Health. If I see an innuendo in my post, I'll be sure to whip it out.

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Benocrates

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #58 on: March 18, 2011, 11:13:01 AM »
I think that is the biggest risk of the resolution. Ultimately I suppose it will depend on the requests of the SecGen and how NATO executes them.
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Pot had helped
Get the fuck over it.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Regarding the current situation in Libya..
« Reply #59 on: March 18, 2011, 11:22:36 AM »
The Libyan government has declared a ceasefire. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. The reports on the BBC say that fighting was still going on after the ceasefire was declared, including aerial bombing.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord