Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?

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Trekky0623

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2011, 02:14:28 PM »
I think this is a really thin argument. You could say that you have free will, but god still knows what choice you are going to make. I don't see how that would take away from your free will. He isn't interfering with your decision.

It's not about God interfering with your decision, it's about your decision being pre destined that robs you of your freedom.  It basically makes you a puppet of fate from which you cannot escape.

What do you mean pre-destined? You're going to complete a set of actions in your lifetime whether or not someone knows what those actions are. God knowing what you are going to do has no effect on your free-will as long as he doesn't make you do something different.

If it truly was a choice, it wouldn't be predictable. Because God knows what you will do, it will never happen any other way. So is that really choice?

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2011, 02:20:51 PM »
I think this is a really thin argument. You could say that you have free will, but god still knows what choice you are going to make. I don't see how that would take away from your free will. He isn't interfering with your decision.

It's not about God interfering with your decision, it's about your decision being pre destined that robs you of your freedom.  It basically makes you a puppet of fate from which you cannot escape.

What do you mean pre-destined? You're going to complete a set of actions in your lifetime whether or not someone knows what those actions are. God knowing what you are going to do has no effect on your free-will as long as he doesn't make you do something different.

Lets say on day x God knows that when I have to make the choice between eating Cheerios and eating Cornflakes, I choose to eat cornflakes.

When that day comes along, I have to eat the cornflakes. If I don't, that means that God is not omniscient, becuase he did not know what I was going to do.

I did not have free-will in the matter because I had to eat the cornflakes, it could not have happened any other way.

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Ocius

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2011, 02:21:52 PM »
I think this is a really thin argument. You could say that you have free will, but god still knows what choice you are going to make. I don't see how that would take away from your free will. He isn't interfering with your decision.

It's not about God interfering with your decision, it's about your decision being pre destined that robs you of your freedom.  It basically makes you a puppet of fate from which you cannot escape.

What do you mean pre-destined? You're going to complete a set of actions in your lifetime whether or not someone knows what those actions are. God knowing what you are going to do has no effect on your free-will as long as he doesn't make you do something different.

If it truly was a choice, it wouldn't be predictable. Because God knows what you will do, it will never happen any other way. So is that really choice?

Why wouldn't it be a choice? God isn't making the choice for you.

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fluffycornsnake

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2011, 02:28:54 PM »
Does the man remain in the room freely?  Locke says no, because it is only a matter of convenience that the man's preference was the choice that was available to him.

The man had the choice to either stay in the room or attempt to leave. He exercised his free will to stay. No problem. Had he tried to leave, only then would his free will have been jeopardised.

No, you didn't. It was a yes or no question. You only attempted to render the question moot.

The question was moot so I gave the only answer I could. Likewise, this...

Lets say on day x God knows that when I have to make the choice between eating Cheerios and eating Cornflakes, I choose to eat cornflakes.

When that day comes along, I have to eat the cornflakes. If I don't, that means that God is not omniscient, becuase he did not know what I was going to do.

I did not have free-will in the matter because I had to eat the cornflakes, it could not have happened any other way.

Let's say you put the cart before the horse and call it an argument. Will you convince anyone?

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2011, 02:33:46 PM »
I'm noticing that my points are going unanswered...

The man had the choice to either stay in the room or attempt to leave. He exercised his free will to stay. No problem. Had he tried to leave, only then would his free will have been jeopardised.
The thought experiment is highlighting capability of choice which is why the decision isn't between 'staying or trying to leave'. It is a decision to stay or leave. If leaving is impossible it is not really a choice.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2011, 02:34:15 PM »
Let's say you put the cart before the horse and call it an argument. Will you convince anyone?

That does not answer my assertion at all. Tell me where the reasoning in invalid or which premise is false. Otherwise, admit that you are wrong.

I'm noticing that my points are going unanswered...

It seems to me with this post that fluffycornsnake is being intentional unreasonable, and thus should probably just be ignored.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 02:36:03 PM by EnglshGentleman »

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Ocius

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2011, 02:36:27 PM »
Let's say you put the cart before the horse and call it an argument. Will you convince anyone?

That does not answer my assertion at all. Tell me where the reasoning in invalid or which premise is false. Otherwise, admit that you are wrong.

You're the one who's wrong. You have the ability to choose whichever cereal you want, god merely knows which one you are going to choose. He isn't interfering with your free will.

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Beorn

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2011, 02:37:39 PM »
Let's say you put the cart before the horse and call it an argument. Will you convince anyone?

That does not answer my assertion at all. Tell me where the reasoning in invalid or which premise is false. Otherwise, admit that you are wrong.

You're the one who's wrong. You have the ability to choose whichever cereal you want, god merely knows which one you are going to choose. He isn't interfering with your free will.

He knows it before you do it? How do you have a free choice then?
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2011, 02:38:38 PM »
You have the ability to choose whichever cereal you want, god merely knows which one you are going to choose. He isn't interfering with your free will.

God is not playing an influential role. It is the fact that he can know something with certainty that has implications.
An inability to do something else is a lack of freewill. Doing something else would make god's knowledge incorrect.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Ocius

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2011, 02:45:45 PM »
What are these implications you're talking about?

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2011, 02:46:02 PM »
Let's say you put the cart before the horse and call it an argument. Will you convince anyone?

That does not answer my assertion at all. Tell me where the reasoning in invalid or which premise is false. Otherwise, admit that you are wrong.

You're the one who's wrong. You have the ability to choose whichever cereal you want, god merely knows which one you are going to choose. He isn't interfering with your free will.

Please read.

Lets say on day x God knows that when I have to make the choice between eating Cheerios and eating Cornflakes, I choose to eat cornflakes.

When that day comes along, I have to eat the cornflakes. If I don't, that means that God is not omniscient, becuase he did not know what I was going to do.

I did not have free-will in the matter because I had to eat the cornflakes, it could not have happened any other way.

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Hazbollah

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2011, 02:48:22 PM »
You have the ability to choose whichever cereal you want, god merely knows which one you are going to choose. He isn't interfering with your free will.

God is not playing an influential role. It is the fact that he can know something with certainty that has implications.
An inability to do something else is a lack of freewill. Doing something else would make god's knowledge incorrect.
You freely choose to eat Cheerios. God knows that you will make that choice because, God having no strict timeline, has seen you eat those Cheerio's. Free will remains intact. Simples.
Always check your tackle- Caerphilly school of Health. If I see an innuendo in my post, I'll be sure to whip it out.

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Beorn

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2011, 02:48:53 PM »
Where does this "God has no timeline" come from anyway?
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Ocius

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2011, 02:50:17 PM »
I think you'd make a much better argument with the problem of evil. This one really just falls flat.

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Hazbollah

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2011, 02:50:30 PM »
Where does this "God has no timeline" come from anyway?
He's God. He can do WTF He wants.
Always check your tackle- Caerphilly school of Health. If I see an innuendo in my post, I'll be sure to whip it out.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2011, 02:53:27 PM »
Please read.

Lets say on day x God knows that when I have to make the choice between eating Cheerios and eating Cornflakes, I choose to eat cornflakes.

When that day comes along, I have to eat the cornflakes. If I don't, that means that God is not omniscient, becuase he did not know what I was going to do.

I did not have free-will in the matter because I had to eat the cornflakes, it could not have happened any other way.

No1 has addressed this yet, I am assuming because they can't.

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Ocius

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2011, 02:56:24 PM »
Posting your argument over and over isn't going to make it more valid. Anyway, it seems like we both agree on this.

Something knowing what your actions will be does not mean that they are controlling your actions.

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Hazbollah

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2011, 02:56:58 PM »
Please read.

Lets say on day x God knows that when I have to make the choice between eating Cheerios and eating Cornflakes, I choose to eat cornflakes.

When that day comes along, I have to eat the cornflakes. If I don't, that means that God is not omniscient, becuase he did not know what I was going to do.

I did not have free-will in the matter because I had to eat the cornflakes, it could not have happened any other way.

No1 has addressed this yet, I am assuming because they can't.
With God, you may have already eaten the cornflakes.
Always check your tackle- Caerphilly school of Health. If I see an innuendo in my post, I'll be sure to whip it out.

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fluffycornsnake

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2011, 02:58:26 PM »
I'm noticing that my points are going unanswered...

I had nothing new to contribute to your other points, but if it makes you feel neglected...

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Most of these posts seem to be placing temporal limitations on God. 'Past' and 'future' are human terms. From God's perspective, all moments are the Present. God knows what you will eat for breakfast 'tomorrow', because 'tomorrow' is as real as 'today'. In a manner of speaking, God can already see you eating your breakfast tomorrow. God can see you eating breakfast 30 years from now and everything between.
You are discussing the way god might come to gain his knowledge, not what conditions must be met for such knowledge to be possible.

Yes. Are you asking me to provide reasons why God is omniscient?

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Locke's argument is also irrelevant. God cannot actively limit us just by 'knowing stuff'. God merely sees all temporal actions in eternity. How can this possibly have an effect on the actions themselves?
God is not playing an influential role. It is the fact that he can know something with certainty that has implications.

But these implications are nothing more than semantic, as I have tried to say.

The man had the choice to either stay in the room or attempt to leave. He exercised his free will to stay. No problem. Had he tried to leave, only then would his free will have been jeopardised.
The thought experiment is highlighting capability of choice which is why the decision isn't between 'staying or trying to leave'. It is a decision to stay or leave. If leaving is impossible it is not really a choice.

It is a choice, because he chooses to stay! I cannot make this any clearer.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2011, 03:00:22 PM »
What are these implications you're talking about?
If something can be known with certainty, that certainty is an inevitable truth. To be sure of something is to acknowledge that nothing else can happen instead. If something else couldn't happen, god couldn't be sure.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2011, 03:03:02 PM »
Posting your argument over and over isn't going to make it more valid.

When did I suggest this? Ignoring arguments however, makes your side look even less valid.

Please read.

Lets say on day x God knows that when I have to make the choice between eating Cheerios and eating Cornflakes, I choose to eat cornflakes.

When that day comes along, I have to eat the cornflakes. If I don't, that means that God is not omniscient, becuase he did not know what I was going to do.

I did not have free-will in the matter because I had to eat the cornflakes, it could not have happened any other way.

No1 has addressed this yet, I am assuming because they can't.
With God, you may have already eaten the cornflakes.

Obviously. He is omniscient. But because he perceives that I ate the cornflakes, that means that I could not have eaten anything else. God perceived me eating them before I even thought about them, which means that it was already known I would eat them before I did.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 03:04:36 PM by EnglshGentleman »

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2011, 03:04:05 PM »
You freely choose to eat Cheerios. God knows that you will make that choice because, God having no strict timeline, has seen you eat those Cheerio's. Free will remains intact. Simples.
Didn't you concede to an altered definition of freewill already? The admission of seeing our fate because he is not constrained in time, is still an admission of fate.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Ocius

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2011, 03:04:58 PM »
What are these implications you're talking about?
If something can be known with certainty, that certainty is an inevitable truth. To be sure of something is to acknowledge that nothing else can happen instead. If something else couldn't happen, god couldn't be sure.

An omnipotent god would know with complete certainty what you are going to do in your life. This knowledge isn't in any way go to affect your actions.

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Beorn

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2011, 03:05:42 PM »
What are these implications you're talking about?
If something can be known with certainty, that certainty is an inevitable truth. To be sure of something is to acknowledge that nothing else can happen instead. If something else couldn't happen, god couldn't be sure.

An omnipotent god would know with complete certainty what you are going to do in your life. This knowledge isn't in any way go to affect your actions.

So it's known before you do it?
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2011, 03:09:41 PM »
You are discussing the way god might come to gain his knowledge, not what conditions must be met for such knowledge to be possible.
Yes. Are you asking me to provide reasons why God is omniscient?
No, I am asking for acknowledgment that to hold knowledge of a certain future, a certain future must exist.

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Locke's argument is also irrelevant. God cannot actively limit us just by 'knowing stuff'. God merely sees all temporal actions in eternity. How can this possibly have an effect on the actions themselves?
God is not playing an influential role. It is the fact that he can know something with certainty that has implications.
But these implications are nothing more than semantic, as I have tried to say.
I think you misunderstood the implications I was referring to, which is probably my fault for not attaching them again to that post. I just outlined them above.

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The man had the choice to either stay in the room or attempt to leave. He exercised his free will to stay. No problem. Had he tried to leave, only then would his free will have been jeopardised.
The thought experiment is highlighting capability of choice which is why the decision isn't between 'staying or trying to leave'. It is a decision to stay or leave. If leaving is impossible it is not really a choice.

It is a choice, because he chooses to stay! I cannot make this any clearer.

So you contend that it is a choice to not violate the laws of physics?  ???
You consider it a choice to not grow wings and fly?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 03:18:01 PM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2011, 03:10:42 PM »
What are these implications you're talking about?
If something can be known with certainty, that certainty is an inevitable truth. To be sure of something is to acknowledge that nothing else can happen instead. If something else couldn't happen, god couldn't be sure.

An omnipotent god would know with complete certainty what you are going to do in your life. This knowledge isn't in any way go to affect your actions.

Stating your premise over and over doesn't make your conclusion anymore valid.

If he knows with complete certainty what you will do, than that means you can not choose to do anything but what he says you will, which means that you have no free will.

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fluffycornsnake

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2011, 03:12:53 PM »
Lets say on day x God knows that when I have to make the choice between eating Cheerios and eating Cornflakes, I choose to eat cornflakes.

When that day comes along, I have to eat the cornflakes. If I don't, that means that God is not omniscient, becuase he did not know what I was going to do.

I did not have free-will in the matter because I had to eat the cornflakes, it could not have happened any other way.

God knows you will choose cornflakes because your future self has chosen cornflakes. You are basing the choice on his knowledge, but in fact his knowledge is based on the choice. Cart, horse; horse, cart.

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Ocius

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2011, 03:13:53 PM »
What are these implications you're talking about?
If something can be known with certainty, that certainty is an inevitable truth. To be sure of something is to acknowledge that nothing else can happen instead. If something else couldn't happen, god couldn't be sure.

An omnipotent god would know with complete certainty what you are going to do in your life. This knowledge isn't in any way go to affect your actions.

Stating your premise over and over doesn't make your conclusion anymore valid.

If he knows with complete certainty what you will do, than that means you can not choose to do anything but what he says you will, which means that you have no free will.

He isn't telling you to do anything, he's merely observing your actions. If he told you what to do in the first place, you wouldn't have free will whether he knew what you were going to do or not.

but in fact his knowledge is based on the choice.

Exactly

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Beorn

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2011, 03:14:39 PM »
What are these implications you're talking about?
If something can be known with certainty, that certainty is an inevitable truth. To be sure of something is to acknowledge that nothing else can happen instead. If something else couldn't happen, god couldn't be sure.

An omnipotent god would know with complete certainty what you are going to do in your life. This knowledge isn't in any way go to affect your actions.

Stating your premise over and over doesn't make your conclusion anymore valid.

If he knows with complete certainty what you will do, than that means you can not choose to do anything but what he says you will, which means that you have no free will.

He isn't telling you to do anything, he's merely observing your actions. If he told you what to do in the first place, you wouldn't have free will whether he knew what you were going to do or not.

But does he know what you're going to do before you do it?
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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2011, 03:16:27 PM »
What are these implications you're talking about?
If something can be known with certainty, that certainty is an inevitable truth. To be sure of something is to acknowledge that nothing else can happen instead. If something else couldn't happen, god couldn't be sure.

An omnipotent god would know with complete certainty what you are going to do in your life. This knowledge isn't in any way go to affect your actions.

Stating your premise over and over doesn't make your conclusion anymore valid.

If he knows with complete certainty what you will do, than that means you can not choose to do anything but what he says you will, which means that you have no free will.

He isn't telling you to do anything, he's merely observing your actions. If he told you what to do in the first place, you wouldn't have free will whether he knew what you were going to do or not.

The mere knowing what you do means you can't do anything else.

If I knew with absolute certainty that at a certain time and date you were do eat cornflakes, that would mean when that time comes around you would have to be eating the cornflakes.

If you were to do otherwise, that means I was wrong. But I can't be wrong because I had absolute certainty, which means that you couldn't possibly do otherwise.

Which means you did not have free-will in the matter.