Not a Christian Nation

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #120 on: February 03, 2011, 08:04:00 AM »
Why has nobody brought up this bill that receive a unanimous vote from the senate:

Quote from: Treaty of Tripoli
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion


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berny_74

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #121 on: February 03, 2011, 08:15:09 AM »
Why has nobody brought up this bill that receive a unanimous vote from the senate:

Quote from: Treaty of Tripoli
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion



Because the United States of America of the past is not the United States of America of the present.
Times change and morals change.

Berny
'Nuff said.


To be fair, sometimes what FE'ers say makes so little sense that it's hard to come up with a rebuttal.
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #122 on: February 03, 2011, 08:39:09 AM »
Why has nobody brought up this bill that receive a unanimous vote from the senate:

Quote from: Treaty of Tripoli
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion



I did bring it up, in the OP.  I said can you imagine a bill with this language being approved unanimously today.


Because the United States of America of the past is not the United States of America of the present.
Times change and morals change.

Berny
'Nuff said.

Also stated in the OP, the debate in this thread is not whether we are a christian nation now, in fact we are probably the most christian of all 1st world nations.  The debate is on whether we were founded this way.

Also, nobody is arguing that the founders were not religious, it is completely irrelevant to whether or not our government is secular. 

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #123 on: February 03, 2011, 08:52:28 AM »
Why has nobody brought up this bill that receive a unanimous vote from the senate:

Quote from: Treaty of Tripoli
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion



Because the United States of America of the past is not the United States of America of the present.
Times change and morals change.

Berny
'Nuff said.

As Beno said, we are talking about whether or not the states were founded on the Christian religion. The Treaty of Tripoli states that it was not, and considering the second congress and a founding father unanimously voted for it, I think that is pretty conclusive.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #124 on: February 03, 2011, 09:05:00 AM »
Why has nobody brought up this bill that receive a unanimous vote from the senate:

Quote from: Treaty of Tripoli
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion



Because the United States of America of the past is not the United States of America of the present.
Times change and morals change.

Berny
'Nuff said.

As Beno said, we are talking about whether or not the states were founded on the Christian religion. The Treaty of Tripoli states that it was not, and considering the second congress and a founding father unanimously voted for it, I think that is pretty conclusive.

An interesting fact.  After the treaty was broken by the muslims, the article was taken out.  You should really read a whole thread before commenting on it.  Welcome to 5 pages ago.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #125 on: February 03, 2011, 09:14:04 AM »
Why has nobody brought up this bill that receive a unanimous vote from the senate:

Quote from: Treaty of Tripoli
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion



Because the United States of America of the past is not the United States of America of the present.
Times change and morals change.

Berny
'Nuff said.

As Beno said, we are talking about whether or not the states were founded on the Christian religion. The Treaty of Tripoli states that it was not, and considering the second congress and a founding father unanimously voted for it, I think that is pretty conclusive.

An interesting fact.  After the treaty was broken by the muslims, the article was taken out.  You should really read a whole thread before commenting on it.  Welcome to 5 pages ago.

Irrelevant.  Though the treaty that was presented to the muslims did not contain article 11, it was included in the version that was voted on unanimously and passed into law.

EDIT:  I'll also add that the version with article 11 was also read out loud in it's entirity before being voted on.  Everybody who voted yes on this knew this language was in the treaty.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 09:15:35 AM by Marcus Aurelius »

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #126 on: February 03, 2011, 09:19:21 AM »

Irrelevant.  Though the treaty that was presented to the muslims did not contain article 11, it was included in the version that was voted on unanimously and passed into law.

EDIT:  I'll also add that the version with article 11 was also read out loud in it's entirity before being voted on.  Everybody who voted yes on this knew this language was in the treaty.

They also lied to and deceived many an Indian nation.  The US government has never ever lied before to get what it wanted.  ::)

Point being if it was so important, you would have thought they would have left it in.   /thread.


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Lorddave

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #127 on: February 03, 2011, 09:23:49 AM »

Irrelevant.  Though the treaty that was presented to the muslims did not contain article 11, it was included in the version that was voted on unanimously and passed into law.

EDIT:  I'll also add that the version with article 11 was also read out loud in it's entirity before being voted on.  Everybody who voted yes on this knew this language was in the treaty.

They also lied to and deceived many an Indian nation.  The US government has never ever lied before to get what it wanted.  ::)

Point being if it was so important, you would have thought they would have left it in.   /thread.


Why would it be important to state the US was not founded as a christion nation?
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #128 on: February 03, 2011, 09:31:21 AM »

Irrelevant.  Though the treaty that was presented to the muslims did not contain article 11, it was included in the version that was voted on unanimously and passed into law.

EDIT:  I'll also add that the version with article 11 was also read out loud in it's entirity before being voted on.  Everybody who voted yes on this knew this language was in the treaty.

They also lied to and deceived many an Indian nation.  The US government has never ever lied before to get what it wanted.  ::)

Point being if it was so important, you would have thought they would have left it in.   /thread.


Why would it be important to state the US was not founded as a christion nation?

I'm not sure what you are getting at.  It was only included in that particular article because there was an advantage to having a treaty with the muslims at that time.   When they broke the treaty and it was renegotiated, it was left out because they had them by the balls, so to speak, and didn't need them as much as they needed us.  Which is why we left it out.  It was untrue and wasn't needed anymore.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #129 on: February 03, 2011, 09:32:50 AM »

Irrelevant.  Though the treaty that was presented to the muslims did not contain article 11, it was included in the version that was voted on unanimously and passed into law.

EDIT:  I'll also add that the version with article 11 was also read out loud in it's entirity before being voted on.  Everybody who voted yes on this knew this language was in the treaty.

They also lied to and deceived many an Indian nation.  The US government has never ever lied before to get what it wanted.  ::)

Point being if it was so important, you would have thought they would have left it in.   /thread.


Why would it be important to state the US was not founded as a christion nation?

I'm not sure what you are getting at.  It was only included in that particular article because there was an advantage to having a treaty with the muslims at that time.   When they broke the treaty and it was renegotiated, it was left out because they had them by the balls, so to speak, and didn't need them as much as they needed us.  Which is why we left it out.  It was untrue and wasn't needed anymore.

And this is documented fact, or just your speculation?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 09:44:52 AM by EnglshGentleman »

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #130 on: February 03, 2011, 09:43:51 AM »
And this is documented fact, your just your speculation?

Did you read the thread?

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #131 on: February 03, 2011, 09:45:04 AM »
Quote
it was left out because they had them by the balls, so to speak, and didn't need them as much as they needed us.  Which is why we left it out.  It was untrue and wasn't needed anymore.

And this is documented fact, or just your speculation?


Please site where congress stated this is the reason they left it out.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #132 on: February 03, 2011, 09:47:50 AM »
Prove to me its a fallacy.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #133 on: February 03, 2011, 09:50:31 AM »
Where did I state it was a fallacy? ???

I asked you to site the Congress stated what you said they did. Otherwise, this is just you being so desperate that you have to make things up to have an argument.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #134 on: February 03, 2011, 09:54:50 AM »
Where did I state it was a fallacy? ???

In logic and rhetoric, a fallacy is incorrect reasoning in argumentation resulting in a misconception.

Even if I am just speculating(which isn't an admission) you are saying that it is incorrect.

I asked you to site the Congress stated what you said they did. Otherwise, this is just you being so desperate that you have to make things up to have an argument.

Get back to me when you can prove otherwise.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #135 on: February 03, 2011, 10:03:34 AM »
In logic and rhetoric, a fallacy is incorrect reasoning in argumentation resulting in a misconception.

Even if I am just speculating(which isn't an admission) you are saying that it is incorrect.

Incorrect. Something being fallacious is different than something being incorrect.

Get back to me when you can prove otherwise.

Appeal to ignorance as well as trying to shift the burden of proof. That is fallacious.

You made the assertion that it happened, therefore it is up to you to prove so. Right now you are essentially saying, "It happened! Prove me wrong."

If you cannot provide evidence to support your assertion, then we are free to discard it along with every other unsupported reason why the article was removed.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 10:07:25 AM by EnglshGentleman »

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Tausami

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #136 on: February 03, 2011, 05:31:05 PM »
There is an invisible unicorn in this image. As you can not prove me wrong, clearly I am right.


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Lorddave

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #137 on: February 03, 2011, 06:28:35 PM »

Irrelevant.  Though the treaty that was presented to the muslims did not contain article 11, it was included in the version that was voted on unanimously and passed into law.

EDIT:  I'll also add that the version with article 11 was also read out loud in it's entirity before being voted on.  Everybody who voted yes on this knew this language was in the treaty.

They also lied to and deceived many an Indian nation.  The US government has never ever lied before to get what it wanted.  ::)

Point being if it was so important, you would have thought they would have left it in.   /thread.


Why would it be important to state the US was not founded as a christion nation?

I'm not sure what you are getting at.  It was only included in that particular article because there was an advantage to having a treaty with the muslims at that time.   When they broke the treaty and it was renegotiated, it was left out because they had them by the balls, so to speak, and didn't need them as much as they needed us.  Which is why we left it out.  It was untrue and wasn't needed anymore.

I agree with English that you need to site the source of this claim but assuming it's correct....


You're saying that America was founded on lying.
You're also saying that America was not founded as a Christian nation. 
Why?
Well, how can it be a Christian nation if it lies about it?  Wouldn't that be horribly against Christian values?
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Pongo

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #138 on: February 03, 2011, 06:34:06 PM »
There is an invisible unicorn in this image. As you can not prove me wrong, clearly I am right.



I can't find it anywhere.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Tausami

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Trekky0623

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #141 on: February 03, 2011, 06:54:10 PM »
http://www.au.org/resources/history/old-docs/joel-barlow-and-the-treaty.pdf

Seems like speculation to me. Most of his claims are weak at best. The thought that one guy was responsible for Article 11, and that either all of the Congress didn't see the Article or that it was snuck in there is unfounded and ludicrous.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #142 on: February 03, 2011, 09:19:15 PM »
ITT: The OP has no basis for his outlandish claim.
Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on why you've disregarded the majority of the thread?

The US is not a Christian Nation because it was founded on the principle of separation of church and state. The treaty is simply an example of declaration of freedom from a certain religious system.

It's irrelevant, but the founders were not Christians either.

Quote
The Government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion.
-The Treaty of Tripoli

When philosophic reason is clear and certain by intuition or necessary induction, no subsequent revelation supported by prophecies or miracles can supersede it.
-John Adams

I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.
-Thomas Jefferson

The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.
-Benjamin Franklin

By heaven, we understand a state of happiness, infinite in degree and eternal in duration. I can do nothing to deserve such a reward. He that, for giving a draught of water to a thirsty person, should expect to be paid with a good plantation, would be modest in his demands compared with those who think they deserve heaven for the little good they do on earth. ... for my part, I have not the vanity to think I deserve it, the folly to expect, or the ambition to desire it.
-Benjamin Franklin

Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.
-Benjamin Franklin

He (the Rev. Mr. Whitefield) used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard.
-Benjamin Franklin

In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the want of it.
-Benjamin Franklin

I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.
-Benjamin Franklin

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July, 1816

These are but a few of the quotes I bothered to track down before getting bored.

Regardless....America was founded on Christian morals and values.  

What's your current position Wardogg? ???
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #143 on: February 03, 2011, 11:33:10 PM »
http://www.au.org/resources/history/old-docs/joel-barlow-and-the-treaty.pdf

This does nothing but show evidence for exactly what I was claiming.  Did you read this?

Quote
In the end, how Article 11 got into the Treaty is less important than the reaction it received in the United States. As
Borden notes, ?What is significant about the Tripoli treaty is...its ready acceptance by the government. Not a word
of protest was raised against Article 11 in 1797....Whatever their personal feelings on the question of religious
equality for non-Christians in particular states, all concurred that Article 11 comported with the principles of the
Constitution.?


In the Senate, the treaty barely caused a ripple. According to The Journal of the Executive Proceedings of the United
States Senate, the treaty was read aloud on the floor of the Senate and copies were printed for the senators. No
discussion or argument about the document was recorded, but the vote in favor was unanimous.

Quote
But Hurgronje?s discovery is irrelevant. There is no longer any doubt that the English version of the treaty
transmitted to the United States did contain the ?no Christian nation? language. Article 11 appeared intact in
newspapers of the day as well as in volumes of treaties and proceedings of Congress published later, including the
Session Laws of the Fifth Congress, published in 1797, and in a 1799 volume titled The Laws of the United States. In
1832 Article 11 appeared in the treaty when it was reprinted in Documents, Legislative and Executive, of the
Congress of the United States 1789-1815, Volume II ? a tome that can still be examined today in the Library of
Congress? main reading room.


Article 11 soon took on a life of its own. Years after the treaty was ratified, references to it began popping up in
speeches, articles and court rulings. Borden notes that ?Article 11 had been cited hundreds of times in numerous
court cases and in political debates whenever the issue of church-state relations arose
....Jews frequently referred to
the article in discussions of a much-debated question, whether or not the United States was a Christian nation.?

Quote
In 1804 U.S. ships under the command of Stephen Decatur bombarded Tripoli, and the blockade was stepped up.
The following year, Tripoli sued for peace. A diplomat named Tobias Lear negotiated a peace treaty; the new
document did not contain the exact anti-?Christian nation? language of Barlow?s treaty, although it did contain an
article stating that the United States has no established church.
The United States agreed to pay Tripoli $60,000, and
all of the Philadelphia?s sailors were released.


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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #144 on: February 04, 2011, 04:28:42 AM »
What's your current position Wardogg? ???

My current position is that Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were not practicing Christians.  2 out of 56 is a majority for sure.

1. John Hancock (Massachusetts)
New Hampshire
2. Josiah Bartlett
3. William Whipple
4. Matthew Thornton
Massachusetts
5. Samuel Adams
6. John Adams
7. Robert Treat Paine
8. Elbridge Gerry
Rhode Island
9. Stephen Hopkins
10. William Ellery
Connecticut
11. Roger Sherman
12. Samuel Huntington
13. William Williams
14. Oliver Wolcott
New York
15. William Floyd
16. Philip Livingston
17. Francis Lewis
18. Lewis Morris
New Jersey
19. Richard Stockton
20. John Witherspoon
21. Francis Hopkinson
22. John Hart
23. Abraham Clark
Pennsylvania
24. Robert Morris
25. Benjamin Rush
26. Benjamin Franklin
27. John Morton
28. George Clymer
29. James Smith
30. George Taylor
31. James Wilson
32. George Ross
Delaware
33. George Read
34. Caesar Rodney
35. Thomas McKean
Maryland
36. Samuel Chase
37. William Paca
38. Thomas Stone
39. Charles Carroll of Carrollton
Virginia
40. George Wythe
41. Richard Henry Lee
42. Thomas Jefferson
43. Benjamin Harrison
44. Thomas Nelson, Jr.
45. Francis Lightfoot Lee
46. Carter Braxton
North Carolina
47. William Hooper
48. Joseph Hewes
49. John Penn
South Carolina
50. Edward Rutledge
51. Thomas Heyward, Jr.
52. Thomas Lynch, Jr.
53. Arthur Middleton
Georgia
54. Button Gwinnett
55. Lyman Hall
56. George Walton


the new document did not contain the exact anti-?Christian nation? language of Barlow?s treaty, although it did contain an
article stating that the United States has no established church.


Yes I did read it and this quote proves my point.  Ive never said our government has an established church.  And neither did the founding fathers. But you cannot deny what we were based on.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #145 on: February 04, 2011, 05:03:07 AM »
What's your current position Wardogg? ???

My current position is that Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were not practicing Christians.  2 out of 56 is a majority for sure.

1. John Hancock (Massachusetts)
New Hampshire
2. Josiah Bartlett
3. William Whipple
4. Matthew Thornton
Massachusetts
5. Samuel Adams
6. John Adams
7. Robert Treat Paine
8. Elbridge Gerry
Rhode Island
9. Stephen Hopkins
10. William Ellery
Connecticut
11. Roger Sherman
12. Samuel Huntington
13. William Williams
14. Oliver Wolcott
New York
15. William Floyd
16. Philip Livingston
17. Francis Lewis
18. Lewis Morris
New Jersey
19. Richard Stockton
20. John Witherspoon
21. Francis Hopkinson
22. John Hart
23. Abraham Clark
Pennsylvania
24. Robert Morris
25. Benjamin Rush
26. Benjamin Franklin
27. John Morton
28. George Clymer
29. James Smith
30. George Taylor
31. James Wilson
32. George Ross
Delaware
33. George Read
34. Caesar Rodney
35. Thomas McKean
Maryland
36. Samuel Chase
37. William Paca
38. Thomas Stone
39. Charles Carroll of Carrollton
Virginia
40. George Wythe
41. Richard Henry Lee
42. Thomas Jefferson
43. Benjamin Harrison
44. Thomas Nelson, Jr.
45. Francis Lightfoot Lee
46. Carter Braxton
North Carolina
47. William Hooper
48. Joseph Hewes
49. John Penn
South Carolina
50. Edward Rutledge
51. Thomas Heyward, Jr.
52. Thomas Lynch, Jr.
53. Arthur Middleton
Georgia
54. Button Gwinnett
55. Lyman Hall
56. George Walton

Nobody has argued that the majority of founders were not Christian.  Of course they were, that does not mean they created a christian government.  The federal government was the most secular government in history.  Also, why is it you did not include one of the most important founders, James Madison, who is often credited as the author of the Constitution?  The man authored the Bill of Rights.  What about Alexander Hamilton?

The Four founders most responsible for the language in the Constitution are:  James Madison, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Frankin.

EDIT:  Sorry, Jefferson and Benjamin Frankin were more responsible for the Declaration, not the Constitution.

Quote
the new document did not contain the exact anti-?Christian nation? language of Barlow?s treaty, although it did contain an
article stating that the United States has no established church.


Yes I did read it and this quote proves my point.  Ive never said our government has an established church.  And neither did the founding fathers. But you cannot deny what we were based on.

The only evidence you have offered is that our founders were Christian (well most of them were).  I never said that they were not, and it does not prove we were founded a Christian nation.  We are a nation of course, made of of mostly Christians, but the government is secular.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 05:07:26 AM by Marcus Aurelius »

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #146 on: February 04, 2011, 10:32:33 AM »

My current position is that Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were not practicing Christians.  2 out of 56 is a majority for sure.

Is 'practicing' the operative word? (I presume you do not think they were Christians at all?)

It's true that their personal religious opinions are irrelevant to the country, but you should still know that citing dozens of deists as Christians is blatantly deceitful. Many of them criticized organized religion.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 10:35:52 AM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
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Lorddave

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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #147 on: February 04, 2011, 01:39:35 PM »
What I want to know is what these "values" are that the United States is based off that they share with Christianity and ONLY Christianity.
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Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #148 on: February 04, 2011, 11:31:16 PM »
What I want to know is what these "values" are that the United States is based off that they share with Christianity and ONLY Christianity.

Quite vague, is it not? 

Although Wardogg has made at least a couple of interesting arguments, I think the important point is that the religious right attempts to forcibly impose its own artificial and pathetic version of religion upon others when the founding laws of the United States clearly provide for a multi-cultural society which is a phenomenon that also has historical precedent. 

Aside from the traditions of British, French, and american political activists like the English Levellers, the Jacobins, and the Anti-Federalists, the Ottoman Empire, for example, was renown for its tolerance providing freedom of faith for Christians, muslims, and jews.  Certain elements of the agenda of the american religious right are reminiscent of the vehement nationalism and aggressive religious politics imbibed by some peoples in the final years of the Ottoman Empire after these same peoples had hitherto harmoniously lived together for centuries.  I think the american civil rights movement (and its predecessors) did produce some semblance of such common goodwill which the post-war conservative movement including the american religious right has generally tended to minimize if not destroy. 

As far as I am concerned, the British ancestors of the founders of america were heretics who had abandoned the Church by circa 1066 A.D. when England severed communion with Constantinople.  Thus, both the masonic american founders and the religious right are heretics, and I therefore view the american system as essentially non-Christian just as the Ottoman Empire.  A reference to the Holy Trinity in the Treaty of Paris in 1782 and the reference to the God of nature in the Declaration of Independence or plaques of the Ten Commandments in courtrooms are facades which obscure the fact that the United States was never Christian at any time.  The removal of such nominal signs of Christianity is indeed apostasy, but it is logical and expected for an essentially agnostically founded and oriented society.

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17 November

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 1317
Re: Not a Christian Nation
« Reply #149 on: February 06, 2011, 12:37:09 PM »
My current position is that Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were not practicing Christians.  2 out of 56 is a majority for sure.

Nobody has argued that the majority of founders were not Christian...

...except for me.  None of them were Christians.