The evolution thread

It seems incomprehensible for us to imagine something coming from nothing, yet almost equally incomprehensible for us to imagine something that has no beginning.  Yet even if we conclude that "something" has always been, that doesn't answer the fundamental question that's at the heart of consciousness itself: "Why?"

The answer is :Because!

For there to be a "Why", implies an active agent which only acts with a reason.  If there is not active agent, or the agent acts without reason, then there need not be a "Why".  Phliosophy and Religion look at Why, Science looks more at "How".

The answer is :Because!

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

God used Evolution to create the universe. The big bang was a result of Gods almighty power. The thousands of years between the creation and the flood many species died and went under the sand and made a new layer of earth for your fossils to be layed on. Repeat the process several times and you get your layers of fossils that are appariently millions of years old. Tch, Talae...
Just your friendly neighborhood trustworthy alien, giving you the facts here. *smiles*

Just your friendly neighborhood trustworthy alien, giving you the facts here.

Surely, being part of an advanced alien race, you can prove that those are facts, right?

This topic is in the wrong forum.  Evolution isn't "alternative science" - there is, in fact, more documented evidence supporting evolution than there is supporting gravity.  Evolution is real, regardless of what people think.

There clearly was no intelligent designer of the universe.  Not only is there no evidence to suggest that that was the case, but life on Earth is clearly not perfect.  Life has evolved and adapted, not designed in a way that it would be perfect.  For example, why is it that Koala's that spend most of their lives in trees, have pouches that open facing down?  Doesn't that make it much easier for the babies to fall out, and onto the ground, dying?  What possible reason would God have decided to make Koalas like that?  Doesn't it make more sense that they, as their DNA evidence demonstrates, evolved from a wombat like creature - something that dug through the ground and so needed a pouch that faced away from the direction it was throwing dirt?

There clearly was no intelligent designer of the universe.  Not only is there no evidence to suggest that that was the case, but life on Earth is clearly not perfect.

The failure of man to protect itself from sin, and in effect, sinning himself, caused the degradation of creation. Its like adding sand to water. You get mud. -_-

As for mastercheifs quetsion, I said earlier, Im not even supposed to be telling you all this enlightenment. You really think I would be allowed to give you proof?

The failure of man to protect itself from sin, and in effect, sinning himself, caused the degradation of creation. Its like adding sand to water. You get mud. -_-

I wasn't talking about how we behave and the fact that there is war and all that shit, I was talking about from a biological sense.  Our bodies are not perfect.  For example, why do men have nipples?  Why do we have appendixes?  The DNA evidence and our knowledge of evolution shows us why, and they also show us that we are far from physically perfect, but rather our bodies have adapted to the environment based on what they already had, rather than aiming to reach a particular model.

Ever thought that degredation via sin was devolution? You WERE perfect. Thats what I am saying. Those parts could be a remnant from what you once were as close to being like the angels. You were told you were formed in the image of god, but sin took you away from being perfect like that. You dont know about gods anatomy, do you? *snickers*

What observational evidence do you have to show that what you're saying isn't a load of bullshit?

The failure of man to protect itself from sin, and in effect, sinning himself, caused the degradation of creation. Its like adding sand to water. You get mud. -_-

Ummm...No.  Mix Sand and Water and you get wet sand.  You need loam, soil, maybe clay, to make mud.  Sand is a silicate and does not disole easily, nor bind well with other compounds.

Ever thought that degredation via sin was devolution? You WERE perfect. Thats what I am saying. Those parts could be a remnant from what you once were as close to being like the angels. You were told you were formed in the image of god, but sin took you away from being perfect like that. You dont know about gods anatomy, do you? *snickers*

And the fossil evidence of these perfect proto humans is where?

so far the deeper in geological layers we go, the more animalistic the traits of the homids.  So are we becoming more God like, now?  I can't see that we have turned further from what you call sin.

Using your logic, shouldn't a truly virtous person be more genetically perfect than a heathen like me?

As for the divine anatomy, I see it everyday, I hear it's voice in the wind, and it constantly hold me in it's loving embrace.  To know it all is beyond humanity, but to experience this little fleck of it, that we call Earth is in itself overwhelming.

The failure of man to protect itself from sin, and in effect, sinning himself, caused the degradation of creation. Its like adding sand to water. You get mud. -_-

Nothing protects God from sin, and he very well can sin if he feels like it--and does.The God of the Old Testament is very conceited, full of contempt, and angry.  Sounds like Pride, Jealousy, and Wrath to me.  I'm sure you can find Sloth and Greed in there somewhere too.

The failure of man to protect itself from sin, and in effect, sinning himself, caused the degradation of creation.

So, koalas' pouches got turned upside-down because humans are bad?  Your god's Creation seems pretty unstable; he must be the wimpiest god ever.

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Duh.  A creationist would say that there is, and probably point you to the polonium halos website.

Not sure if you're serious or not, but Polonium Halos have been completely discredited.  I would guess the wikipedia has some good info on them.  Scientists who believe the creation story aren't actually scientists.  So not evidence at all.

Also regarding eyes, it should also be said that some animals have much better eyes than humans have.  It's not like all animals have the same eyes.

Not sure if you're serious or not,

If you interpret my statement literally, then you should be comfortable believing that I was serious without it effecting any prejudice you have about my world view.

seriously? are we still having this conversation? are you guys really letting creationsts pull you into a game of wordplay?

Creationists cannot offer much in the way of answers, only criticisms of evolution and cosmology, almost all of which are based on a lack of understanding or misunderstanding of science.

The Big Bang is theorized to of happened because using Einstein's General Theory of Relativity and putting time in reverse, about 13.7 billion years ago everything must of been converged within a singularity. Well, it could turn out new advances in physics allow everything to converge without there being a singularity, but for the time being that is the current hypothesis.

Do creationists have a better theory that works so beautifully with observations to explain the proverbial "birth" of the universe? Of course not.

I'm seeing lots of people say ridiculous comments like "well something can't come from nothing!" and stuff like that. First of all, what sense are you talking in? Perhaps it is your lack of the ability to grasp the physics of the universe and spacetime. It doesn't make sense to make comments like this as there is nowhere in space that contains "nothing." Quantum fluctuations allow for the spontaneous creation of particle/anti-particle pairs and field fluctuations in space, anywhere. Seemingly empty space is filled with fluctuations of matter and fields coming and going. This has been theorized mathematically by Quantum theory almost since it's inception and has been shown by experiment and observation to be the case time and time again(see the two plates experiment and black hole radiation).
The Big Bang was not an "explosion", it was a rapid expansion of spacetime. I have gone into details the phases which took place after the big bang in other posts, but the primary things to remember are:

1. A rapid expansion of spacetime from a point with low/no entropy or a singularity
2. The universe cools enough to allow colliding photons to produce different forms of matter
3. Matter collects and condenses thanks to the effects of gravity
4. First galaxies and stars form, then eventually planets


This is where Evolution starts to take over, which is another theory that creationists love to bash, thinking they know better. Really most of their arguments stem from the same source as with the big bang, their complete ignorance of real science, and are easily disregarded by anyone with an iota of intelligence.

Everyone here seems to equate "creationism" with "young-earth creationism". Do people take issue with creationism in general, or is it specifically those creationists who deny evolution etc.?

There is no evidence to support any kind of belief that the world was created by a supernatural being.  In fact, if the world is 13.7 billion years old, as the science strongly shows, it seems clear that the book of Genesis is false.  If that is the case, then when Jesus said that every word of the Old Testament was true, he was wrong.  If that is the case, what else was he wrong about?

There is practcally no evidence at all about the exact circumstances surrounding the origin of the Universe, so people who claim it was created by a god should be free to believe that without being hampered by accusations of contradicting science.

Put more concisely, absence of proof is not proof of absence.

edit: Whether intentionally or not, your words are equating the claims of creationists in general with the claims of Christians. I am Jewish by birth, if not by faith, and take issue with this. Many Jews advocate a liberal interpretation of Genesis and still beieve in a Creator. Ridiculing a literal interpretation of Genesis does not ridicule the notion of a Creator.

Put more concisely, absence of proof is not proof of absence.

Absolutely. But simply because something is not proven false doesn't make it reasonable to believe it's true. Is it reasonable to believe the Flying Spaghetti Monster is real? It hasn't been disproven, and in fact can't be.

I am one of those people who often finds myself thinking down a certain pathway, giving the idea some serious chew time, only to discover that someone far more important than I am in the scheme of our species has coined a term for it, and in fact has produced (directly or not) an entire school of thought on the topic.

In reading this particular forum thread, I was thinking about evolution in regards to EVERYTHING, not merely organic life. You know, storms (like snow storms, etc) and how they "evolve". Or how a set of ideas or a single idea itself can manifest "evolution" over time.

I am curious if that falls under the umbrellas of "evolution" or, like folklore, which is a tale that "evolves" as it is passed down, or if such a thing has it's own niche thought pools.

Personally, I view everything in existence, then, as something that is evolving, be it as a singularity of an event or thing, or as a whole.

Meh. My head hurts.

Totally, you need to read more Dawkins.  Ideas and thoughts evolve and are subject to natural selection.  Our universe has definitely evolved - from clouds of hydrogen, to suns, to planets, to life etc.  Cars evolve, technology evolves.  The laws of evolution are so simple that we can see it anywhere where there is some level of competition or force.  You could argue that storms evolve since they adapt to their environment. 

I have a question which has most likely been answered previously.

Since "God" (the Christian one) is perfect and created man in his image, why do humans have appendices? An organ with no current use or purpose and has a tendency to rupture and require a painful surgery? Why?

And why do whales have pelvises if God made everything exactly the way it should be?

To test your faith, obviously. 

Totally, you need to read more Dawkins.  Ideas and thoughts evolve and are subject to natural selection.  Our universe has definitely evolved - from clouds of hydrogen, to suns, to planets, to life etc.  Cars evolve, technology evolves.  The laws of evolution are so simple that we can see it anywhere where there is some level of competition or force.  You could argue that storms evolve since they adapt to their environment. 

Dawkins? Thanks for the heads up