rollercoasters and UA

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vhu9644

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rollercoasters and UA
« on: February 23, 2011, 06:47:54 PM »
Becuase UA states that if i drop a ball, the earth and i am rising upwards at 9.81 m/s
the ball in reality would be only accelerating up

so if i was on a rolercoaster, the rolercoaster doesnt accelerate down, the track is accelerating up

so if i am on a rolercoaster, and just reached the bottom, and there is another hill, how do i make it up, if the rollercoaster has no acceleration forward?

i do not think you can, becuase the rolercoaster is pulled upwards up a hill by its own acceleration, but UA states that becuase everything is accelerating upwards, a flat earth rollercoaster that uses UA doesnt experience acceleration forward.
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Terra Plana

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Re: rollercoasters and UA
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2011, 07:06:00 PM »
Not sure I understand the problem, a rollercoaster would work the same way on a round earth with gravity or a flat earth accelerating upwards. Are you saying that once the rollercoaster reached the low point in it's track it would just sit there and not have any momentum to push itself up the track?
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vhu9644

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Re: rollercoasters and UA
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2011, 07:10:00 PM »
im pretty sure, becuase a rollercoaster would not have any acceleration, the track would, but not the rollercoaster
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markjo

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Re: rollercoasters and UA
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2011, 07:22:32 PM »
im pretty sure, becuase a rollercoaster would not have any acceleration, the track would, but not the rollercoaster

You may want to brush up on the equivalence principle and frames of reference.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spacetime-iframes/
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Tausami

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Re: rollercoasters and UA
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2011, 07:39:02 PM »
Your argument isn't making any sense.

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vhu9644

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Re: rollercoasters and UA
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2011, 08:36:06 PM »
the roller coaster moves up becuase it is accelerating, but in ua, it doesnt accelerate right?

if we use equivilence, then the track should then accelerate downward to make the non-accelerating rollercoaster go up, but it doesnt according to UA
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 08:53:44 PM by vhu9644 »
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markjo

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Re: rollercoasters and UA
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2011, 09:05:54 PM »
the roller coaster moves up becuase it is accelerating, but in ua, it doesnt accelerate right?

A roller coaster going up hill is speeding up?  ???

if we use equivilence, then the track should then accelerate downward to make the non-accelerating rollercoaster go up, but it doesnt according to UA

The equivalence principle says that gravity and acceleration are indistinguishable. 
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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vhu9644

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Re: rollercoasters and UA
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2011, 09:08:03 PM »
the roller coaster moves up becuase it is accelerating, but in ua, it doesnt accelerate right?

A roller coaster going up hill is speeding up?  ???

if we use equivilence, then the track should then accelerate downward to make the non-accelerating rollercoaster go up, but it doesnt according to UA

The equivalence principle says that gravity and acceleration are indistinguishable. 

my thought is that the rollercoaster can go down fine, and then gravity and acceleration of the earth is indistinguishable

but when the rollercoaster goes up the hill, it uses the momentum to bring itself up the hill, whereas, if the earth was brought up to it, and it doesnt accelerate, it doesnt have momentum
people i respect: Ski, Oracle, PizzaPlanet, Wendy

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markjo

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Re: rollercoasters and UA
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2011, 09:19:49 PM »
but when the rollercoaster goes up the hill, it uses the momentum to bring itself up the hill, whereas, if the earth was brought up to it, and it doesnt accelerate, it doesnt have momentum

Why would it not have momentum?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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vhu9644

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Re: rollercoasters and UA
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2011, 09:20:21 PM »
but when the rollercoaster goes up the hill, it uses the momentum to bring itself up the hill, whereas, if the earth was brought up to it, and it doesnt accelerate, it doesnt have momentum

Why would it not have momentum?

becuase the track is accelerating upwards, and the rollercoaster is staying in place
people i respect: Ski, Oracle, PizzaPlanet, Wendy

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markjo

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Re: rollercoasters and UA
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2011, 09:28:04 PM »
but when the rollercoaster goes up the hill, it uses the momentum to bring itself up the hill, whereas, if the earth was brought up to it, and it doesnt accelerate, it doesnt have momentum

Why would it not have momentum?

becuase the track is accelerating upwards, and the rollercoaster is staying in place

The roller coaster is moving relative to the track in both scenarios.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 09:30:01 PM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

?

vhu9644

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Re: rollercoasters and UA
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2011, 09:36:22 PM »
but when the rollercoaster goes up the hill, it uses the momentum to bring itself up the hill, whereas, if the earth was brought up to it, and it doesnt accelerate, it doesnt have momentum

Why would it not have momentum?

becuase the track is accelerating upwards, and the rollercoaster is staying in place

The roller coaster is moving relative to the track in both scenarios.

in the ua senario, the rollercoaster is moving reletive to the track, but, the track is the one that accelerates, due to it being on the ground, and affected by earth's upward acceleration.

the track moves up at 9.8/s^2 and the rollercoaster is stationary, in ua, and hence, the rollercoaster shouldnt have any forward acceleration that it can divert upwards to bring it over the next hill
people i respect: Ski, Oracle, PizzaPlanet, Wendy

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Thevoiceofreason

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Re: rollercoasters and UA
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2011, 12:46:01 AM »
but when the rollercoaster goes up the hill, it uses the momentum to bring itself up the hill, whereas, if the earth was brought up to it, and it doesnt accelerate, it doesnt have momentum

Why would it not have momentum?

becuase the track is accelerating upwards, and the rollercoaster is staying in place

The roller coaster is moving relative to the track in both scenarios.

in the ua senario, the rollercoaster is moving reletive to the track, but, the track is the one that accelerates, due to it being on the ground, and affected by earth's upward acceleration.

the track moves up at 9.8/s^2 and the rollercoaster is stationary, in ua, and hence, the rollercoaster shouldnt have any forward acceleration that it can divert upwards to bring it over the next hill


Ok I'm going to fully explain why roller coasters work the same.

 For the case of a roller coaster going down hill.

I can simply this to a block so you can easily see the forces at work. wheel's behave a little differently, but we can agree that there general motion in relation to sliding down a hill is the same.

in the case of the block, the track is pushing on the block, with a normal force. This is the force caused by the upwards acceleration of the track, and this force is perpendicular to the track. Its easy to see that if this force is perpendicular to the track, which has an angle of theta, then the resulting force has an angle of 90-theta. We can break the force up into horizontal and vertical components. If the track is parallel to the ground, the force is going up, and indeed we see the coaster accelerating up with the earth, or in other words still with respect to the earth. When the track gets steeper, this vertical component decreases, and so the coaster is no longer accelerating upwards as fast, and is therefore accelerating downwards with respect to the earth. Also, the horizontal component of the force increases, so it moves forward.

When it gets to the first valley, the normal force goes back to being only vertical, and so the coaster is nolonger going up or down (the added speed of the coaster increases this force).

when the coaster is going up hill, the force is now once again not completely vertical, so the coaster is accelerating not quite as fast upwards as the earth, so from the earth's perspective, its decelerating. also the horizontal starts decelerating it from its initial horizontal velocity that it got from the first hill

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vhu9644

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Re: rollercoasters and UA
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2011, 01:01:48 AM »
but when the rollercoaster goes up the hill, it uses the momentum to bring itself up the hill, whereas, if the earth was brought up to it, and it doesnt accelerate, it doesnt have momentum

Why would it not have momentum?

becuase the track is accelerating upwards, and the rollercoaster is staying in place

The roller coaster is moving relative to the track in both scenarios.

in the ua senario, the rollercoaster is moving reletive to the track, but, the track is the one that accelerates, due to it being on the ground, and affected by earth's upward acceleration.

the track moves up at 9.8/s^2 and the rollercoaster is stationary, in ua, and hence, the rollercoaster shouldnt have any forward acceleration that it can divert upwards to bring it over the next hill


Ok I'm going to fully explain why roller coasters work the same.

 For the case of a roller coaster going down hill.

I can simply this to a block so you can easily see the forces at work. wheel's behave a little differently, but we can agree that there general motion in relation to sliding down a hill is the same.

in the case of the block, the track is pushing on the block, with a normal force. This is the force caused by the upwards acceleration of the track, and this force is perpendicular to the track. Its easy to see that if this force is perpendicular to the track, which has an angle of theta, then the resulting force has an angle of 90-theta. We can break the force up into horizontal and vertical components. If the track is parallel to the ground, the force is going up, and indeed we see the coaster accelerating up with the earth, or in other words still with respect to the earth. When the track gets steeper, this vertical component decreases, and so the coaster is no longer accelerating upwards as fast, and is therefore accelerating downwards with respect to the earth. Also, the horizontal component of the force increases, so it moves forward.

When it gets to the first valley, the normal force goes back to being only vertical, and so the coaster is nolonger going up or down (the added speed of the coaster increases this force).

when the coaster is going up hill, the force is now once again not completely vertical, so the coaster is accelerating not quite as fast upwards as the earth, so from the earth's perspective, its decelerating. also the horizontal starts decelerating it from its initial horizontal velocity that it got from the first hill

i understand now, thx
it accelerates with horizontal acceleration instead
people i respect: Ski, Oracle, PizzaPlanet, Wendy

?

Thevoiceofreason

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Re: rollercoasters and UA
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2011, 02:04:46 AM »
but when the rollercoaster goes up the hill, it uses the momentum to bring itself up the hill, whereas, if the earth was brought up to it, and it doesnt accelerate, it doesnt have momentum

Why would it not have momentum?

becuase the track is accelerating upwards, and the rollercoaster is staying in place

The roller coaster is moving relative to the track in both scenarios.

in the ua senario, the rollercoaster is moving reletive to the track, but, the track is the one that accelerates, due to it being on the ground, and affected by earth's upward acceleration.

the track moves up at 9.8/s^2 and the rollercoaster is stationary, in ua, and hence, the rollercoaster shouldnt have any forward acceleration that it can divert upwards to bring it over the next hill


Ok I'm going to fully explain why roller coasters work the same.

 For the case of a roller coaster going down hill.

I can simply this to a block so you can easily see the forces at work. wheel's behave a little differently, but we can agree that there general motion in relation to sliding down a hill is the same.

in the case of the block, the track is pushing on the block, with a normal force. This is the force caused by the upwards acceleration of the track, and this force is perpendicular to the track. Its easy to see that if this force is perpendicular to the track, which has an angle of theta, then the resulting force has an angle of 90-theta. We can break the force up into horizontal and vertical components. If the track is parallel to the ground, the force is going up, and indeed we see the coaster accelerating up with the earth, or in other words still with respect to the earth. When the track gets steeper, this vertical component decreases, and so the coaster is no longer accelerating upwards as fast, and is therefore accelerating downwards with respect to the earth. Also, the horizontal component of the force increases, so it moves forward.

When it gets to the first valley, the normal force goes back to being only vertical, and so the coaster is nolonger going up or down (the added speed of the coaster increases this force).

when the coaster is going up hill, the force is now once again not completely vertical, so the coaster is accelerating not quite as fast upwards as the earth, so from the earth's perspective, its decelerating. also the horizontal starts decelerating it from its initial horizontal velocity that it got from the first hill

i understand now, thx
it accelerates with horizontal acceleration instead

huh? there should be no instead. It all works out because of newton's third law. When you push on something, it pushes on you equally, so it doesn't make a difference if the track pushes on the coaster (FE) or if the coaster pushes on the track (RE). They both wind up pushing on each other, and so when trying to figure out relative acceleration, they must also be the same.

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vhu9644

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  • Round earth supporter
Re: rollercoasters and UA
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2011, 02:12:31 AM »
but when the rollercoaster goes up the hill, it uses the momentum to bring itself up the hill, whereas, if the earth was brought up to it, and it doesnt accelerate, it doesnt have momentum

Why would it not have momentum?

becuase the track is accelerating upwards, and the rollercoaster is staying in place

The roller coaster is moving relative to the track in both scenarios.

in the ua senario, the rollercoaster is moving reletive to the track, but, the track is the one that accelerates, due to it being on the ground, and affected by earth's upward acceleration.

the track moves up at 9.8/s^2 and the rollercoaster is stationary, in ua, and hence, the rollercoaster shouldnt have any forward acceleration that it can divert upwards to bring it over the next hill


Ok I'm going to fully explain why roller coasters work the same.

 For the case of a roller coaster going down hill.

I can simply this to a block so you can easily see the forces at work. wheel's behave a little differently, but we can agree that there general motion in relation to sliding down a hill is the same.

in the case of the block, the track is pushing on the block, with a normal force. This is the force caused by the upwards acceleration of the track, and this force is perpendicular to the track. Its easy to see that if this force is perpendicular to the track, which has an angle of theta, then the resulting force has an angle of 90-theta. We can break the force up into horizontal and vertical components. If the track is parallel to the ground, the force is going up, and indeed we see the coaster accelerating up with the earth, or in other words still with respect to the earth. When the track gets steeper, this vertical component decreases, and so the coaster is no longer accelerating upwards as fast, and is therefore accelerating downwards with respect to the earth. Also, the horizontal component of the force increases, so it moves forward.

When it gets to the first valley, the normal force goes back to being only vertical, and so the coaster is nolonger going up or down (the added speed of the coaster increases this force).

when the coaster is going up hill, the force is now once again not completely vertical, so the coaster is accelerating not quite as fast upwards as the earth, so from the earth's perspective, its decelerating. also the horizontal starts decelerating it from its initial horizontal velocity that it got from the first hill

i understand now, thx
it accelerates with horizontal acceleration instead

huh? there should be no instead. It all works out because of newton's third law. When you push on something, it pushes on you equally, so it doesn't make a difference if the track pushes on the coaster (FE) or if the coaster pushes on the track (RE). They both wind up pushing on each other, and so when trying to figure out relative acceleration, they must also be the same.

yea you are correct, it was amisconception
people i respect: Ski, Oracle, PizzaPlanet, Wendy