Not a Christian Nation

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Tausami

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #150 on: February 06, 2011, 05:34:39 PM »
What I want to know is what these "values" are that the United States is based off that they share with Christianity and ONLY Christianity.

Quite vague, is it not? 

Although Wardogg has made at least a couple of interesting arguments, I think the important point is that the religious right attempts to forcibly impose its own artificial and pathetic version of religion upon others when the founding laws of the United States clearly provide for a multi-cultural society which is a phenomenon that also has historical precedent. 

Aside from the traditions of British, French, and american political activists like the English Levellers, the Jacobins, and the Anti-Federalists, the Ottoman Empire, for example, was renown for its tolerance providing freedom of faith for Christians, muslims, and jews.  Certain elements of the agenda of the american religious right are reminiscent of the vehement nationalism and aggressive religious politics imbibed by some peoples in the final years of the Ottoman Empire after these same peoples had hitherto harmoniously lived together for centuries.  I think the american civil rights movement (and its predecessors) did produce some semblance of such common goodwill which the post-war conservative movement including the american religious right has generally tended to minimize if not destroy. 

As far as I am concerned, the British ancestors of the founders of america were heretics who had abandoned the Church by circa 1066 A.D. when England severed communion with Constantinople.  Thus, both the masonic american founders and the religious right are heretics, and I therefore view the american system as essentially non-Christian just as the Ottoman Empire.  A reference to the Holy Trinity in the Treaty of Paris in 1782 and the reference to the God of nature in the Declaration of Independence or plaques of the Ten Commandments in courtrooms are facades which obscure the fact that the United States was never Christian at any time.  The removal of such nominal signs of Christianity is indeed apostasy, but it is logical and expected for an essentially agnostically founded and oriented society.

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #151 on: February 10, 2011, 10:39:02 PM »
Wait wait wait wait... wait. So Wardogg, answer me this;
How would you feel when visiting your son's school and suddenly hearing an Islamic prayer through the announcements? What about some quotes from the Qu'ran plastered on the wall of the Supreme Court? Quran study sessions at school? I am genuinly curious to know if you're willing to defend these "religious rights" of other religions as well in our public institutions.

Also hi

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #152 on: February 11, 2011, 06:30:32 AM »
Wait wait wait wait... wait. So Wardogg, answer me this;
How would you feel when visiting your son's school and suddenly hearing an Islamic prayer through the announcements? What about some quotes from the Qu'ran plastered on the wall of the Supreme Court? Quran study sessions at school? I am genuinly curious to know if you're willing to defend these "religious rights" of other religions as well in our public institutions.

Also hi

The point being muslims didn't found this nation.

Also, I once took a field trip with my daughters class to a temporary Buddhist temple(with monks) set up in a museum in Hawaii. I was not pleased.  What's next a Satanic church? And for that matter fine, lets go to a Christian Wednesday service.  You think there would be an uproar then?

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Beorn

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #153 on: February 11, 2011, 06:55:35 AM »
So you're actually pro-oppression.
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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #154 on: February 11, 2011, 07:35:15 AM »
Wait wait wait wait... wait. So Wardogg, answer me this;
How would you feel when visiting your son's school and suddenly hearing an Islamic prayer through the announcements? What about some quotes from the Qu'ran plastered on the wall of the Supreme Court? Quran study sessions at school? I am genuinly curious to know if you're willing to defend these "religious rights" of other religions as well in our public institutions.

Also hi

So his answer is yes, he would be offended.

He just for some reason can't see his own hypocrisy.

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Trekky0623

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #155 on: February 11, 2011, 08:58:40 AM »
Wait wait wait wait... wait. So Wardogg, answer me this;
How would you feel when visiting your son's school and suddenly hearing an Islamic prayer through the announcements? What about some quotes from the Qu'ran plastered on the wall of the Supreme Court? Quran study sessions at school? I am genuinly curious to know if you're willing to defend these "religious rights" of other religions as well in our public institutions.

Also hi

The point being muslims didn't found this nation.

Also, I once took a field trip with my daughters class to a temporary Buddhist temple(with monks) set up in a museum in Hawaii. I was not pleased.  What's next a Satanic church? And for that matter fine, lets go to a Christian Wednesday service.  You think there would be an uproar then?

Who cares who founded the nation if the nation is built on secular principles? Also, who cares if your daughters went to a Buddhist temple? Did it scar them for life, seeing a different religion than they had been exposed to? I mean jesus, this line of reasoning is ridiculous.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #156 on: February 11, 2011, 09:13:37 AM »
Did it scar them for life, seeing a different religion than they had been exposed to?

No, I was right there to show the absolute absurdity of it all.

Would you have the same opinion if they had gone to a Christian service?

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Trekky0623

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #157 on: February 11, 2011, 09:16:18 AM »
Did it scar them for life, seeing a different religion than they had been exposed to?

No, I was right there to show the absolute absurdity of it all.

Would you have the same opinion if they had gone to a Christian service?

You mean like a Christmas pageant? Yeah, I'd have the same who-gives-a-shit attitude. As long as opinions aren't being forced onto someone, I really don't care.

Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #158 on: February 11, 2011, 09:23:54 AM »
Did it scar them for life, seeing a different religion than they had been exposed to?

No, I was right there to show the absolute absurdity of it all.

Would you have the same opinion if they had gone to a Christian service?

I would say that there is a difference between learning about other religions, and have the school have a sponsored religious rights. I have no problem with schools teaching about how Christianity as effected the world and teaching the basic tenants of it and all other major religions for that matter. I have problems with school sponsorship of a religion...
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Beorn

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #159 on: February 11, 2011, 09:27:09 AM »
Did it scar them for life, seeing a different religion than they had been exposed to?

No, I was right there to show the absolute absurdity of it all.


Serious question that I always wonder with religious people: How can you call other religions absurd but think that yours is valid?
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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #160 on: February 11, 2011, 04:18:26 PM »
The best collection of writings by american founders that I have come across is the 'Anti-Federalist Papers' compiled by Morton Borden.

http://www.iahushua.com/hist/AntiFED.html

The Anti-Federalists supported the revolution against the British monarchy, but opposed the US Constitution because it was an instrument of tyranny that reversed what the revolution had accomplished.  They were responsible for the Bill of Rights.  The Anti-Federalists wanted more rights enumerated, but compromised with the Hamiltonians (the Federalists) who wanted common peoples' rights restricted.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #161 on: February 11, 2011, 07:06:53 PM »
The Bill of Rights addressed many of the concerns that the anti federalists had, but not all.  In reality the signing of the Constitution should be known as "The Great Compromise". 

The Federalists (which is a misnomer, they were actually nationalists) supported a strong national government, with all government powers originating at the national level, then the national government would give some of that power to the state governments, who would give some to the local governments, etc.

The Anti-Federalists (also a misnomer, since they actually were federalists) supported a federal government, with all power originating with the people, who give up some power to the local governments, who in turn give some to the state governments, who in turn give some to the national government.

What we ended up getting in the end was mostly a federalist document, where powers are left with the people, and the states, and the federal government is limited.  There were several nationalist compromises though, the federal government is solely responsible for regulating, printing, and coining money, for example.  States are also not allowed to make treaties with foreign nations, that can only be done at the Federal level.

Madison was against enumerated rights at first, but not for the reason that they wanted rights restricted.  His reasoning was that because of the doctrine of enumeration (that is, if the specific power is not enumerated in the Constitution, then the Federal Government does not have it) there was no specific power given to the Federal government to limit speech, religion, property, etc. in article 1 section 8.  His fear was if they enumerated rights in the Constitution, it would imply that the government was free to limit other rights not enumerated, and to expand on the powers enumerated.  For this he proposed the 9th amendment.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #162 on: February 11, 2011, 07:33:29 PM »
The point being muslims didn't found this nation.

Right, Christians did (shut up 17).  But the Christians (or variant of) founded a secular government.

The original colonies were primarily peopled by refugees fleeing religious persecution in other countries. But almost upon arrival, the Puritans only continued that practice against native Shaman, then against Quakers, and even each other over religious differences. Catholics to the South were even worse!  The founding fathers however were largely Deists, the least devout form of theism.  They were brilliant men who knew better than to let religion rule over law because theocracy has in all instances almost automatically violated human rights and it inevitably always does.  Consequently, the irreligious and non-Christian framers of the American Constitution produced the first government ever to grant all its citizens the right to religious freedom, and they did so by forbidding the government from sponsoring or promoting one religion over any other.  Because it is not possible to have freedom of religion without having freedom from religion.    

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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. --Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

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But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

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Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom


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Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

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History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

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Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814


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An alliance or coalition between Government and religion cannot be too carefully guarded against......Every new and successful example therefore of a PERFECT SEPARATION between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance........religion and government will exist in greater purity, without (rather) than with the aid of government. [James Madison in a letter to Livingston, 1822, from Leonard W. Levy- The Establishment Clause, Religion and the First Amendment,pg 124]

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It was the belief of all sects at one time that the establishment of Religion by law, was right & necessary; that the true religion ought to be established in exclusion of every other; and that the only question to be decided was which was the true religion. The example of Holland proved that a toleration of sects, dissenting from the established sect, was safe & even useful. The example of the Colonies, now States, which rejected religious establishments altogether, proved that all Sects might be safely & advantageously put on a footing of equal & entire freedom.... We are teaching the world the great truth that Govts do better without Kings & Nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Gov. [James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, The Writings of James Madison, Gaillard Hunt]

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Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. [James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785]

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The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

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Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, May 19, 1821
« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 02:29:03 PM by Marcus Aurelius »

Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #163 on: February 11, 2011, 07:52:15 PM »
Wait wait wait wait... wait. So Wardogg, answer me this;
How would you feel when visiting your son's school and suddenly hearing an Islamic prayer through the announcements? What about some quotes from the Qu'ran plastered on the wall of the Supreme Court? Quran study sessions at school? I am genuinly curious to know if you're willing to defend these "religious rights" of other religions as well in our public institutions.

Also hi

The point being muslims didn't found this nation.

And? The subject matter is religious freedom. You didn't answer my question.

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #164 on: February 11, 2011, 08:00:59 PM »
The Federalists ... they were ... nationalists

Good point.

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Tausami

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #165 on: February 12, 2011, 02:07:48 PM »
ITT: Wardogg is a closet racist.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #166 on: February 12, 2011, 03:15:05 PM »
ITT: Wardogg is a closet racist.

.....nevermind.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #167 on: February 12, 2011, 03:15:40 PM »
ITT: Wardogg is a closet racist.

He isn't.

He is an open one.

Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #168 on: February 12, 2011, 06:48:51 PM »
ITT: Wardogg is a closet racist.

.....nevermind.

Are you willing to defend Muslims having the right to prayer in public schools for the sake of religious freedom?

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Tausami

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #169 on: February 12, 2011, 06:57:52 PM »
If you are, I welcome you to your opinion. If not, I must dismiss you as a hypocrite.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #170 on: February 12, 2011, 08:17:11 PM »
But this is a Christian nation!!

 ??? ??? ???

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #171 on: February 13, 2011, 08:25:40 AM »
ITT: Wardogg is a closet racist.

.....nevermind.

Are you willing to defend Muslims having the right to prayer in public schools for the sake of religious freedom?

I, Wardogg, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

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Tausami

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #172 on: February 13, 2011, 08:39:04 AM »
ITT: Wardogg is a closet racist.

.....nevermind.

Are you willing to defend Muslims having the right to prayer in public schools for the sake of religious freedom?

I, Wardogg, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me Cthulhu.

Are you implying that Islamic prayer in schools is a threat to America. but Christian prayer isn't?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 08:40:53 AM by Tausami »

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Trekky0623

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #173 on: February 13, 2011, 08:41:42 AM »
ITT: Wardogg is a closet racist.

.....nevermind.

Are you willing to defend Muslims having the right to prayer in public schools for the sake of religious freedom?

I, Wardogg, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

Good. So we won't have forced prayer in school, because not all people are Christian, and we have freedom of religious practice in this country, as listed in the first amendment of the constitution. Everyone can still pray, but we're not going to force them. Glad we can agree.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #174 on: February 13, 2011, 08:42:09 AM »
ITT: Wardogg is a closet racist.

.....nevermind.

Are you willing to defend Muslims having the right to prayer in public schools for the sake of religious freedom?

I, Wardogg, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

That oath prohibits both Islam and Christianity from being forced on kids in public schools. If that was your intended answer, I applaud you.
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #175 on: February 13, 2011, 09:41:21 AM »
Who said anything about being forced?

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #176 on: February 13, 2011, 09:42:35 AM »
Who said anything about being forced?

In many public schools children are require to pray.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #177 on: February 13, 2011, 09:44:08 AM »
Who said anything about being forced?

In many public schools children are require to pray.

Oh, so you admit the title to this thread is incorrect?

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #178 on: February 13, 2011, 09:50:06 AM »
Who said anything about being forced?

In many public schools children are require to pray.

Oh, so you admit the title to this thread is incorrect?

Where did I say this? But yes I do. This is not a Christian nation.

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Beorn

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #179 on: February 13, 2011, 09:54:25 AM »
Who said anything about being forced?

You wanted the schools to start with a prayer.
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Only one thing can save our future. Give Thork a BanHammer for Th*rksakes!