When will people understand?

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WardoggKC130FE

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When will people understand?
« on: February 03, 2011, 06:15:17 PM »
Killing babies is wrong, for any reason. No babies were harmed or killed in the production of this miracle.

*warning some graphic images of 2nd degree burns*  Nat Geo video
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Adult Stems are sucessful yet again. Why are we still wasting money on Embryonic research? What is it with liberals refusing to believe in science? Adult stem cells lead to cures. Embryonic stem cells do not. The debate is over.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 06:19:11 PM by WardoggKC130FE »

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Pongo

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2011, 06:30:52 PM »
ITT: Wardogg doesn't know how steam cells are harvested. No one is suprised.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2011, 06:32:37 PM »
ITT: Wardogg doesn't know how steam cells are harvested. No one is suprised.

Steam cells?  No I don't. But I am surprised I should. ;)

Which kind are you referring to? 


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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2011, 06:49:12 PM »
Adult stem cells come from umbilical cords.

Life is given value because it is sentient. If we grew a lump of flesh with human DNA in a lab for the sole purpose of harvesting stem cells or specific organs, and it had no brainwaves, should it have rights?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 06:52:26 PM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2011, 06:54:15 PM »
Did you two even watch the video??  They pulled them from his already existing skin?!?

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Tausami

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2011, 06:55:24 PM »
Stem cell harvesting has no ill effects on the fetus. The OP speaks of an out-dated method in which fetuses that were going to be aborted were instead donated to science.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2011, 07:02:38 PM »
Did you two even watch the video??  They pulled them from his already existing skin?!?

Stem cells are extremely precious for any treatment and research; why limit their supply without a good reason?

What is it with liberals refusing to believe in science? Adult stem cells lead to cures. Embryonic stem cells do not.
Those who understand the principles of science acknowledge that it cannot be known what will be discovered without investigating.

Right now, embryonic stems cells yield little results compared to other stem cells (despite their implicitly greater potential), but irrationally cutting off research is never a good thing.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 07:30:45 PM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Trekky0623

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2011, 07:21:26 PM »
Stem cells are not harvested from fetuses. What, do you think they got a woman pregnant and then harvested them? If you are harvesting fetal stem cells, the fetus is going to look like this:



A blastocyst. A collection of cells. There is no sentience here.

The problem with using adult stem cells is that they do not have the capacity to make any organ the way fetal stem cells do. So you are limited as to what kind of cells you can grow.

If you can show me an instance where a baby was harmed in stem cell research, then you have won in these forums.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2011, 04:13:39 AM »
If you can show me an instance where a baby was harmed in stem cell research, then you have won in these forums.
Quote
There are four primary sources for embryonic stem cells: existing stem cell lines, aborted or miscarried embryos, unused in vitro fertilized embryos, and cloned embryos


Now, considering most on here consider abortion to be the removal of a parasite, I know this probably will not suffice.  But there it is in black and white.
http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=14413

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2011, 07:22:21 AM »
What about the thousands of embryos that are wasted after the process of artificial insemination?  Would you prefer they be tossed out instead of becoming useful in saving lives.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2011, 07:26:40 AM »
An interesting question.  Thousands?  Are you sure about that?

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2011, 07:27:51 AM »
not per person.  I didn't specify a time period either.  What do you think the total is?

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Trekky0623

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2011, 07:48:59 AM »
An interesting question.  Thousands?  Are you sure about that?

Each parent that goes for artificial insemination is going to provide several specimens in the hopes that one will form a baby. So yes, per person several fetuses are not used, hence thousands of unused fetuses that would go in the trash.

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Crustinator

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2011, 09:42:34 AM »
What is it with liberals refusing to believe in science?

Now, considering most on here consider abortion to be the removal of a parasite

Sometimes you just troll too hard.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2011, 09:45:44 AM »
If you can show me an instance where a baby was harmed in stem cell research, then you have won in these forums.
Quote
There are four primary sources for embryonic stem cells: existing stem cell lines, aborted or miscarried embryos, unused in vitro fertilized embryos, and cloned embryos


Now, considering most on here consider abortion to be the removal of a parasite, I know this probably will not suffice.  But there it is in black and white.
http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=14413


Abortion of an embryo != abortion of a baby.

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Lorddave

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2011, 10:03:36 AM »
If you can show me an instance where a baby was harmed in stem cell research, then you have won in these forums.
Quote
There are four primary sources for embryonic stem cells: existing stem cell lines, aborted or miscarried embryos, unused in vitro fertilized embryos, and cloned embryos


Now, considering most on here consider abortion to be the removal of a parasite, I know this probably will not suffice.  But there it is in black and white.
http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=14413


Embryos = babies?
I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2011, 11:13:49 AM »
If you can show me an instance where a baby was harmed in stem cell research, then you have won in these forums.
Quote
There are four primary sources for embryonic stem cells: existing stem cell lines, aborted or miscarried embryos, unused in vitro fertilized embryos, and cloned embryos


Now, considering most on here consider abortion to be the removal of a parasite, I know this probably will not suffice.  But there it is in black and white.
http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=14413


Embryos = babies?
If you can show me an instance where a baby was harmed in stem cell research, then you have won in these forums.
Quote
There are four primary sources for embryonic stem cells: existing stem cell lines, aborted or miscarried embryos, unused in vitro fertilized embryos, and cloned embryos


Now, considering most on here consider abortion to be the removal of a parasite, I know this probably will not suffice.  But there it is in black and white.
http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=14413


Abortion of an embryo != abortion of a baby.

Exactly what week separates the two?

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Trekky0623

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2011, 11:19:00 AM »
Well, I would consider it when the embryo develops sentience. Since we don't know when that is, I would recommend that if you are going to get an abortion, to do it as early as possible to make sure that you abort it before it starts forming a brain and possibly thinking.

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Lorddave

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2011, 01:49:52 PM »
Well, I would consider it when the embryo develops sentience. Since we don't know when that is, I would recommend that if you are going to get an abortion, to do it as early as possible to make sure that you abort it before it starts forming a brain and possibly thinking.

Basically my thoughts too.

When it's an embryo it's nothing more than a bunch of cells.  It has the same look and consistency of a colony of bacteria.
Once it starts to develop a brain and have actual brain waves, then it's no longer just a collection of cells.

Kinda like your arm isn't a human, it's your arm.  If you cut it off, it's not human even though it holds all your DNA in a bunch of cells.
In fact, if you had to say what makes us Human, you'd have to say it's the brain.

It's not the heart.  People with artificial hearts are still human.
It's not our limbs.  People with missing limbs are still human.

So thus, it's the Brain that makes us Human.  Once that's formed, it's a baby.  Before that, it's a collection of cells.
I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2011, 02:14:55 PM »
Basically my thoughts too.

When it's an embryo it's nothing more than a bunch of cells.  It has the same look and consistency of a colony of bacteria.
Once it starts to develop a brain and have actual brain waves, then it's no longer just a collection of cells.

Kinda like your arm isn't a human, it's your arm.  If you cut it off, it's not human even though it holds all your DNA in a bunch of cells.
In fact, if you had to say what makes us Human, you'd have to say it's the brain.

It's not the heart.  People with artificial hearts are still human.
It's not our limbs.  People with missing limbs are still human.

So thus, it's the Brain that makes us Human.  Once that's formed, it's a baby.  Before that, it's a collection of cells.

I actually really like this argument.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2011, 02:57:19 PM »
So basically by time a women realizes shes pregnant...then its a baby.

Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days on the Electroencephalogram (EEG). H. Hamlin, "Life or Death by EEG," JAMA, Oct. 12, 1964, p. 120

Brain function, as measured on the Electroencephalogram, "appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks gestation," or six weeks after conception. J. Goldenring, "Development of the Fetal Brain," New England Jour. of Med., Aug. 26, 1982, p. 564

Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2011, 03:08:32 PM »
So basically by time a women realizes shes pregnant...then its a baby.

Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days on the Electroencephalogram (EEG). H. Hamlin, "Life or Death by EEG," JAMA, Oct. 12, 1964, p. 120

Brain function, as measured on the Electroencephalogram, "appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks gestation," or six weeks after conception. J. Goldenring, "Development of the Fetal Brain," New England Jour. of Med., Aug. 26, 1982, p. 564
but the point is that the stem cells we harvest come from a source that has no brain waves.
You can't outrun death forever
But you can sure make the old bastard work for it.

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Crustinator

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2011, 03:12:15 PM »
So basically by time a women realizes shes pregnant...then its a baby.

Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days on the Electroencephalogram (EEG). H. Hamlin, "Life or Death by EEG," JAMA, Oct. 12, 1964, p. 120

Brain function, as measured on the Electroencephalogram, "appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks gestation," or six weeks after conception. J. Goldenring, "Development of the Fetal Brain," New England Jour. of Med., Aug. 26, 1982, p. 564

Dog, you never quote your sources so I can only assume either

i) someone has hacked your account
ii) you're spoon feeding us someone else's posts. Not the first time.

Maybe you should read this. Which is a rebuttal to the spam you just fed us.


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EnglshGentleman

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2011, 03:12:39 PM »
So basically by time a women realizes shes pregnant...then its a baby.

Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days on the Electroencephalogram (EEG). H. Hamlin, "Life or Death by EEG," JAMA, Oct. 12, 1964, p. 120

Brain function, as measured on the Electroencephalogram, "appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks gestation," or six weeks after conception. J. Goldenring, "Development of the Fetal Brain," New England Jour. of Med., Aug. 26, 1982, p. 564

ITT: Another religious person quote mining.

http://eileen.250x.com/Main/Einstein/Brain_Waves.htm

EDIT: Screw you Crusty! You stole my link! >:D

Double EDIT: Holy shit! Look at what I just made! ^
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 03:47:08 PM by EnglshGentleman »

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Lorddave

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2011, 03:32:13 PM »
I was about to link the same thing. lol.
I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2011, 03:34:08 PM »
So basically by time a women realizes shes pregnant...then its a baby.

Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days on the Electroencephalogram (EEG). H. Hamlin, "Life or Death by EEG," JAMA, Oct. 12, 1964, p. 120

Brain function, as measured on the Electroencephalogram, "appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks gestation," or six weeks after conception. J. Goldenring, "Development of the Fetal Brain," New England Jour. of Med., Aug. 26, 1982, p. 564

Dog, you never quote your sources
What the fuck are you talking about?  My sources are listed right after the facts.   I'll bold them in this quote.

ii) you're spoon feeding us someone else's posts. Not the first time.
Cool story bro.  Im sure you have evidence to back up this claim.  Otherwise, well, its just another empty thought.  About the norm.

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Crustinator

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2011, 03:36:54 PM »
Yes I know your sources are listed right there. But you never, previously, in any other threads, have been so willing to offer up sources. So I figured you were disguising copypasta as your own intelligent musings. I was right.

Now read the reply.

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Lorddave

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2011, 03:38:42 PM »
So basically by time a women realizes shes pregnant...then its a baby.

Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days on the Electroencephalogram (EEG). H. Hamlin, "Life or Death by EEG," JAMA, Oct. 12, 1964, p. 120

Brain function, as measured on the Electroencephalogram, "appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks gestation," or six weeks after conception. J. Goldenring, "Development of the Fetal Brain," New England Jour. of Med., Aug. 26, 1982, p. 564

Dog, you never quote your sources
What the fuck are you talking about?  My sources are listed right after the facts.   I'll bold them in this quote.

ii) you're spoon feeding us someone else's posts. Not the first time.
Cool story bro.  Im sure you have evidence to back up this claim.  Otherwise, well, its just another empty thought.  About the norm.

Did you read the book and speech you're quoting?
I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2011, 03:39:08 PM »
Oh wait I see what you are saying...because its an anti-abortion site that i pulled those from, the scientists must have been paid off for their assestment of brain devopment.  ::)


Very well.  Here is one that backs up the claim that the brain forms in the 7th week of gestation.

http://brainmind.com/FetalBrainDevelopment.html
Quote
The human brainstem is fashioned around the 7th week of gestation and matures in a caudal to rostral arc thereby forming the medulla, pons, and midbrain. The medulla mediates arousal, breathing, heart rate, and gross movement of the body and head, and medullary functions appear prior to those of the pons which precede those of the midbrain. Hence, by the 9th gestational week the fetus will display spontaneous movements,

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Crustinator

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Re: When will people understand?
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2011, 03:42:09 PM »
Oh wait I see what you are saying...because its an anti-abortion site that i pulled those from, the scientists must have been paid off for their assestment of brain devopment.  ::)

Nope. The opinion is a false perspective on someones comment on someones comment on someones bit of research.

*grinds teeth* Read the article.