Question About Zeteticism

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Question About Zeteticism
« on: February 24, 2011, 12:12:38 AM »
So if a zetetic does LSD or for some other reason hallucinates...would you believe that these hallucinations actually exist?  Does doing those sorts of things give you some strange ability to see into another dimension, or read peoples' minds?   ???
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Pongo

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2011, 12:50:02 AM »
No.  The observations need to be repeatable and it adds weight if others can observe it as well.  For instance, I can observe a force pulling me down at all times.  Now, the source of this force is highly debated, but we can all observe it and we cal all observe it over and over.  If only I saw a flying orange dolphin once in my life when I knew I was under the influence of a hallucination, then I would be inclined to not believe it was real. 

Also, as far as I know, there is no such thing that allows people to read others minds.  LSD included.  As for seeing into another dimension, I would have to know how you are defining the word dimension.  I regularly look into the second dimension and my mind constructs a third dimensional model from that information.  Arguably, I can even look into the fourth dimension.  If you are talking about the dimension that Species 8472 lives in, and assuming viewing of this dimension is possible, I can not see why you wouldn't be able to do it under the influence of LSD.  However, the sole act of ingesting LSD has not yet been demonstrated to grant the user the ability to view another dimension on their own.

I hope this helps.

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squevil

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2011, 07:25:38 PM »
it does seem to open your mind in some strange way. after you try it once you never really see the world in the same way again. imo it certainly opens some doors

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2011, 09:43:56 PM »
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No.  The observations need to be repeatable and it adds weight if others can observe it as well.  For instance, I can observe a force pulling me down at all times.  Now, the source of this force is highly debated, but we can all observe it and we cal all observe it over and over.
Then just take LSD more than once.

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Also, as far as I know, there is no such thing that allows people to read others minds.  LSD included.
It can, however, cause the one hallucinating to believe he is.  So using the zetetic point of view, it very much would be right for him to say he most likely is.
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Pongo

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2011, 10:03:16 PM »
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No.  The observations need to be repeatable and it adds weight if others can observe it as well.  For instance, I can observe a force pulling me down at all times.  Now, the source of this force is highly debated, but we can all observe it and we cal all observe it over and over.
Then just take LSD more than once.

I've never taken LSD.  Are the hallucinations the exact same every time?

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2011, 11:24:04 PM »
They can be similar, or very different.  But you can easily see the same things multiple times.
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squevil

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2011, 05:11:20 PM »
its very rare that you will actually see something that isnt there unless you take lots (as in wayy to much). usually it will lead to wobbly paterns and mix you senses (you may see sounds). so if you ignore actual objects apearing in thin air the things you may witness are generally the same for everybody

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Username

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2011, 01:34:03 AM »
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So if a zetetic does LSD or for some other reason hallucinates...would you believe that these hallucinations actually exist?  Does doing those sorts of things give you some strange ability to see into another dimension, or read peoples' minds?   
Not necessarily.  However their chemical explanation does not invalidate any belief you may come to through these methods.
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hoppy

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2011, 04:41:34 AM »
Drugs are bad for you, bad for your mind.
God is real.                                         
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9665708/Flat-Earth-Bible-02-of-10-The-Flat-Earth

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markjo

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2011, 06:11:00 AM »
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So if a zetetic does LSD or for some other reason hallucinates...would you believe that these hallucinations actually exist?  Does doing those sorts of things give you some strange ability to see into another dimension, or read peoples' minds?   
Not necessarily.  However their chemical explanation does not invalidate any belief you may come to through these methods.
Drugs may be able to provide insights, but I'd make sure that they were verified by non-hallucinogenic means before telling anyone.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Username

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2011, 06:36:33 AM »
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So if a zetetic does LSD or for some other reason hallucinates...would you believe that these hallucinations actually exist?  Does doing those sorts of things give you some strange ability to see into another dimension, or read peoples' minds?   
Not necessarily.  However their chemical explanation does not invalidate any belief you may come to through these methods.
Drugs may be able to provide insights, but I'd make sure that they were verified by non-hallucinogenic means before telling anyone.
What matters is not the validation of these insights, but ensuring they are valid worth;  that is paramount.
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Ski

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2011, 01:03:49 PM »
I have never used a mind-altering drug --nor do I encourage their use --, but this thread reminded me of the discussion with levee of "Cosmic Serpent: DNA and the Origins of Knowledge" by J. Narby. I have not read the book yet, but have read some other of his writings and found him very interesting.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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gotham

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2011, 07:17:53 PM »
The Zetetic would not want to record observations while under hallucinogenic influence.  All the senses are abstractly affected and true sensory input should not be obstructed or enhanced by any substance that alters a natural state of perception through such disorganization of the thought process. 

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James

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2011, 07:22:35 PM »
I abhor all drugs with the single exception of free phosphorus, which is conducive to superior mental health and physical vitality. I have no shame in admitting that my own formidable ruminations are supplemented by this powerful elixir, which calcifies in my brain and strengthens the neural pathways, as well as conferring onto my limbs and organs the robust vigour of a strapping youth, even in my old age.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2011, 07:24:44 PM »
I share James' disgust of drugs. However, most of you already know that by now.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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Around And About

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2011, 07:42:09 PM »
It's just as well; I can't imagine what you guys would be like on drugs.  :P
I'm not black nor a thug, I'm more like god who will bring 7 plagues of flat earth upon your ass.

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markjo

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2011, 07:46:48 PM »
I abhor all drugs with the single exception of free phosphorus, which is conducive to superior mental health and physical vitality. I have no shame in admitting that my own formidable ruminations are supplemented by this powerful elixir, which calcifies in my brain and strengthens the neural pathways, as well as conferring onto my limbs and organs the robust vigour of a strapping youth, even in my old age.

Be careful, James.  Too much phosphorus can be harmful:
Quote from: http://www.healthsupplementsnutritionalguide.com/Phosphorus.html#TOXICITY
Too much phosphorus can cause serious electrolyte imbalances.  It draws calcium out of bones and weakens them, leading to brittle bones.  Excess calcium and phosphorus together may result in harmful calcium deposits or calcification, in soft tissues such as the lungs, heart, muscles, eyes, blood vessels, and especially the kidneys.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2011, 01:29:24 AM »
The Zetetic would not want to record observations while under hallucinogenic influence.  All the senses are abstractly affected and true sensory input should not be obstructed or enhanced by any substance that alters a natural state of perception through such disorganization of the thought process. 
Why?  A true Zetetic wouldn't cast it off so quickly without firsthand observation by their own senses that it was anything bad or that they shouldn't do.
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gotham

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2011, 03:44:20 PM »
The Zetetic would not want to record observations while under hallucinogenic influence.  All the senses are abstractly affected and true sensory input should not be obstructed or enhanced by any substance that alters a natural state of perception through such disorganization of the thought process. 
Why?  A true Zetetic wouldn't cast it off so quickly without firsthand observation by their own senses that it was anything bad or that they shouldn't do.

By its nature, a hallucination produced by that class of drugs is known to be perception altering. True Zetetic individuals could confirm that, as you stated, and support that it is bad time for observation while under the influence.

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2011, 09:43:06 PM »
How do you know it's not heightening your senses, or that the "drug" is a gateway into seeing into another universe?
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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2011, 04:17:11 AM »
One cannot say that the relevations brought on by drugs or heavy meditation are of no use simply because of their biological origin and their difference from the normal state of being.
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Hazbollah

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2011, 11:17:03 AM »
I feel that drug-induced hallucinations can be enlightening. However, the enlightenment that is brought on by these experiences may only be philosophical or spiritual, I doubt that they can further one's scientific understanding.
Always check your tackle- Caerphilly school of Health. If I see an innuendo in my post, I'll be sure to whip it out.

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2011, 12:08:10 PM »
I feel that drug-induced hallucinations can be enlightening. However, the enlightenment that is brought on by these experiences may only be philosophical or spiritual, I doubt that they can further one's scientific understanding.
A notable counter example would be the discovery of the DNA double helix.
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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2011, 02:08:15 PM »
I feel that drug-induced hallucinations can be enlightening. However, the enlightenment that is brought on by these experiences may only be philosophical or spiritual, I doubt that they can further one's scientific understanding.
A notable counter example would be the discovery of the DNA double helix.
The creator of PCR is a great example.
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gotham

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2011, 03:52:52 PM »
Revelations originating from a drug-induced state could be of use if a useful end was created as a result of the means even though I certainly don't promote such activity.  

I put meditation in a different category since revelations from it are created by non-external influences and the output is certainly worthwhile.

When I address Zeteticism and the recording of observations it is of my belief that no external variable that distorts the reality of that moment should be resident at that time.  
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 03:54:59 PM by gotham »

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bullhorn

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2011, 09:38:42 PM »
Gotham, from my own experience.  A few decades ago, in university, I was experimenting with drugs.  I can say that my masters thesis, was, for the most part created in a drug induced state.  The great minds of our time were users of recreational drugs.  
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 09:40:40 PM by bullhorn »

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gotham

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2011, 11:17:28 AM »
Gotham, from my own experience.  A few decades ago, in university, I was experimenting with drugs.  I can say that my masters thesis, was, for the most part created in a drug induced state.  The great minds of our time were users of recreational drugs.  

Brother bullhorn, that does fit into my first category where the end justifies the means and the output is useful, indeed. You are correct that the great minds of our time were users of recreational drugs. 

I find that it is the observation and recording of reality around us for purposes of the Zetetic process that is better served when it does not involve the additional stimulation produced by the drugs mentioned so that the sensorial experience is not expanded beyond the ability of anyone to duplicate the experience without the same .       

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Hazbollah

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2011, 02:19:47 PM »
I feel that drug-induced hallucinations can be enlightening. However, the enlightenment that is brought on by these experiences may only be philosophical or spiritual, I doubt that they can further one's scientific understanding.
A notable counter example would be the discovery of the DNA double helix.
IIRC this was in a dream, I haven't a clue on whether it was drug induced. I could very well be wrong though, as it is in my notebook which I have (in a profoundly idiotic manner) left at school the one weekend I needed to have it at home.
Always check your tackle- Caerphilly school of Health. If I see an innuendo in my post, I'll be sure to whip it out.

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2011, 03:48:55 PM »
Ichi could be right; I may be thinking of PCR.  Crick LSD DNA I think is an urban legend, though his use of LSD is well documented and he has even talked of it in interviews.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 03:54:02 PM by John Davis »
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markjo

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Re: Question About Zeteticism
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2011, 04:00:17 PM »
Here is what Cracked has to say on the subject:
Quote from: http://www.cracked.com/article_16532_the-5-greatest-things-ever-accomplished-while-high.html
Why It Makes Sense:

The double helix is essentially the Sgt. Peppers of scientific models, a ladder that's been melted and twirled by a pasta fork, or the two snakes from the caduceus if one of them was fucking the other with 100 dicks (depending on whether the artist ate the good or bad acid).

Now obviously scientists don't arrive at models by doodling on their trapper keeper and picking out the shape that looks the coolest. To do what Crick did required an insane amount of analytical, theoretical, and spatial thinking. It's not like Crick dropped out of high school and then used acid to turn himself into a supergenius.

Crick was a fan of Aldous Huxley's The Doors of Perception, a study of the human mind which was undertaken like all good studies, while driving around LA on mescaline.

Huxley wrote that the sober mind has a series of filters on it that basically prevent abstract thought (evolution put them there for the sake of survival, since having daydreams about the nature of the universe while driving can cause you to plow into a semi). But Huxley and Crick thought drugs like mescaline and LSD could temporarily remove those filters.

So rather than melting his mind into a lava lamp of trippy shapes, Crick probably used LSD to get unfiltered access to a part of his brain most normal people rarely use.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.