Arguments for RET-- Issues with FET's version of Gravity

I have posted some of this in the Q&A section but i actually intended this to be a debate thing sorry

1. the falling feeling
First I would like to address the falling feeling you get when you go on a roller coaster, According to FET when you are at the top of the rollercoaster ride the earth is merely propelling itself towards you and therefore you u "seem" to accelerate downwards. This would mean that your body is actually not accelerating but the earth is just coming towards you. If that is true then why does one feel the funny feeling when falling. This feeling occurs when our body experiences a quick change of motion, aka a external force on our body.

2. constant G force on our body upwards
Second if the earth is truly applying a constant force on your feet then you your body will be strained. A constant force that create enough for 1G of accleration on a body is not little. For example the Ascari A10 car can accelerate the at around the same as 9.8m/s^2, this mean in a race car you would have to floor it completely to obtain this acceleration . I am sure you guys have floored it once or twice in your family cars and felt the g force on your body. Well that force you feel is less than the FET gravity force on you.
Also as defense for RET, argument #2 doesnt not affect the RET as if you were to draw the freebody diagrams of a person in a RET model of earth you can see that the net force is zero due to the normal force. Cuz of this i believe the RET explains better why we do not constantly feel the accelerating force on our body.

I have posted some of this in the Q&A section but i actually intended this to be a debate thing sorry

1. the falling feeling
First I would like to address the falling feeling you get when you go on a roller coaster, According to FET when you are at the top of the rollercoaster ride the earth is merely propelling itself towards you and therefore you u "seem" to accelerate downwards. This would mean that your body is actually not accelerating but the earth is just coming towards you. If that is true then why does one feel the funny feeling when falling. This feeling occurs when our body experiences a quick change of motion, aka a external force on our body.

2. constant G force on our body upwards
Second if the earth is truly applying a constant force on your feet then you your body will be strained. A constant force that create  enough for 1G of accleration on a body is not little. For example the Ascari A10 car can accelerate the at around the same as 9.8m/s^2, this mean in a race car you would have to floor it completely to obtain this acceleration . I am sure you guys have floored it once or twice in your family cars and felt the g force on your body. Well that force you feel is less than the FET gravity force on you.
Also as defense for RET, argument #2 doesnt not affect the RET as if you were to draw the freebody diagrams of a person in a RET model of earth you can see that the net force is zero due to the normal force. Cuz of this i believe the RET explains better why we do not constantly feel the accelerating force on our body.

I'm not sure you totally understand gravity in RET nor UA/Gravity in FET.

Quote from: Kunq on February 18, 2011, 09:52:44 AM

I have posted some of this in the Q&A section but i actually intended this to be a debate thing sorry

1. the falling feeling
First I would like to address the falling feeling you get when you go on a roller coaster, According to FET when you are at the top of the rollercoaster ride the earth is merely propelling itself towards you and therefore you u "seem" to accelerate downwards. This would mean that your body is actually not accelerating but the earth is just coming towards you. If that is true then why does one feel the funny feeling when falling. This feeling occurs when our body experiences a quick change of motion, aka a external force on our body.

2. constant G force on our body upwards
Second if the earth is truly applying a constant force on your feet then you your body will be strained. A constant force that create  enough for 1G of accleration on a body is not little. For example the Ascari A10 car can accelerate the at around the same as 9.8m/s^2, this mean in a race car you would have to floor it completely to obtain this acceleration . I am sure you guys have floored it once or twice in your family cars and felt the g force on your body. Well that force you feel is less than the FET gravity force on you.
Also as defense for RET, argument #2 doesnt not affect the RET as if you were to draw the freebody diagrams of a person in a RET model of earth you can see that the net force is zero due to the normal force. Cuz of this i believe the RET explains better why we do not constantly feel the accelerating force on our body.

I'm not sure you totally understand gravity in RET nor UA/Gravity in FET.

please explain o.0

I have posted some of this in the Q&A section but i actually intended this to be a debate thing sorry

1. the falling feeling
First I would like to address the falling feeling you get when you go on a roller coaster, According to FET when you are at the top of the rollercoaster ride the earth is merely propelling itself towards you and therefore you u "seem" to accelerate downwards. This would mean that your body is actually not accelerating but the earth is just coming towards you. If that is true then why does one feel the funny feeling when falling. This feeling occurs when our body experiences a quick change of motion, aka a external force on our body.

This answer is pretty straightforward. Your body is being pushed by the car along the tracks, is it not? Seems to me your body is experiencing a quick change in motion.

2. constant G force on our body upwards
Second if the earth is truly applying a constant force on your feet then you your body will be strained. A constant force that create enough for 1G of accleration on a body is not little. For example the Ascari A10 car can accelerate the at around the same as 9.8m/s^2, this mean in a race car you would have to floor it completely to obtain this acceleration . I am sure you guys have floored it once or twice in your family cars and felt the g force on your body. Well that force you feel is less than the FET gravity force on you.
Also as defense for RET, argument #2 doesnt not affect the RET as if you were to draw the freebody diagrams of a person in a RET model of earth you can see that the net force is zero due to the normal force. Cuz of this i believe the RET explains better why we do not constantly feel the accelerating force on our body.

Um... the Earth IS constantly applying a force down on you, even with gravity! What you are feeling right now is 1G of acceleration. It just doesn't feel like anything crazy because we have gotten used to it over the years. This is why some people claim aqueous births are better than terrestrial births, so that it isn't such a shock to the baby to feel when they come out of the womb, in which they are weightless.

Also, when you are in a race car, you are experiencing multiple Gs, not just one since you are experiencing the ones caused by the car, plus the one's caused by the Earth.

A simple well-known thought experiment is to imagine yourself in an elevator. Everything appears normal and at rest. Are you

A.) In an elevator in outer space that is constantly accelerating 1g "upward"?

B.) In a stationary elevator on earth?

Or, in a more alarming scenario, let us suppose that you are weightlessly floating about in an elevator. Are you

A.) In a non-accelerating elevator in outer space?

B.) In a freefalling elevator on earth?

The answer to both scenarios is that you cannot tell. This is the equivalence principal in a nutshell elevator. Now think of FET's model as a giant elevator. Not just the ground, but the atmosphere and everything inside of it as well, the entire system (including us) constantly accelerating. Roller coasters and cars should work just fine, unless I'm very much mistaken. At any rate (ho ho), read up on the equivalence principal if you want to know more.

Quote from: Kunq on February 18, 2011, 09:52:44 AM

I have posted some of this in the Q&A section but i actually intended this to be a debate thing sorry

1. the falling feeling
First I would like to address the falling feeling you get when you go on a roller coaster, According to FET when you are at the top of the rollercoaster ride the earth is merely propelling itself towards you and therefore you u "seem" to accelerate downwards. This would mean that your body is actually not accelerating but the earth is just coming towards you. If that is true then why does one feel the funny feeling when falling. This feeling occurs when our body experiences a quick change of motion, aka a external force on our body.

This answer is pretty straightforward. Your body is being pushed by the car along the tracks, is it not? Seems to me your body is experiencing a quick change in motion.

Quote from: Kunq on February 18, 2011, 09:52:44 AM

2. constant G force on our body upwards
Second if the earth is truly applying a constant force on your feet then you your body will be strained. A constant force that create enough for 1G of accleration on a body is not little. For example the Ascari A10 car can accelerate the at around the same as 9.8m/s^2, this mean in a race car you would have to floor it completely to obtain this acceleration . I am sure you guys have floored it once or twice in your family cars and felt the g force on your body. Well that force you feel is less than the FET gravity force on you.
Also as defense for RET, argument #2 doesnt not affect the RET as if you were to draw the freebody diagrams of a person in a RET model of earth you can see that the net force is zero due to the normal force. Cuz of this i believe the RET explains better why we do not constantly feel the accelerating force on our body.

Um... the Earth IS constantly applying a force down on you, even with gravity! What you are feeling right now is 1G of acceleration. It just doesn't feel like anything crazy because we have gotten used to it over the years. This is why some people claim aqueous births are better than terrestrial births, so that it isn't such a shock to the baby to feel when they come out of the womb, in which they are weightless.

Also, when you are in a race car, you are experiencing multiple Gs, not just one since you are experiencing the ones caused by the car, plus the one's caused by the Earth.

1. A whole rollercoaster ride works mostly with the initial height start and the falling part. So its not really the car pushing you more of you fallin with the cart but let move on to a more straight forward example. Falling, for ex: diving. You get the same feeling when you dive into a pool. Or the beginning of a sky dive

2. We are not actually accelerating in the RET since yes it is true that the earth is applying a constant force on you but also the normal force counteracts that force making you feel like you are not being "pushed on". About the race car it was just an comparison as its more common but fine, let say a plane rising at 1G  halfway through its flight. And just FYI the moment the plane leaves the FET earth's s surface the earth no longer exerts a force on it. So the plane is on its own which kinda weird because if you think about it how did the RET people manage to get a plane to lift off and get it to fly at a certain altitude  if they didn't take into account the upwards motion of the FET earth. (Air molecules are not dense enough to translate the force from the earth to the plane as planes do fall when not working FYI)

And also about the child birth in water. The baby feels the G forces in the aqueous womb if the earth is accelerating towards us.   If it didnt and the water did nothing to the boy then how can any one stay afloat in water.  In a pool the water is being pushed at 1G from the earth. For us to stay afloat in the water we must be also pushed by the same G force to remain in the same spot relative to the water.

A simple well-known thought experiment is to imagine yourself in an elevator. Everything appears normal and at rest. Are you

A.) In an elevator in outer space that is constantly accelerating 1g "upward"?

B.) In a stationary elevator on earth?

Or, in a more alarming scenario, let us suppose that you are weightlessly floating about in an elevator. Are you

A.) In a non-accelerating elevator in outer space?

B.) In a freefalling elevator on earth?



The answer to both scenarios is that you cannot tell. This is the equivalence principal in a nutshell elevator. Now think of FET's model as a giant elevator. Not just the ground, but the atmosphere and everything inside of it as well, the entire system (including us) constantly accelerating. Roller coasters and cars should work just fine, unless I'm very much mistaken. At any rate (ho ho), read up on the equivalence principal if you want to know more.

BUt thats the thing you do feel the initial tingly feeling in an elevator when it start to move up. down aka accelerating. and also in an accelerating elevator you cannot do physics demostrations. For example just playing catch.

But Kung, the elevator is in constant acceleration. There is no tingly feeling. Both RET and FET say that you are under constant acceleration. This is a distinct concept from traveling at a certain velocity and then suddenly accelerating to a greater velocity. Once you understand this fundamental concept, everything else concerning cars and roller coasters and playing catch makes sense.

Well, that's not to say that physics can't quickly get very complicated, but this concept in itself isn't too difficult, in my opinion.

1. A whole rollercoaster ride works mostly with the initial height start and the falling part. So its not really the car pushing you more of you fallin with the cart but let move on to a more straight forward example. Falling, for ex: diving. You get the same feeling when you dive into a pool. Or the beginning of a sky dive

You get the feeling from the change of acceleration on your body. You know how your body feels when you are experiencing normal G. When you jump out of a air plane, you no longer are being accelerated by the Earth, so you are weightless. Your body is not used to experiencing near zero G, and that why you have that feeling. I really do not get how you do not get this.

2. We are not actually accelerating in the RET since yes it is true that the earth is applying a constant force on you but also the normal force counteracts that force making you feel like you are not being "pushed on".

Whether or not you feel like you are being pushed on is irrelevant to whether or not you actually are. Just because your velocity downwards is zero because of the normal force of the ground below you doesn't mean you are still not being accelerated down.

About the race car it was just an comparison as its more common but fine, let say a plane rising at 1G  halfway through its flight. And just FYI the moment the plane leaves the FET earth's s surface the earth no longer exerts a force on it.

Yes it does. Gravity does not magically stop working just because you take off. You may be able to overcome the downward acceleration, but that does not mean it is not still there.

So the plane is on its own which kinda weird because if you think about it how did the RET people manage to get a plane to lift off and get it to fly at a certain altitude if they didn't take into account the upwards motion of the FET earth. (Air molecules are not dense enough to translate the force from the earth to the plane as planes do fall when not working FYI)

It is irrelevant if they didn't think it was an upward force since locally Gravity and UA would appear the same. (Equivalence Principle)

And also about the child birth in water. The baby feels the G forces in the aqueous womb if the earth is accelerating towards us.   If it didn't and the water did nothing to the boy then how can any one stay afloat in water.  In a pool the water is being pushed at 1G from the earth. For us to stay afloat in the water we must be also pushed by the same G force to remain in the same spot relative to the water.

Incorrect. The baby is being accelerated yes, but it does not feel the G due to the normal force of the fluids in the womb.

It blows my mind that you do not understand these simple things. You have everything backwards.

Quote from: Kunq on February 18, 2011, 11:34:59 AM

1. A whole rollercoaster ride works mostly with the initial height start and the falling part. So its not really the car pushing you more of you fallin with the cart but let move on to a more straight forward example. Falling, for ex: diving. You get the same feeling when you dive into a pool. Or the beginning of a sky dive

You get the feeling from the change of acceleration on your body. You know how your body feels when you are experiencing normal G. When you jump out of a air plane, you no longer are being accelerated by the Earth, so you are weightless. Your body is not used to experiencing near zero G, and that why you have that feeling. I really do not get how you do not get this.

Quote from: Kunq on February 18, 2011, 11:34:59 AM

2. We are not actually accelerating in the RET since yes it is true that the earth is applying a constant force on you but also the normal force counteracts that force making you feel like you are not being "pushed on".

Whether or not you feel like you are being pushed on is irrelevant to whether or not you actually are. Just because your velocity downwards is zero because of the normal force of the ground below you doesn't mean you are still not being accelerated down.

Quote from: Kunq on February 18, 2011, 11:34:59 AM

About the race car it was just an comparison as its more common but fine, let say a plane rising at 1G  halfway through its flight. And just FYI the moment the plane leaves the FET earth's s surface the earth no longer exerts a force on it.

Yes it does. Gravity does not magically stop working just because you take off. You may be able to overcome the downward acceleration, but that does not mean it is not still there.

Quote from: Kunq on February 18, 2011, 11:34:59 AM

So the plane is on its own which kinda weird because if you think about it how did the RET people manage to get a plane to lift off and get it to fly at a certain altitude if they didn't take into account the upwards motion of the FET earth. (Air molecules are not dense enough to translate the force from the earth to the plane as planes do fall when not working FYI)

It is irrelevant if they didn't think it was an upward force since locally Gravity and UA would appear the same. (Equivalence Principle)

Quote from: Kunq on February 18, 2011, 11:34:59 AM

And also about the child birth in water. The baby feels the G forces in the aqueous womb if the earth is accelerating towards us.   If it didn't and the water did nothing to the boy then how can any one stay afloat in water.  In a pool the water is being pushed at 1G from the earth. For us to stay afloat in the water we must be also pushed by the same G force to remain in the same spot relative to the water.

Incorrect. The baby is being accelerated yes, but it does not feel the G due to the normal force of the fluids in the womb.

It blows my mind that you do not understand these simple things. You have everything backwards.

First of all "It blows my mind that you do not understand these simple things." this is unnecessary and completely irrelevant i am insulted please do not do that as i do not intend to do that to you.
1. As it turns out the weighless falling feeling that I was referring is caused by a change in motion
"http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/mechanics/hump.html" Meaning an external force or a loss in external force, since it considers both I agree this is not really a good point (my bad)
  When you jump out of a plane the
2. But i still stand by how we would feel the 1G from the FET. Whether we feel like we are being pushes or not is completely relevant. The normal force cancels the forces out. It gives a net force of zero, you do not accelerate in the RET model if your velocity is not changing than by you do not have an acceleration. In the FET model you are basically on an elevator except that this elevator always give that feeling in your legs  that makes you seem very heavy.
3. But according to the FET model you are constantly being propelling by the Earth which is an mechanical force which requires constant contact. So if you are in the air then you are no longer in contact with the mechanical force providing earth so therefore all forces you feel are just from the plane (according to FET) The RET gravity is an attraction force like magnets do not require contact
4. Im sorry i do not understand the equivalence principle as i did not study physics that far yet and what is UA (once again please do not insult me it is a mere lack in knowledge just like how you probably do not know the sqaure root of 10219212192.)
5. i still think the baby would feel the g force in the FET model, but now you think that the normal force and counteract the other force. making it feel as though the baby is not feeling an overall net force. This is my exact point in number 2.

If anything offended you i am sorry this is a logic reasoning not a emotional battle.

I've never seen a noob be catered to like this before.

I've never seen a noob be catered to like this before.

Jealous? 

2. But i still stand by how we would feel the 1G from the FET. Whether we feel like we are being pushes or not is completely relevant. The normal force cancels the forces out. It gives a net force of zero, you do not accelerate in the RET model if your velocity is not changing than by you do not have an acceleration. In the FET model you are basically on an elevator except that this elevator always give that feeling in your legs  that makes you seem very heavy.

The normal force cancels out the long force of gravity, but it does not cancel out the acceleration of gravity. I do not know what you are learning in your physics class, but it is certainly possible to be accelerating, and have zero velocity. Your claim that we should always feel like we do in an elevator is flawed, since the force in an elevator is being compounded with the force of G so we feel it. As I have said before, we do not feel 1G, because we are used to it.

3. But according to the FET model you are constantly being propelling by the Earth which is an mechanical force which requires constant contact. So if you are in the air then you are no longer in contact with the mechanical force providing earth so therefore all forces you feel are just from the plane (according to FET) The RET gravity is an attraction force like magnets do not require contact

That is correct, if you are in the air, you are no longer in direct contact with the Earth. But consider the planes' distance in the relation to the Earth's. It should remain relatively constant during a flight. The Earth is moving upwards at G though, so what does this mean? In order to keep the distance the same, the plane must also move upwards at G. The plane is about to do this through the way that planes normally fly. Lift.

4. Im sorry i do not understand the equivalence principle as i did not study physics that far yet and what is UA (once again please do not insult me it is a mere lack in knowledge just like how you probably do not know the sqaure root of 10219212192.)

The square root of 10,219,212,192 is 101,090.119

Protip: If you do not understand or know something, lurk. You have the internet at your disposal. Use it.

5. i still think the baby would feel the g force in the FET model, but now you think that the normal force and counteract the other force. making it feel as though the baby is not feeling an overall net force. This is my exact point in number 2.

The baby would not feel g force in either model because the normal force of the fluid the baby is suspended in counteracts it. The baby is being accelerated, yes, but not feel any or very little force.

I've never seen a noob be catered to like this before.

I suspect boredom plays a major role, and the deep-rooted compulsion to educate others. But mostly the boredom thing.

I am jealous. Perhaps I shall start making inept arguments and gain this kind of attention once again 

Or maybe I am just nice! 

I think your confusion stems from the fact that you've never felt true free fall. You'd have to take one of those parabolic flights or whatever they're called. What you feel on a roller coaster can be more than 1 g due to twisting and turning. On a drop-zone, you're not falling at g.

But Kung, the elevator is in constant acceleration. There is no tingly feeling. Both RET and FET say that you are under constant acceleration. This is a distinct concept from traveling at a certain velocity and then suddenly accelerating to a greater velocity. Once you understand this fundamental concept, everything else concerning cars and roller coasters and playing catch makes sense.

Well, that's not to say that physics can't quickly get very complicated, but this concept in itself isn't too difficult, in my opinion.

we are not in constant acceleration in an elevator as it slows down and speeds up ( not in that order)

I think your confusion stems from the fact that you've never felt true free fall. You'd have to take one of those parabolic flights or whatever they're called. What you feel on a roller coaster can be more than 1 g due to twisting and turning. On a drop-zone, you're not falling at g.

ok then maybe it is not called free falling, idk what it is called. But free falling suggests that your at terminal velocity. I mean to say the "accelerating feeling"

Quote from: Hessy on February 18, 2011, 01:19:08 PM

I've never seen a noob be catered to like this before.

Jealous? 

Quote from: Kunq on February 18, 2011, 01:17:14 PM

2. But i still stand by how we would feel the 1G from the FET. Whether we feel like we are being pushes or not is completely relevant. The normal force cancels the forces out. It gives a net force of zero, you do not accelerate in the RET model if your velocity is not changing than by you do not have an acceleration. In the FET model you are basically on an elevator except that this elevator always give that feeling in your legs  that makes you seem very heavy.

The normal force cancels out the long force of gravity, but it does not cancel out the acceleration of gravity. I do not know what you are learning in your physics class, but it is certainly possible to be accelerating, and have zero velocity. Your claim that we should always feel like we do in an elevator is flawed, since the force in an elevator is being compounded with the force of G so we feel it. As I have said before, we do not feel 1G, because we are used to it.

Quote from: Kunq on February 18, 2011, 01:17:14 PM

3. But according to the FET model you are constantly being propelling by the Earth which is an mechanical force which requires constant contact. So if you are in the air then you are no longer in contact with the mechanical force providing earth so therefore all forces you feel are just from the plane (according to FET) The RET gravity is an attraction force like magnets do not require contact

That is correct, if you are in the air, you are no longer in direct contact with the Earth. But consider the planes' distance in the relation to the Earth's. It should remain relatively constant during a flight. The Earth is moving upwards at G though, so what does this mean? In order to keep the distance the same, the plane must also move upwards at G. The plane is about to do this through the way that planes normally fly. Lift.

Quote from: Kunq on February 18, 2011, 01:17:14 PM

4. Im sorry i do not understand the equivalence principle as i did not study physics that far yet and what is UA (once again please do not insult me it is a mere lack in knowledge just like how you probably do not know the sqaure root of 10219212192.)

The square root of 10,219,212,192 is 101,090.119

Protip: If you do not understand or know something, lurk. You have the internet at your disposal. Use it.

Quote from: Kunq on February 18, 2011, 01:17:14 PM

5. i still think the baby would feel the g force in the FET model, but now you think that the normal force and counteract the other force. making it feel as though the baby is not feeling an overall net force. This is my exact point in number 2.

The baby would not feel g force in either model because the normal force of the fluid the baby is suspended in counteracts it. The baby is being accelerated, yes, but not feel any or very little force.

response to #2
um can you cite the part with prolonged zero velocity and non zero constant acceleration please as i cannot find it. When i say elevator i mean just the concept of it. Like the stress on your legs i just wanted to give that analogy. Like im arguing you should feel that if FET is true.

response#3
Ok i just wanted to state the acceleration feeling,  have you been on a horizontal roller coaster (ex: The Italian job at Canada's wonderland) that accelerates incredibly fast on flat ground in the beginning and then proceeding with that velocity to the loops etc. The incredible beginning acceleration gives the the same sensation as me diving aka falling. Comparing these two it is safe to say that it is acceleration that is felt when you are falling. I feel the same feeling as in the car as when I fall. How does this happen if the earth is just merely coming towards me in the falling. 
Also weightlessness is not the same feeling. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-do-people-feel-in-a

response#4
Im sorry but i meant without a calculator I know u meant it for me to use a "calculator" aka the web but i just trying to defend my knowledge of physics that i have and merely saying that i did not take the time to get the calculator, aka the web or aka learn in school as some ppl did.

K so i googled it and basically the equivalence principle is just saying a feather drops as fast as a brick in an vacuum environment? o.0 is that it or did i get a different principle?

response#5
Ok I agree. 
Then it is agreed then, the baby does not feel G force in either the FET or the RET model. making delivering babies in aqueous environment not a point against or for RET or FET as the baby does not differ in both FET or RET.

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on February 18, 2011, 02:05:55 PM

Quote from: Kunq on February 18, 2011, 01:17:14 PM

2. But i still stand by how we would feel the 1G from the FET. Whether we feel like we are being pushes or not is completely relevant. The normal force cancels the forces out. It gives a net force of zero, you do not accelerate in the RET model if your velocity is not changing than by you do not have an acceleration. In the FET model you are basically on an elevator except that this elevator always give that feeling in your legs  that makes you seem very heavy.

The normal force cancels out the long force of gravity, but it does not cancel out the acceleration of gravity. I do not know what you are learning in your physics class, but it is certainly possible to be accelerating, and have zero velocity. Your claim that we should always feel like we do in an elevator is flawed, since the force in an elevator is being compounded with the force of G so we feel it. As I have said before, we do not feel 1G, because we are used to it.

response to #2
um can you cite the part with prolonged zero velocity and non zero constant acceleration please as i cannot find it. When i say elevator i mean just the concept of it. Like the stress on your legs i just wanted to give that analogy. Like im arguing you should feel that if FET is true.

A simple example of a situation with zero velocity and non-zero acceleration is when you throw a ball and it is at the top of its arc.

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on February 18, 2011, 02:05:55 PM

Quote from: Kunq on February 18, 2011, 01:17:14 PM

3. But according to the FET model you are constantly being propelling by the Earth which is an mechanical force which requires constant contact. So if you are in the air then you are no longer in contact with the mechanical force providing earth so therefore all forces you feel are just from the plane (according to FET) The RET gravity is an attraction force like magnets do not require contact

That is correct, if you are in the air, you are no longer in direct contact with the Earth. But consider the planes' distance in the relation to the Earth's. It should remain relatively constant during a flight. The Earth is moving upwards at G though, so what does this mean? In order to keep the distance the same, the plane must also move upwards at G. The plane is about to do this through the way that planes normally fly. Lift.

response#3
Ok i just wanted to state the acceleration feeling,  have you been on a horizontal roller coaster (ex: The Italian job at Canada's wonderland) that accelerates incredibly fast on flat ground in the beginning and then proceeding with that velocity to the loops etc. The incredible beginning acceleration gives the the same sensation as me diving aka falling. Comparing these two it is safe to say that it is acceleration that is felt when you are falling. I feel the same feeling as in the car as when I fall. How does this happen if the earth is just merely coming towards me in the falling. 
Also weightlessness is not the same feeling. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-do-people-feel-in-a

Your roller coaster examples fails on the same grounds as your elevator example. Any G forces from the roller coaster are being compounded with the G forces you already feel from gravity or UA. So no, it is also not a good analogy to the feeling when you are falling.

You get a feeling when you are skydiving due to the differences of G on your body. If your body normally is experiencing G on the ground, then when your body is in free falling and not experiencing G, it is going to feel different. That and the tons of air slamming into you.

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on February 18, 2011, 02:05:55 PM

Quote from: Kunq on February 18, 2011, 01:17:14 PM

4. Im sorry i do not understand the equivalence principle as i did not study physics that far yet and what is UA (once again please do not insult me it is a mere lack in knowledge just like how you probably do not know the sqaure root of 10219212192.)

The square root of 10,219,212,192 is 101,090.119

Protip: If you do not understand or know something, lurk. You have the internet at your disposal. Use it.

response#4
Im sorry but i meant without a calculator I know u meant it for me to use a "calculator" aka the web but i just trying to defend my knowledge of physics that i have and merely saying that i did not take the time to get the calculator, aka the web or aka learn in school as some ppl did.

K so i googled it and basically the equivalence principle is just saying a feather drops as fast as a brick in an vacuum environment? o.0 is that it or did i get a different principle?

Then it is your own fault that you are not taking the time you look up terms. If you are not willing to look up physics terms or attempt to get a basic understanding of what they mean, do not try to start a debate concerning physics.

I do not know if you are being intentionally ignorant, but the first term that comes up when you Google, "Equivalence Principle" gives the definition:

"The gravitational "force" as experienced locally while standing on a massive body (such as the Earth) is actually the same as the pseudo-force experienced by an observer in a non-inertial (accelerated) frame of reference."

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on February 18, 2011, 02:05:55 PM

Quote from: Kunq on February 18, 2011, 01:17:14 PM

5. i still think the baby would feel the g force in the FET model, but now you think that the normal force and counteract the other force. making it feel as though the baby is not feeling an overall net force. This is my exact point in number 2.

The baby would not feel g force in either model because the normal force of the fluid the baby is suspended in counteracts it. The baby is being accelerated, yes, but not feel any or very little force.

response#5
Ok I agree. 
Then it is agreed then, the baby does not feel G force in either the FET or the RET model. making delivering babies in aqueous environment not a point against or for RET or FET as the baby does not differ in both FET or RET.

When did I suggest it did? I was pointing out that the fact that the reason why people do aqueous births is to try and prevent the baby from feeling G forces during birth. It would be a shock to them because they haven't grown used to it like the rest of us.

Quote from: Kunq on February 22, 2011, 08:44:00 AM

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on February 18, 2011, 02:05:55 PM

Quote from: Kunq on February 18, 2011, 01:17:14 PM

2. But i still stand by how we would feel the 1G from the FET. Whether we feel like we are being pushes or not is completely relevant. The normal force cancels the forces out. It gives a net force of zero, you do not accelerate in the RET model if your velocity is not changing than by you do not have an acceleration. In the FET model you are basically on an elevator except that this elevator always give that feeling in your legs  that makes you seem very heavy.

The normal force cancels out the long force of gravity, but it does not cancel out the acceleration of gravity. I do not know what you are learning in your physics class, but it is certainly possible to be accelerating, and have zero velocity. Your claim that we should always feel like we do in an elevator is flawed, since the force in an elevator is being compounded with the force of G so we feel it. As I have said before, we do not feel 1G, because we are used to it.

response to #2
um can you cite the part with prolonged zero velocity and non zero constant acceleration please as i cannot find it. When i say elevator i mean just the concept of it. Like the stress on your legs i just wanted to give that analogy. Like im arguing you should feel that if FET is true.

A simple example of a situation with zero velocity and non-zero acceleration is when you throw a ball and it is at the top of its arc.

Quote from: Kunq on February 22, 2011, 08:44:00 AM

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on February 18, 2011, 02:05:55 PM

Quote from: Kunq on February 18, 2011, 01:17:14 PM

3. But according to the FET model you are constantly being propelling by the Earth which is an mechanical force which requires constant contact. So if you are in the air then you are no longer in contact with the mechanical force providing earth so therefore all forces you feel are just from the plane (according to FET) The RET gravity is an attraction force like magnets do not require contact

That is correct, if you are in the air, you are no longer in direct contact with the Earth. But consider the planes' distance in the relation to the Earth's. It should remain relatively constant during a flight. The Earth is moving upwards at G though, so what does this mean? In order to keep the distance the same, the plane must also move upwards at G. The plane is about to do this through the way that planes normally fly. Lift.

response#3
Ok i just wanted to state the acceleration feeling,  have you been on a horizontal roller coaster (ex: The Italian job at Canada's wonderland) that accelerates incredibly fast on flat ground in the beginning and then proceeding with that velocity to the loops etc. The incredible beginning acceleration gives the the same sensation as me diving aka falling. Comparing these two it is safe to say that it is acceleration that is felt when you are falling. I feel the same feeling as in the car as when I fall. How does this happen if the earth is just merely coming towards me in the falling. 
Also weightlessness is not the same feeling. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-do-people-feel-in-a

Your roller coaster examples fails on the same grounds as your elevator example. Any G forces from the roller coaster are being compounded with the G forces you already feel from gravity or UA. So no, it is also not a good analogy to the feeling when you are falling.

You get a feeling when you are skydiving due to the differences of G on your body. If your body normally is experiencing G on the ground, then when your body is in free falling and not experiencing G, it is going to feel different. That and the tons of air slamming into you.

Quote from: Kunq on February 22, 2011, 08:44:00 AM

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on February 18, 2011, 02:05:55 PM

Quote from: Kunq on February 18, 2011, 01:17:14 PM

4. Im sorry i do not understand the equivalence principle as i did not study physics that far yet and what is UA (once again please do not insult me it is a mere lack in knowledge just like how you probably do not know the sqaure root of 10219212192.)

The square root of 10,219,212,192 is 101,090.119

Protip: If you do not understand or know something, lurk. You have the internet at your disposal. Use it.

response#4
Im sorry but i meant without a calculator I know u meant it for me to use a "calculator" aka the web but i just trying to defend my knowledge of physics that i have and merely saying that i did not take the time to get the calculator, aka the web or aka learn in school as some ppl did.

K so i googled it and basically the equivalence principle is just saying a feather drops as fast as a brick in an vacuum environment? o.0 is that it or did i get a different principle?

Then it is your own fault that you are not taking the time you look up terms. If you are not willing to look up physics terms or attempt to get a basic understanding of what they mean, do not try to start a debate concerning physics.

I do not know if you are being intentionally ignorant, but the first term that comes up when you Google, "Equivalence Principle" gives the definition:

"The gravitational "force" as experienced locally while standing on a massive body (such as the Earth) is actually the same as the pseudo-force experienced by an observer in a non-inertial (accelerated) frame of reference."

Quote from: Kunq on February 22, 2011, 08:44:00 AM

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on February 18, 2011, 02:05:55 PM

Quote from: Kunq on February 18, 2011, 01:17:14 PM

5. i still think the baby would feel the g force in the FET model, but now you think that the normal force and counteract the other force. making it feel as though the baby is not feeling an overall net force. This is my exact point in number 2.

The baby would not feel g force in either model because the normal force of the fluid the baby is suspended in counteracts it. The baby is being accelerated, yes, but not feel any or very little force.

response#5
Ok I agree. 
Then it is agreed then, the baby does not feel G force in either the FET or the RET model. making delivering babies in aqueous environment not a point against or for RET or FET as the baby does not differ in both FET or RET.

When did I suggest it did? I was pointing out that the fact that the reason why people do aqueous births is to try and prevent the baby from feeling G forces during birth. It would be a shock to them because they haven't grown used to it like the rest of us.

2.ye but just for that ONE moment, This is different from prolong zero velocity with prolonged non zero acceleration.
3.No it doesn't fail because i just wanted to explain what acceleration feels like. It is still acceleration even if there is and extra G on it.
 Yes i agree it will feel different but not the weightless feeling. In the FET model with the G force removed it should feel like your in space  or on the top of a huge parabolic motion which does not feel like acceleration. Weightlessness is not the feeling i am talking about. I am talking about the two different scenarios of the Italian job roller coaster ride and falling and how they are the same feeling which can only be obtained by acceleration. As said at this site:   http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-do-people-feel-in-a
4. No i am not begin ignorant, as most people, i like to find an simpler explanation rather than teach myself this whole area of physics until i reach this principle. So i scrolled down and it said what i posted b4. Ok i have looked at more links on this subject. I think i understand what it is. So it is basically saying that we will never know whether or not we are in a ever accelerating rocket or a gravitational field. Am I correct?
If i am correct i am still kind of confused on how i cannot just throw a ball up and catch it in the same spot relative to me in a accelerating car but according to this principle i can play catch on a accelerating elevator. both are accelerating but only at different angles
5.K i admit i was kinda tired when i posted the last reply i thought you had agreed to something my last post about the baby was incorrect sorry.  But now that i think i have understood the equivalence principle i think according to the equivalence principle the baby couldn't tell the difference if it was a FE gforce or  RE gforce. so it doesnt really support either of the arguments. Yes the baby might feel a force but it cannot differentiate between them.

2.ye but just for that ONE moment, This is different from prolong zero velocity with prolonged non zero acceleration.

When did I say otherwise?

3.No it doesn't fail because i just wanted to explain what acceleration feels like. It is still acceleration even if there is and extra G on it.
 Yes i agree it will feel different but not the weightless feeling. In the FET model with the G force removed it should feel like your in space  or on the top of a huge parabolic motion which does not feel like acceleration. Weightlessness is not the feeling i am talking about. I am talking about the two different scenarios of the Italian job roller coaster ride and falling and how they are the same feeling which can only be obtained by acceleration. As said at this site:   http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-do-people-feel-in-a

It fails because you do not recognize that what you feel on a roller coaster is not what merely accelerating feels like. What you feel on a roller coaster is what adding extra acceleration to the amount you are already accelerating at feels like.

When you are skydiving you are NOT weightless. You are still accelerating because there is a giant column of are pressing against you. Read your own article. What they are describing is when you net acceleration is zero. When skydiving, your net acceleration is not zero.

4. No i am not begin ignorant, as most people, i like to find an simpler explanation rather than teach myself this whole area of physics until i reach this principle. So i scrolled down and it said what i posted b4. Ok i have looked at more links on this subject. I think i understand what it is. So it is basically saying that we will never know whether or not we are in a ever accelerating rocket or a gravitational field. Am I correct?
If i am correct i am still kind of confused on how i cannot just throw a ball up and catch it in the same spot relative to me in a accelerating car but according to this principle i can play catch on a accelerating elevator. both are accelerating but only at different angles

The equivalence principle states that there is no difference between the affects of a gravitational pull, and an acceleration in the opposite difference. Locally they would behave exactly the same.

You can't do that in an accelerating car because you are mixing up your planes. If the car is accelerating in a horizontal direction, then the ball in going move horizontally. Why would you think it would come back down in the spot you threw it in? You can catch a ball when you are accelerating vertically because the ball is still moving along the axis you threw it in.

The only way you could have the ball return to you in the car is if you threw the ball at the correct angle upward to compensate for the forward acceleration and for G.

In an elevator all you have to worry about it vertical acceleration, so as long as you throw it upwards, it will come back down to you.

5.K i admit i was kinda tired when i posted the last reply i thought you had agreed to something my last post about the baby was incorrect sorry.  But now that i think i have understood the equivalence principle i think according to the equivalence principle the baby couldn't tell the difference if it was a FE gforce or  RE gforce. so it doesnt really support either of the arguments. Yes the baby might feel a force but it cannot differentiate between them.

Ya, while it was in the fluid. And once again, I never stated it supported either RET, or FET. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I stated it is evidence there is a difference between acceleration and feeling G forces.

These are basic questions, not debate-worth material. Moved to Q&A.


I suggest that the OP read the pinned thread on gravity.