The evolution thread

Interesting evolution talk.  Here are my thoughts though:

Creation was over on day 6 and by the end of the day "every thing he had made, was very good"; now, if devil whould have been created evil, I don't think "every thing" would have been very good.

I strongly disagree with this view.  Although you're right in that Genesis says "everything...was very good," that doesn't change the fact that God created Satan evil.  "Good" as you seem to be describing it is a function of what you claim to be good, and not what God claims to be good.  Could it be that the God described in the Bible has some sort of "plan" and created Satan evil to carry out his plan?  I would think so.

Otherwise I assume you're arguing that Satan himself created his own evil.  This is simply not true.  I ask you this: "If God created only good things in the world, how did evil come about?"  It seems necessary to admit that according to the Bible, God is the only creator.  Are you implying that God creates good and not evil?

I form the light, and create darkness:  I make peace, and create evil:  I the LORD do all these things.

God, according to the Bible, is the creator of all things, good and evil.  It seems necessary to conclude that he created Satan evil.

where does it say that Satan screwed up?  where does it say the Satan ever did anything he was not told to do by God?

It's right there in the name, "Satan".  It means "enemy".  If Satan only did what God wanted, then he could hardly be counted as an enemy.

Then again you could also interpret Satan as the "adversary" whom God put in place to test Man.

Satan was cast out, but where does it say why?

Well, if you believe Satan is the serpent in the Garden, then Genesis 3:14 has your answer:

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle ...

Anyway it's not clear to me where in the Bible it even says that Satan was cast out.

Hitler was obviously very authoritarian and yet facism is ideologically completely opposed to socialism - you would put those at opposite ends of the left/right scale.  Both USSR socialism and Nazi Facism were very authoritarian which is why they appear to be very similar.

Nazi stands for National Socialist political party, which Hitler founded and was a member of.

Are you saying that the Nazi party were socialists?  Do you know what Hitler did to communists?  Do you know how he felt about them?  Do you know what his policies were?

Just because their party named contained the word 'socialist' it doesn't make them socialst.

In Australia our major conservative party is called the "Liberal" party but they could not possibly be confused with liberals.

I disagree. We were created with free will in the first place. So was devil. He was the first one who figured out that he can disobey God.

If we were created without the knowledge of Good and Evil, then we did not have free will to choose between them.

That is the whole point of the forbidden fruit, the irony is that by choosing to do what was forbidden, mankind exercised free will so he had no need to eat of the fruit because he already had the knowlege...

A case of the bible contradicting itself.

Then again it also says that snakes eat dirt.  Biology isn't it's strong point.

Sorry to break this to you, but your version of The Bible is expurgated.

Here's an interesting thought: A committee of men corrupted God's word, editing The Bible in a way to encourage people taking it literally, as opposed to a collection of allegories as well as (mostly) true stories of Devine Intervention. This has caused Christianity to foster more and more extreme denominations and believers the more science and society evolve and form ideas and discover facts that contradict what they've been mislead to believe as fact, and thus become more hateful and judgmental and discriminatory and selfish and intolerant and many other things that go against the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Yet God did nothing to stop this. God let men corrupt His Inspired Word to manipulate and control people. Men found a loophole in the whole "God is infallible" thing.

I don't share your belief and your assumptions. You assume Bible is "a collection of allegories as well as (mostly) true stories of Devine Intervention". I disagree.

Only interpritations of the bible were used to manipulate and control people, not the Bible itself. I use King James version and my version doesn't call me to hate, judge, or discriminate. The word is preserved and it is in the Bible.

And God did nothing to stop this you say, why should he? he gave us free will to do whatever we want

 I ask you this: "If God created only good things in the world, how did evil come about?"  It seems necessary to admit that according to the Bible, God is the only creator.  Are you implying that God creates good and not evil?

God created people with lots of abilities, among which there was free will, to do good or evil. By making laws and guidelines for people, God outlined what is good and what is evil. So in a way he created evil by defining good. BUT to do evil things came from person's ability to choose.

God knew what good and evil was, so did angels, so did people, everyone has ability to choose their own path, if you chose evil path it is your fault and yours alone. What you doing now is blaming God for creating evil path whereas it was you who chose to walk it. I don't mean you personally.

God created people with lots of abilities, among which there was free will, to do good or evil. By making laws and guidelines for people, God outlined what is good and what is evil. So in a way he created evil by defining good. BUT to do evil things came from person's ability to choose.

God created the evil that exists in the world.  That you can be sure of by reading the Bible.  What you're saying is that God created the evil, but man chose the evil.  You might be right... if you believe in free-will.  But maybe the Bible tells us that we are predestined to become what we will become.  If this is the case, then we obviously don't have free will to become what we are to become.  So I guess what it comes down to is, do you believe that the Bible says we're predestined?  Do you believe that the Bible says that a man's steps (choices) are his own?

I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps.

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.  In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will...

The word is preserved and it is in the Bible.

When you get some time you might want to read up on early Christian history, especially the early ecumenical councils, the origins of Pauline Christianity, the apocrypha, and the Church's dealings with heresy.  Turns out the "preserved word" was hand-picked by the particular group of Christians whose establishment is the basis for the modern Church -- very different from the earliest form of the religion.

Your scriptures are unsound.

God knew what good and evil was, so did angels, so did people, everyone has ability to choose their own path, if you chose evil path it is your fault and yours alone. What you doing now is blaming God for creating evil path whereas it was you who chose to walk it. I don't mean you personally.

But the Bible says in Lamentations 3:37-38:
"Who has commanded and it came to pass, unless the Lord has ordained it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?"

You want Satan to be humanities Judas-Goat, it's all his fault that we are tempted to evil.

If I leave a loaded gun on my table and my child shoots someone with it, I am the on who should be blamed.  I was the greater power and authority, and I failed my child.

Why is God blameless if He created temptation and his children were tempted?  At least Pandora's box was intended to be a punishment, the Gods gave it to the humans with instructions not to open it (sound familiar?  Eat of any fruit but the fruit of the trees of Knowledge and the tree of Life?)   But the intention was that it would be opened and the pestilences released.  By creating the trees, and placing them in the middle of the garden, God set up man to fail.

Of course here is another contradiction in the Bible.
What was the punishment for eating "The Apple"?  

They were cast out of Eden and exposed to sickness and Death.

Why weren't they supposed to Eat of the tree of Life?

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So death was in the plan from the beginning, life was not meant to be eternal.


Oh and While I'm in Genesis,

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely [5] die.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil

So who tells the truth, and who lied?

Give you a hint:

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

And I thought lying was a sin.

God created the evil that exists in the world.  That you can be sure of by reading the Bible.  What you're saying is that God created the evil, but man chose the evil.  You might be right... if you believe in free-will.  But maybe the Bible tells us that we are predestined to become what we will become.  If this is the case, then we obviously don't have free will to become what we are to become.  So I guess what it comes down to is, do you believe that the Bible says we're predestined?  Do you believe that the Bible says that a man's steps (choices) are his own?

God may have a plan for people, like Moses and Noah, but it is people who choose to follow that plan. Even Jesus had a choice to avoid crusifiction multiple times, but he chose to go thru with it, because it was God's plan, not destiny. So, no I don't believe in destiny

Quote from: "Zanzibar"

The word is preserved and it is in the Bible.

When you get some time you might want to read up on early Christian history, especially the early ecumenical councils, the origins of Pauline Christianity, the apocrypha, and the Church's dealings with heresy.  Turns out the "preserved word" was hand-picked by the particular group of Christians whose establishment is the basis for the modern Church -- very different from the earliest form of the religion.

Your scriptures are unsound.

I am familiar with that event. You assume that books that didn't make it to the modern Bible had correct veiws on the religion. Bible talks about pseudo-profits that talk like they are from God, but in fact they are from the enemy. I believe that counsil hand-picked correct books to represent religion, and it was done under God's supervision.

God may have a plan for people, like Moses and Noah, but it is people who choose to follow that plan...So, no I don't believe in destiny

How do you explain the two passages that I mentioned that say that man doesn't direct his own steps (his choices are not his own) and that we are predestined to either become believers or non-believers.  That word, "predestined," is used to assert "destiny" in the Bible yet you deny it.  Do you simply deny certain parts of the Bible and believe others?

But the Bible says in Lamentations 3:37-38:
"Who has commanded and it came to pass, unless the Lord has ordained it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?"

You want Satan to be humanities Judas-Goat, it's all his fault that we are tempted to evil.

If I leave a loaded gun on my table and my child shoots someone with it, I am the on who should be blamed.  I was the greater power and authority, and I failed my child.

Why is God blameless if He created temptation and his children were tempted?  At least Pandora's box was intended to be a punishment, the Gods gave it to the humans with instructions not to open it (sound familiar?  Eat of any fruit but the fruit of the trees of Knowledge and the tree of Life?)   But the intention was that it would be opened and the pestilences released.  By creating the trees, and placing them in the middle of the garden, God set up man to fail.

Of course here is another contradiction in the Bible.
What was the punishment for eating "The Apple"?  

They were cast out of Eden and exposed to sickness and Death.

Why weren't they supposed to Eat of the tree of Life?

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So death was in the plan from the beginning, life was not meant to be eternal.

If you want to blame God for your faulires, why not blame him for creating you? After all if he would not have created you nothing would have happened to you, is it not?

I already explained my position on free-will. what kind of a life it would be if all your desisions are made for you and all temptations are removed from your reach? I think such insitutions are called prisons.

Death resulted in men's disobidience and was not ment from the beginning. Tree of life was put in Eden to create a choice between good with eternal life and evil with death. It's a simple matter of choice.

Oh and While I'm in Genesis,

Quote from: "God"

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely [5] die.

Quote from: "Satan"

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil

So who tells the truth, and who lied?

Give you a hint:

Quote from: "God"

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

And I thought lying was a sin.

Keep reading
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

God restricted access to tree of life, so that man would not eat from it anymore and live forever. "and eat, and live for ever" means that you have to keep eating to keep living.

So to answer your question - devil was the liar, because Adam and Eve died, as God said they would, if they eat of the tree.

I don't share your belief and your assumptions. You assume Bible is "a collection of allegories as well as (mostly) true stories of Devine Intervention". I disagree.

Only interpritations of the bible were used to manipulate and control people, not the Bible itself.

You'd be wrong to disagree. I have facts and evidence to support my position. But good on you for not being a beligerant asshole about your beliefs.

Do some more research about the ways in which The Bible was edited. It was edited in order for it to be interpreted literally, they took out passages that were, at the time, too hard to swallow... like the Book of Enoch, which actually survived in other versions of The Bible for quite a while.

Also, God's Word is the single most important element in those religions. Allowing men to misinterpret it by exercising free will is one thing, but allowing the Word itself to be corrupted? Do you think God would sit back and do nothing if Jesus' scribes wrote that he preached intolerance and religious extremism?

My point being that due to man's manipulation of God's word, more and more believers have shifted almost all of their focus into defending the literal interpretation and OT Bible thumping and fighting with the science that is proving their interpretation to be false and choosing to remain ignorant rather than follow Jesus' teachings and seeking enlightenment.

Besides, the non-literal Bible God is much more powerful and awe-inspiring than the literal one.

You assume that books that didn't make it to the modern Bible had correct veiws on the religion.

I assume nothing except the infallibility of Man and his openness to motivations other than the desire to do God's will.  If the Bible has been corrupted, then you'd never know, would you?

I believe that counsil hand-picked correct books to represent religion, and it was done under God's supervision.

Why do you believe that?

Whereas your faith in the Bible depends on your trust in events that happened thousands of years ago, one's trust in science can be reaffirmed whenever necessary.

My point being that due to man's manipulation of God's word, more and more believers have shifted almost all of their focus into defending the literal interpretation and OT Bible thumping and fighting with the science that is proving their interpretation to be false and choosing to remain ignorant rather than follow Jesus' teachings and seeking enlightenment.

I don't think Bible literalists are ignorant, they know full well what evolutionary science is made out of and how it works (otherwise they wouldn't have the ability to debate the subject), but what they also realize is that the assumptions evolution makes can be wrong. And they indeed, as probable as they are, can in fact be wrong, after all that's why they are called "assumptions". Evolutionists, in their turn, are convinced that assumptions of the Bible are wrong.

So finally, evolution vs creation debate is no more than debate between who’s assumptions are correct, and since they both are unprovable, it is a simple argument between two faiths.

however creationism has lots more going for it

You contradict yourself.
The tree of life was created before original sin.

You say:

Death resulted in men's disobidience and was not ment from the beginning. Tree of life was put in Eden to create a choice between good with eternal life and evil with death. It's a simple matter of choice.

So death did not exist before original sin

Yet you also say:

God restricted access to tree of life, so that man would not eat from it anymore and live forever. "and eat, and live for ever" means that you have to keep eating to keep living.

But

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So God is saying that if they eat of the tree of life they will live forever.

So death existed before original sin

And God did not say if you eat of the tree of knowlege you will die some day, he said:

thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

As for blaming God, why should I.  The one you refer to as "God" has no special appeal to me.  I believe in Divinity, but Jehova is just a fragment of it.

I don't think Bible literalists are ignorant, they know full well what evolutionary science is made out of and how it works (otherwise they wouldn't have the ability to debate the subject),

They aren't able, and don't, debate the subject.  Partially, that's because they don't understand it.

but what they also realize is that the assumptions evolution makes can be wrong. And they indeed, as probable as they are, can in fact be wrong, after all that's why they are called "assumptions". Evolutionists, in their turn, are convinced that assumptions of the Bible are wrong.

Creationists are (not might be, are) wrong in thinking that those two sets of assumptions are the same kind of assumptions, and in thinking that the ways in which they can be wrong are anyhow similar.  They're not the same things, at all.  Yes, the assumptions behind all of science might be wrong, but the assumptions behind the Bible are pretty much guaranteed to be wrong.

it is a simple argument between two faiths.

Yeah, that's where the wrongness comes in.  This line of "reasoning" makes me hopeful for the future, in fact, because it's really the last ditch effort of creationism to denigrate science by resorting to "compromise".  You know one side of a debate is losing because it starts up with crap like, "Well, we're all entitled to our opinion," or "We just have to agree to disagree," or "There's no reason to say that either of us is right."  Well sorry, we're not interested in the compromise.

Either we evolved from monkeys, or we're supposed to look like this.

Either way, I'm not impressed.

Quote from: "Zanzibar"

I don't think Bible literalists are ignorant, they know full well what evolutionary science is made out of and how it works (otherwise they wouldn't have the ability to debate the subject),

They aren't able, and don't, debate the subject.  Partially, that's because they don't understand it.

Quote

but what they also realize is that the assumptions evolution makes can be wrong. And they indeed, as probable as they are, can in fact be wrong, after all that's why they are called "assumptions". Evolutionists, in their turn, are convinced that assumptions of the Bible are wrong.

Creationists are (not might be, are) wrong in thinking that those two sets of assumptions are the same kind of assumptions, and in thinking that the ways in which they can be wrong are anyhow similar.  They're not the same things, at all.  Yes, the assumptions behind all of science might be wrong, but the assumptions behind the Bible are pretty much guaranteed to be wrong.

Quote

it is a simple argument between two faiths.

Yeah, that's where the wrongness comes in.  This line of "reasoning" makes me hopeful for the future, in fact, because it's really the last ditch effort of creationism to denigrate science by resorting to "compromise".  You know one side of a debate is losing because it starts up with crap like, "Well, we're all entitled to our opinion," or "We just have to agree to disagree," or "There's no reason to say that either of us is right."  Well sorry, we're not interested in the compromise.

Exactly.

God may have a plan for people, like Moses and Noah, but it is people who choose to follow that plan...So, no I don't believe in destiny

You never replied to my last post.  

How do you explain the two passages that I mentioned that say that man doesn't direct his own steps (his choices are not his own) and that we are predestined to either become believers or non-believers. That word, "predestined," is used to assert "destiny" in the Bible yet you deny it. Do you simply deny certain parts of the Bible and believe others?

Do you deny those two passeges (Jeremiah 10:23 and Ephesians 1:4-6) in the Bible?

however creationism has lots more going for it

Actually, if you think about it, the design is piss-poor (what's with the bilateral symmetry...or just the appendix?).  If our existence is the result of a God's intervention, that God is either incompetent or malign.

TGRR,
Trusts no God that puts an organ in us that exists only to rupture and kill us.

How do you explain the two passages that I mentioned that say that man doesn't direct his own steps (his choices are not his own) and that we are predestined to either become believers or non-believers. That word, "predestined," is used to assert "destiny" in the Bible yet you deny it. Do you simply deny certain parts of the Bible and believe others?

Do you deny those two passeges (Jeremiah 10:23 and Ephesians 1:4-6) in the Bible?

No I don't deny those passages. God does direct ways of man, but not directly, meaning God creates curcumstances in which man is likely to pick the way God wants, and it would seem like destiny.

Remember Moses and burning bush? one of those curcumstances.
Even Jesus had a choice to avoid crusifiction, he even prayed about it:
Mat 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Well sorry, we're not interested in the compromise.

Fine, be wrong then.

When you will find the truth, it will be too late to change your position.

And here is a passage about you people:

2 Peter
3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

As you can see it talks about people who doubt the creator, the flood, even your uniformitarian principal is in here "for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

Think about it.

And here is a passage about you people:
...
Think about it.

Nah, at least in my case your Good book says:
"Suffer not a witch to live", actually since I' male, I'm safe since it uses the term makesofha: mem kaph shin peh heh. The term makesof (without the final heh) would be the masculine

So you only have to kill my wife, not me.

Of course you book also says,

"For a woman I permit not to teach or have authority over a man, but to be in stillness." -1 Timothy 2:12

So you walked out of the classroom when the teacher was female, Right?

No I don't deny those passages. God does direct ways of man, but not directly, meaning God creates curcumstances in which man is likely to pick the way God wants, and it would seem like destiny.

First off, that's not what the passages say.  They don't say "God kinda pressures you into a situation to choose what he wants, but...you still get the chance to do whatever you want anyway."  They say that those true believers are only true believers because they were predestined from the beginning of time to become true believers.  And those non-believers were predestined to not become believers.

By the way, it's interesting that you say that God "directs" but not "directly."  Nice play on words.

Perhaps we can be led to believe that the Bible teaches free will, but in the long run, the future was already predetermined (we were predestined) by God (according to the Bible).  This is one reason I don't believe in the existence of a loving God who created hell.  Either he's not loving, or he didn't create hell.

When you will find the truth, it will be too late to change your position.

What is that, some sort of divine threat?  Signs of desperation from the ID side abound!