Will Anyone Else Miss FET?

How could that be shown to you? Please provide an actual example of proof that would be possible to acquire (assuming the Earth is round)

One simple and effective method would be to put me inside an alleged space shuttle and show me the alleged roundness of the Earth.

We are at an impasse then, and arguing is beyond pointless. Nothing I am able or willing to acquire or argue will convince you that you are wrong, since I'm not paying you a Virgin Galactic ticket in this life

We are at an impasse then, and arguing is beyond pointless. Nothing I am able or willing to acquire or argue will convince you that you are wrong, since I'm not paying you a Virgin Galactic ticket in this life

Well, if you can't beat em, why not join em?

Well, if you can't beat em, why not join em?

That is the most flawed line of reasoning I have heard in my life. No such luck

Quote from: fluffycornsnake on January 27, 2011, 02:00:15 AM

Well, if you can't beat em, why not join em?

That is the most flawed line of reasoning I have heard in my life. No such luck

Au contraire monsieur! It is flawless reasoning. You have expressed your inability and unwillingness to contradict my undeniable claims. Therefore the only rational choice left is to agree with me.

No. I have said that your narrowmindedness and self-denial is excluding me from convincing you of even very simple facts.

Let me demonstrate,

The suit argument

You are unable to understand that no matter how you set up a suit, if it has a person inside it and is holding that person up against gravity, the person inside will feel gravity.

When you don't understand this very simple and obvious fact, there is no way that I can reason with you and continue the argument. That is why I have given up on you.

If another, more reasonable mind would like to take up the discussion, then by all means be my guest!

The suit argument

You are unable to understand that no matter how you set up a suit, if it has a person inside it and is holding that person up against gravity, the person inside will feel gravity.

Lining the inside of the suits are 'air bags' of a sort. These air bags are controlled by sensors and when inflated their purpose is simply to apply some pressure on the corresponding part of the body. When the passenger is face down he will feel pressure on his front (due to gravity pulling him against it). To counteract this pressure, the air bags at his back will inflate so that the passenger feels the same pressure on both sides of his body. This process will continue to rearrange itself accordingly as the passenger moves around.

You see? It is really not complicated. Your refusal to open your mind to these obvious possibilities is unfortunate, but I shall not give up on you

That is so stupid that . . gah. I will continue to play this game, then.

I thought of that. I won't set up a complicated diagram, but basically I propose this experiment to disprove your magic-suit notion:

Try standing on your head. How do you feel? Let's see, you get redheaded and feel like your head is bursting from blood flowing down into your face, for one. Oh, I see. Gravity also affects everything -inside- your body. That is, you will still feel a strong dragging downwards within your body, even if the air-bag system was advanced enough to simulate the same amount of pressure all over your body. In short again, the only way to accurately simulate zero-gee is to not allow gravity to affect the body at all.

Edit: Or, that is, the only way to simulate zero-gee is well, zero-gee

That is so stupid that . . gah. I will continue to play this game, then.

Please afford this discussion the seriousness it deserves. Treating it like a game will not prove beneficial to either of us.

Try standing on your head. How do you feel? Let's see, you get redheaded and feel like your head is bursting from blood flowing down into your face, for one. Oh, I see. Gravity also affects everything -inside- your body. That is, you will still feel a strong dragging downwards within your body, even if the air-bag system was advanced enough to simulate the same amount of pressure all over your body.

Certain air bags will be positioned against select veins in order to stem the flow of blood to the head. Of course, there may be further (very mild) nauseating symptoms, but the Virgin crew will have no trouble explaining these away as psychological tricks of the mind. Having never experience 'zero-gravity' before, the passengers will have no reason to doubt such explanations.

That is, you will still feel a strong dragging downwards within your body, even if the air-bag system was advanced enough to simulate the same amount of pressure all over your body.

Don't try to misunderstand what I'm saying. The blood flowing into your head was just one of innumerable examples. Every part of you body is dragged down, and you are able to sense this inside yourself. The contents of your stomach churning around, flesh sagging in the direction of gravity, harder breath because of a greater weight pressing against the lungs.

Also, doing what you propose would cause the person to have a stroke because of extra pressure that can't be relieved. There is of course also the fact that blocking the veins will only increase the pressure in your head, since the veins take away blood from the head. The arteries that bring blood to the head don't run close to the skin, and pressing hard enough against them to relieve the extra pressure would choke the suject to death.

Regardless, there's also this,

Link

That's the Vestibular system. In other words, the human's sense of balance and spatial orientation. For example, this system always tells humans which way is down. Only when there is gravity of course. It doesn't work at all in zero-gee.

Convinced yet?

It is possible but in the long run a simulation will be much cheaper.

What evidence do you have to support this claim?

Quote from: silver on January 27, 2011, 01:51:20 AM

We are at an impasse then, and arguing is beyond pointless. Nothing I am able or willing to acquire or argue will convince you that you are wrong, since I'm not paying you a Virgin Galactic ticket in this life

Well, if you can't beat em, why not join em?

More like "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullsh*t".

Quote from: fluffycornsnake on January 26, 2011, 10:17:14 PM

It is possible but in the long run a simulation will be much cheaper.

What evidence do you have to support this claim?

Once the simulator has been set up, the cost to maintain it will be minimal. It will eventually pay for itself many times over.

Quote from: fluffycornsnake on January 27, 2011, 02:00:15 AM

Quote from: silver on January 27, 2011, 01:51:20 AM

We are at an impasse then, and arguing is beyond pointless. Nothing I am able or willing to acquire or argue will convince you that you are wrong, since I'm not paying you a Virgin Galactic ticket in this life

Well, if you can't beat em, why not join em?

More like "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullsh*t".

There is only a very fine line separating the two (as I am sure you will agree). Perhaps they are simply two sides of the same coin?

Don't try to misunderstand what I'm saying. The blood flowing into your head was just one of innumerable examples. Every part of you body is dragged down, and you are able to sense this inside yourself. The contents of your stomach churning around, flesh sagging in the direction of gravity, harder breath because of a greater weight pressing against the lungs.

Yes, perhaps I understated the nauseating effects. Nevertheless, pop psychology will avert suspicions. Moreover, assuming this 'vestibular system' is not just a Conspiracy fabrication, it is likely that Virgin will desensitise it to some extent using g-force training.

Quote from: markjo on January 27, 2011, 06:36:28 AM

Quote from: fluffycornsnake on January 26, 2011, 10:17:14 PM

It is possible but in the long run a simulation will be much cheaper.

What evidence do you have to support this claim?

Once the simulator has been set up, the cost to maintain it will be minimal. It will eventually pay for itself many times over.

What about the cost of maintaining the deception?  Are you suggesting that no one will catch on that they are being deceived, especially when there are other companies working on private space flight as well?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_manned_spacecraft#Commercial

What about the cost of maintaining the deception?  Are you suggesting that no one will catch on that they are being deceived, especially when there are other companies working on private space flight as well?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_manned_spacecraft#Commercial

Anyone who catches on will be dealt with by the Conspiracy. It is likely these other companies are trying to replicate Virgin's simulator technology.

Quote from: markjo on January 27, 2011, 08:57:41 AM

What about the cost of maintaining the deception?  Are you suggesting that no one will catch on that they are being deceived, especially when there are other companies working on private space flight as well?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_manned_spacecraft#Commercial

Anyone who catches on will be dealt with by the Conspiracy. It is likely these other companies are trying to replicate Virgin's simulator technology.

Not really.  Other companies are working on different types of space craft so the "simulators" would need to use different technologies.

Perhaps I understated the nauseating effects. Nevertheless, pop psychology will avert suspicions. Moreover, assuming this 'vestibular system' is not just a Conspiracy fabrication, it is likely that Virgin will desensitise it to some extent using g-force training.

You're doing it again. Stop replying to only parts of my post to make it seem like you're winning.

Also, doing what you propose would cause the person to have a stroke because of extra pressure that can't be relieved. There is of course also the fact that blocking the veins will only increase the pressure in your head, since the veins take away blood from the head. The arteries that bring blood to the head don't run close to the skin, and pressing hard enough against them to relieve the extra pressure would choke the suject to death.

Edit: Damnit, I did it again. I'm arguing with a denialist, who can't be argued with. *hits self*

Instead, let me ask the question,

Is there any way at all that you can imagine that I can, via text and this forum, convince you that you are wrong?

Also, doing what you propose would cause the person to have a stroke because of extra pressure that can't be relieved. There is of course also the fact that blocking the veins will only increase the pressure in your head, since the veins take away blood from the head. The arteries that bring blood to the head don't run close to the skin, and pressing hard enough against them to relieve the extra pressure would choke the suject to death.

it is likely that Virgin will desensitise it to some extent using g-force training.

Edit: Damnit, I did it again. I'm arguing with a denialist, who can't be argued with. *hits self*

Instead, let me ask the question,

Is there any way at all that you can imagine that I can, via text and this forum, convince you that you are wrong?

May I point out that I could level the same allegations in return. If I ask you the same question, you will find yourself unable to pass your own mile-high standard of 'denialism'.

Not really.  Other companies are working on different types of space craft so the "simulators" would need to use different technologies.

Are you implying the appearance of the craft makes any difference to the technology inside?

Watching this thread progress from another perspective, it was pretty hard to read without feeling the temptation to bash myself.

RE: Since none of you believe the shape of the Earth, you can all see it for yourselves through this commercial shuttle.
FE: Preposterous! This is against our beliefs! It must be wrong.
RE: You're ridiculous.
FE: I could say you're ridiculous too.

Seriously now, this should have ended at the second line in my dramatization. It should be the Flat Earthers that ought to open their minds.

High windspeeds do not provide the same stomach-in-throat experience that falling does.  Primarily, because the wind cannot interact with your organs, while gravity still can.  In a wind tunnel, your organs are being supported by your bones and muscles, which are being supported by the suit, being supported by the air.  In freefall, you're bones and muscles are falling and can't support anything, so your organs will feel as if they're "trying to fly away."  Think of it like an elevator that starts moving downward, or stops moving upward, but really extreme.  That is zero g.  If any one of the $200,000 paying passengers has any knowledge of basic physics, then the conspiracy would be exposed by that one simple analogy when s/he realizes s/he doesn't feel like s/he's falling and explains it to the other 5 passengers.

May I point out that I could level the same allegations in return. If I ask you the same question, you will find yourself unable to pass your own mile-high standard of 'denialism'.

Yes, if you could provide documented evidence that they're faking it (from several un-biased sources of course) I'd be convinced, or even if you can think of a system to fake zero-gee that would actually work, you'd have convinced me it was at least a remote possible. Thing is, you haven't provided any of these.

I also notice that you didn't answer my question. Try again.

High windspeeds do not provide the same stomach-in-throat experience that falling does.  Primarily, because the wind cannot interact with your organs, while gravity still can.  In a wind tunnel, your organs are being supported by your bones and muscles, which are being supported by the suit, being supported by the air.  In freefall, you're bones and muscles are falling and can't support anything, so your organs will feel as if they're "trying to fly away."  Think of it like an elevator that starts moving downward, or stops moving upward, but really extreme.  That is zero g.  If any one of the $200,000 paying passengers has any knowledge of basic physics, then the conspiracy would be exposed by that one simple analogy when s/he realizes s/he doesn't feel like s/he's falling and explains it to the other 5 passengers.

That's exactly what I'm trying to say

Are you implying the appearance of the craft makes any difference to the technology inside?

Yes.  Form follows function.

This looks like a

VIRGIN GALACTIC VICTORY!!!




assuming their vehicle doesn't crash.

High windspeeds do not provide the same stomach-in-throat experience that falling does.  Primarily, because the wind cannot interact with your organs, while gravity still can.  In a wind tunnel, your organs are being supported by your bones and muscles, which are being supported by the suit, being supported by the air.  In freefall, you're bones and muscles are falling and can't support anything, so your organs will feel as if they're "trying to fly away."  Think of it like an elevator that starts moving downward, or stops moving upward, but really extreme.  That is zero g.  If any one of the $200,000 paying passengers has any knowledge of basic physics, then the conspiracy would be exposed by that one simple analogy when s/he realizes s/he doesn't feel like s/he's falling and explains it to the other 5 passengers.

Again, having never experienced real zero gravity, the passengers will be none the wiser. This difference should go unnoticed, and even if not, the Virgin crew will be prepared with 'reasons' for any unexpected sensation. Examples may include 'the mind playing tricks on itself' and 'gravity sickness'.

Quote from: fluffycornsnake on January 27, 2011, 10:09:07 AM

Are you implying the appearance of the craft makes any difference to the technology inside?

Yes.  Form follows function.

No. The form is just a replaceable outer shell, which fits into the machine.

Quote from: Nolhekh on January 27, 2011, 12:11:39 PM

High windspeeds do not provide the same stomach-in-throat experience that falling does.  Primarily, because the wind cannot interact with your organs, while gravity still can.  In a wind tunnel, your organs are being supported by your bones and muscles, which are being supported by the suit, being supported by the air.  In freefall, you're bones and muscles are falling and can't support anything, so your organs will feel as if they're "trying to fly away."  Think of it like an elevator that starts moving downward, or stops moving upward, but really extreme.  That is zero g.  If any one of the $200,000 paying passengers has any knowledge of basic physics, then the conspiracy would be exposed by that one simple analogy when s/he realizes s/he doesn't feel like s/he's falling and explains it to the other 5 passengers.

Again, having never experienced real zero gravity, the passengers will be none the wiser.

I would notice the difference.  Anyone who's been on those zero g training airplanes would notice.  And anyone with any knowledge of orbital physics would notice and would be highly skeptical towards the "explanations."  The elevator explanation still works even without having experienced full weightlessness.

If suspicions persist then the Conspiracy will have to intervene. Alhough another possibility has ocurred to me in the use of drugs to alter the sensations felt.

If suspicions persist then the Conspiracy will have to intervene. Alhough another possibility has ocurred to me in the use of drugs to alter the sensations felt.

Why would the conspiracy need to intervene when the flight is perfectly possible within Flat Earth physics?  Why should they care if Virgin makes fools of themselves.  A faked space flight doesn't prove the earth is flat.
Anyone with any pharmaceutical experience would notice the suspicious drugs.  If not the drugs, they may recognize the effects later on.

Why would the conspiracy need to intervene when the flight is perfectly possible within Flat Earth physics?  Why should they care if Virgin makes fools of themselves.  A faked space flight doesn't prove the earth is flat.

Not to mention if Virgin Galactic goes under due to fraud, the conspiracy won't have to worry about Virgin Galactic failing to fake orbital flight down the road.

Why would the conspiracy need to intervene when the flight is perfectly possible within Flat Earth physics?  Why should they care if Virgin makes fools of themselves.  A faked space flight doesn't prove the earth is flat.

But of course the discovery of a hoax would arouse suspicion. If the Earth were round there would be no need of a hoax. I am not convinced such a flight would be theoretically possible. It certainly would not be feasible, at any rate.

Anyone with any pharmaceutical experience would notice the suspicious drugs.  If not the drugs, they may recognize the effects later on.

By 'pharmaceutical experience' do you mean experienced drug users?

Quote from: Nolhekh on February 06, 2011, 03:58:47 PM

Why would the conspiracy need to intervene when the flight is perfectly possible within Flat Earth physics?  Why should they care if Virgin makes fools of themselves.  A faked space flight doesn't prove the earth is flat.

But of course the discovery of a hoax would arouse suspicion. If the Earth were round there would be no need of a hoax. I am not convinced such a flight would be theoretically possible. It certainly would not be feasible, at any rate.

Why would it not be feasible?  the requirements for the effect desired are identical for both round earth and flat earth.  You rocket above the atmosphere, then fall back into it.  What's so unfeasable about that?

Quote from: Nolhekh on February 06, 2011, 03:58:47 PM

Anyone with any pharmaceutical experience would notice the suspicious drugs.  If not the drugs, they may recognize the effects later on.

By 'pharmaceutical experience' do you mean experienced drug users?

No.  Experience in the pharmaceutical industry.  Experienced drug makers.

Again, having never experienced real zero gravity, the passengers will be none the wiser. 

This is not a safe assumption to make.

No. The form is just a replaceable outer shell, which fits into the machine.

You've never studied aircraft design, have you?  Form absolutely follows function when the form is integral to the function.  Remember that Spaceship Two must be able to fly within the atmosphere.