Forces: What they are, and what they are not.

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Thevoiceofreason

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Forces: What they are, and what they are not.
« on: February 23, 2011, 12:42:37 PM »
ITT: We distinguish between what is a force, in the most fundamental idea, and what is a source.
This is isn't a "look what I learned in physics, dad" thread. I'm just tired of people (mostly FE'ers and RE noobs) calling x a force, when it's a source. The other day ago, someone told me that the solar system in FE had 3 less forces than what's needed in RE. When I talk about forces in the upper fora, this is what I base it on. So I want your input into the validity of this. aka Questions, comments, complaints?:


The basic definition of a force is something that changes the path of an object from its inertial path. In GR gravity isn't a force, the inertial path is toward the gravitating body, the normal force, is actually the electric force, the only important force involved in the dynamic system of planets. Forces act at a distance, they are the exchange of force bearing particles, i.e. the photon. The force on a body, is based only on the relative position of that body and the force coming from it, nothing else. For non infinite bodies, force must vary with position. Things that don't fit this criteria are magic, in that they break the axioms of physics.

A rubber band works via the electric force, when stretched, atoms inside attract each other to contract the total length of the band.
It is probably already known that pulling on something is the same as pushing it, from another perspective. But in general when objects are pushed, it is the electric force, which explains why above I stated that the electric force is the only force involved with orbits in the solar system.

Now lets examine UA in the non GR context (obviously if GR is right UA doesn't exist). Firstly, the only observed facts about the mechanism, is that objects on the earth and the earth accelerate toward each other. This in no way shape or form tells you that there is an object under the earth accelerating it, because all we know if the relative acceleration, which doesn't tell us which body(ies) have a force(s) acting on them. If it is some expanding substance called dark energy, then this should be acting on the Earth, through the pushing electric force, not the heavens. In order for the heaven's to stay in this same frame of reference as the earth, they need A) a force, and B) a source. Neither of which can be assumed to be UA and the electric force,  for the same reason. Finally the movement of the Sun and moon, require a centripetal force, as inertial paths are straight. Here again we need a force, and two sources. The source can't be the earth, as it is in RE, for obvious reasons. Whatever this source is, it too requires a source and force as well. repeat.

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hoppy

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 11684
Re: Forces: What they are, and what they are not.
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2011, 08:46:36 AM »
ITT: We distinguish between what is a force, in the most fundamental idea, and what is a source.
This is isn't a "look what I learned in physics, dad" thread. I'm just tired of people (mostly FE'ers and RE noobs) calling x a force, when it's a source. The other day ago, someone told me that the solar system in FE had 3 less forces than what's needed in RE. When I talk about forces in the upper fora, this is what I base it on. So I want your input into the validity of this. aka Questions, comments, complaints?:


The basic definition of a force is something that changes the path of an object from its inertial path. In GR gravity isn't a force, the inertial path is toward the gravitating body, the normal force, is actually the electric force, the only important force involved in the dynamic system of planets. Forces act at a distance, they are the exchange of force bearing particles, i.e. the photon. The force on a body, is based only on the relative position of that body and the force coming from it, nothing else. For non infinite bodies, force must vary with position. Things that don't fit this criteria are magic, in that they break the axioms of physics.

A rubber band works via the electric force, when stretched, atoms inside attract each other to contract the total length of the band.It is probably already known that pulling on something is the same as pushing it, from another perspective. But in general when objects are pushed, it is the electric force, which explains why above I stated that the electric force is the only force involved with orbits in the solar system.

Now lets examine UA in the non GR context (obviously if GR is right UA doesn't exist). Firstly, the only observed facts about the mechanism, is that objects on the earth and the earth accelerate toward each other. This in no way shape or form tells you that there is an object under the earth accelerating it, because all we know if the relative acceleration, which doesn't tell us which body(ies) have a force(s) acting on them. If it is some expanding substance called dark energy, then this should be acting on the Earth, through the pushing electric force, not the heavens. In order for the heaven's to stay in this same frame of reference as the earth, they need A) a force, and B) a source. Neither of which can be assumed to be UA and the electric force,  for the same reason. Finally the movement of the Sun and moon, require a centripetal force, as inertial paths are straight. Here again we need a force, and two sources. The source can't be the earth, as it is in RE, for obvious reasons. Whatever this source is, it too requires a source and force as well. repeat.

  After trying to stay awake and read this, I tried to plug a rubber band in the wall outlet. The rubber band is not working what should I do?
God is real.                                         
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9665708/Flat-Earth-Bible-02-of-10-The-Flat-Earth

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John Davis

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Re: Forces: What they are, and what they are not.
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2011, 09:21:08 AM »
Now lets examine UA in the non GR context (obviously if GR is right UA doesn't exist). Firstly, the only observed facts about the mechanism, is that objects on the earth and the earth accelerate toward each other. This in no way shape or form tells you that there is an object under the earth accelerating it, because all we know if the relative acceleration, which doesn't tell us which body(ies) have a force(s) acting on them. If it is some expanding substance called dark energy, then this should be acting on the Earth, through the pushing electric force, not the heavens. In order for the heaven's to stay in this same frame of reference as the earth, they need A) a force, and B) a source. Neither of which can be assumed to be UA and the electric force,  for the same reason. Finally the movement of the Sun and moon, require a centripetal force, as inertial paths are straight. Here again we need a force, and two sources. The source can't be the earth, as it is in RE, for obvious reasons. Whatever this source is, it too requires a source and force as well. repeat.
You should look at PES theory;  there should be a post about it in believers or info repos.  Another thing to look at is a search for bowshock, specifically by TheEngineer.
Quantum Ab Hoc

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EnglshGentleman

  • Flat Earth Editor
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Re: Forces: What they are, and what they are not.
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2011, 09:40:52 AM »
I searched for bowshock and got nothing.  :(

EDIT: Nevermind! "Bow shock"

Am now reading!

Gosh, John has a good memory!
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 09:43:42 AM by EnglshGentleman »

Re: Forces: What they are, and what they are not.
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2011, 02:32:03 PM »
ITT: We distinguish between what is a force, in the most fundamental idea, and what is a source.
This is isn't a "look what I learned in physics, dad" thread. I'm just tired of people (mostly FE'ers and RE noobs) calling x a force, when it's a source. The other day ago, someone told me that the solar system in FE had 3 less forces than what's needed in RE. When I talk about forces in the upper fora, this is what I base it on. So I want your input into the validity of this. aka Questions, comments, complaints?:


The basic definition of a force is something that changes the path of an object from its inertial path. In GR gravity isn't a force, the inertial path is toward the gravitating body, the normal force, is actually the electric force, the only important force involved in the dynamic system of planets. Forces act at a distance, they are the exchange of force bearing particles, i.e. the photon. The force on a body, is based only on the relative position of that body and the force coming from it, nothing else. For non infinite bodies, force must vary with position. Things that don't fit this criteria are magic, in that they break the axioms of physics.

A rubber band works via the electric force, when stretched, atoms inside attract each other to contract the total length of the band.
It is probably already known that pulling on something is the same as pushing it, from another perspective. But in general when objects are pushed, it is the electric force, which explains why above I stated that the electric force is the only force involved with orbits in the solar system.

Now lets examine UA in the non GR context (obviously if GR is right UA doesn't exist). Firstly, the only observed facts about the mechanism, is that objects on the earth and the earth accelerate toward each other. This in no way shape or form tells you that there is an object under the earth accelerating it, because all we know if the relative acceleration, which doesn't tell us which body(ies) have a force(s) acting on them. If it is some expanding substance called dark energy, then this should be acting on the Earth, through the pushing electric force, not the heavens. In order for the heaven's to stay in this same frame of reference as the earth, they need A) a force, and B) a source. Neither of which can be assumed to be UA and the electric force,  for the same reason. Finally the movement of the Sun and moon, require a centripetal force, as inertial paths are straight. Here again we need a force, and two sources. The source can't be the earth, as it is in RE, for obvious reasons. Whatever this source is, it too requires a source and force as well. repeat.


I'm confused by the bold bit. Could you explain it a little more?

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Thevoiceofreason

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Re: Forces: What they are, and what they are not.
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2011, 03:40:14 PM »
ITT: We distinguish between what is a force, in the most fundamental idea, and what is a source.
This is isn't a "look what I learned in physics, dad" thread. I'm just tired of people (mostly FE'ers and RE noobs) calling x a force, when it's a source. The other day ago, someone told me that the solar system in FE had 3 less forces than what's needed in RE. When I talk about forces in the upper fora, this is what I base it on. So I want your input into the validity of this. aka Questions, comments, complaints?:


The basic definition of a force is something that changes the path of an object from its inertial path. In GR gravity isn't a force, the inertial path is toward the gravitating body, the normal force, is actually the electric force, the only important force involved in the dynamic system of planets. Forces act at a distance, they are the exchange of force bearing particles, i.e. the photon. The force on a body, is based only on the relative position of that body and the force coming from it, nothing else. For non infinite bodies, force must vary with position. Things that don't fit this criteria are magic, in that they break the axioms of physics.

A rubber band works via the electric force, when stretched, atoms inside attract each other to contract the total length of the band.It is probably already known that pulling on something is the same as pushing it, from another perspective. But in general when objects are pushed, it is the electric force, which explains why above I stated that the electric force is the only force involved with orbits in the solar system.

Now lets examine UA in the non GR context (obviously if GR is right UA doesn't exist). Firstly, the only observed facts about the mechanism, is that objects on the earth and the earth accelerate toward each other. This in no way shape or form tells you that there is an object under the earth accelerating it, because all we know if the relative acceleration, which doesn't tell us which body(ies) have a force(s) acting on them. If it is some expanding substance called dark energy, then this should be acting on the Earth, through the pushing electric force, not the heavens. In order for the heaven's to stay in this same frame of reference as the earth, they need A) a force, and B) a source. Neither of which can be assumed to be UA and the electric force,  for the same reason. Finally the movement of the Sun and moon, require a centripetal force, as inertial paths are straight. Here again we need a force, and two sources. The source can't be the earth, as it is in RE, for obvious reasons. Whatever this source is, it too requires a source and force as well. repeat.

  After trying to stay awake and read this, I tried to plug a rubber band in the wall outlet. The rubber band is not working what should I do?

The rubber band's resistance is too high. This doesn't mean their are no electrons in it. When you stretch the intermolecular bonds, you create a potential energy, because bond's have the lowest energy at certain length
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 04:03:38 PM by Thevoiceofreason »

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Thevoiceofreason

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Re: Forces: What they are, and what they are not.
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2011, 03:49:09 PM »
ITT: We distinguish between what is a force, in the most fundamental idea, and what is a source.
This is isn't a "look what I learned in physics, dad" thread. I'm just tired of people (mostly FE'ers and RE noobs) calling x a force, when it's a source. The other day ago, someone told me that the solar system in FE had 3 less forces than what's needed in RE. When I talk about forces in the upper fora, this is what I base it on. So I want your input into the validity of this. aka Questions, comments, complaints?:


The basic definition of a force is something that changes the path of an object from its inertial path. In GR gravity isn't a force, the inertial path is toward the gravitating body, the normal force, is actually the electric force, the only important force involved in the dynamic system of planets. Forces act at a distance, they are the exchange of force bearing particles, i.e. the photon. The force on a body, is based only on the relative position of that body and the force coming from it, nothing else. For non infinite bodies, force must vary with position. Things that don't fit this criteria are magic, in that they break the axioms of physics.

A rubber band works via the electric force, when stretched, atoms inside attract each other to contract the total length of the band.
It is probably already known that pulling on something is the same as pushing it, from another perspective. But in general when objects are pushed, it is the electric force, which explains why above I stated that the electric force is the only force involved with orbits in the solar system.

Now lets examine UA in the non GR context (obviously if GR is right UA doesn't exist). Firstly, the only observed facts about the mechanism, is that objects on the earth and the earth accelerate toward each other. This in no way shape or form tells you that there is an object under the earth accelerating it, because all we know if the relative acceleration, which doesn't tell us which body(ies) have a force(s) acting on them. If it is some expanding substance called dark energy, then this should be acting on the Earth, through the pushing electric force, not the heavens. In order for the heaven's to stay in this same frame of reference as the earth, they need A) a force, and B) a source. Neither of which can be assumed to be UA and the electric force,  for the same reason. Finally the movement of the Sun and moon, require a centripetal force, as inertial paths are straight. Here again we need a force, and two sources. The source can't be the earth, as it is in RE, for obvious reasons. Whatever this source is, it too requires a source and force as well. repeat.


I'm confused by the bold bit. Could you explain it a little more?

Ok. I'm assuming GR.

So I assume that
a) gravity is not a force, and consequently
b) something traveling with gravity (free fall) is an inertial frame
c) something on the ground is an accelerated frame


If something on the earth's surface is in an accelerated frame, then obviously there is a force behind it. Looking at the standard model, the electric force is the most likely candidate. In chemistry, you learn that molecules avoid being near each other, due to their electron cloud. The same thing can be said about macro objects. So essentially, the electrons between your feet and the ground are repelling each other.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force#Normal_force

I guess I was a bit vague about the whole planetary system. I meant the system of Sun, Earth, planets, moons, oceans, and objects on them.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 04:09:45 PM by Thevoiceofreason »

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Thevoiceofreason

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Re: Forces: What they are, and what they are not.
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2011, 06:20:09 PM »
Now lets examine UA in the non GR context (obviously if GR is right UA doesn't exist). Firstly, the only observed facts about the mechanism, is that objects on the earth and the earth accelerate toward each other. This in no way shape or form tells you that there is an object under the earth accelerating it, because all we know if the relative acceleration, which doesn't tell us which body(ies) have a force(s) acting on them. If it is some expanding substance called dark energy, then this should be acting on the Earth, through the pushing electric force, not the heavens. In order for the heaven's to stay in this same frame of reference as the earth, they need A) a force, and B) a source. Neither of which can be assumed to be UA and the electric force,  for the same reason. Finally the movement of the Sun and moon, require a centripetal force, as inertial paths are straight. Here again we need a force, and two sources. The source can't be the earth, as it is in RE, for obvious reasons. Whatever this source is, it too requires a source and force as well. repeat.
You should look at PES theory;  there should be a post about it in believers or info repos.  Another thing to look at is a search for bowshock, specifically by TheEngineer.

I'm confused, my OP was just info about GR and the standard model (not a fringe theory)