Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)

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beast

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Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #60 on: September 10, 2006, 11:37:34 AM »
I've started to believe that we do not have free will - that we just react to our environment.  Of course the way we react is very complicated - our brains are an amazing network of connections and there are literally billions of different combinations of nuerons - which explains our somewhat erratic behaviour (compared to the way non living objects react).

I think the more we learn about neurology, the more the evidence shows that our behaviour is predictable and follows set patterns.  I also think that the evidence physics presents shows that free will is impossible.

But at the same time we obviously have a very strong feeling of free will and is there any difference between thinking you have free will and having free will?  Also I think it's hard to really define what is meant by free will - I could equally claim that we do have free will - it's just that our actions are entirely predictable (if you have enough knowledge and enough time to work out the right equations).

It's like if you asked me to choose a number between 1 and 10 I have complete free will to choose whichever number I want but it should be possible with enough knowledge leading up to that event to predict what number I will choose.

So I guess what I'm saying is that being able to predict what we're going to do doesn't mean we don't have free will - it just means we're also completely predictable.  Of course on a particular level that would mean we don't have free will but we percieve that we do.

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Ubuntu

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Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #61 on: September 10, 2006, 11:55:03 AM »
Quote from: "beast"
It's like if you asked me to choose a number between 1 and 10 I have complete free will to choose whichever number I want but it should be possible with enough knowledge leading up to that event to predict what number I will choose.


I've heard of a study (I cannot confirm its existence) where subjects were asked to randomly move their hand. Using an MRI or some other sort of brain monitor, the experimenters were able to predict each time where the subject was going to move his or her hand.

“If the human mind was simple enough to understand, we'd be too simple to understand it.” - Emerson Pugh

Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #62 on: September 10, 2006, 01:51:40 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Quote from: "beast"
It's like if you asked me to choose a number between 1 and 10 I have complete free will to choose whichever number I want but it should be possible with enough knowledge leading up to that event to predict what number I will choose.


I've heard of a study (I cannot confirm its existence) where subjects were asked to randomly move their hand. Using an MRI or some other sort of brain monitor, the experimenters were able to predict each time where the subject was going to move his or her hand.

“If the human mind was simple enough to understand, we'd be too simple to understand it.” - Emerson Pugh


I have a really really hard time believing that.
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"Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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cadmium_blimp

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Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #63 on: September 10, 2006, 02:13:19 PM »
Any study whose existence can't be confirmed is void.

Quote from: Commander Taggart
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Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #64 on: September 10, 2006, 02:14:54 PM »
Quote from: "cadmium_blimp"
Any study whose existence can't be confirmed is void.


I'll allow leniency for the purpose of only illustrating an idea, but the idea presented is too extreme for me to be lenient about not having the exact study for it.
ttp://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/search.php

"Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #65 on: September 10, 2006, 02:18:42 PM »
Its similar to doing one on God's existence, theres no way to confirm or deny the results.
he man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

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beast

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Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #66 on: September 10, 2006, 08:01:01 PM »
I've read about studies like that as well - I am sure if you google it you can find it.

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Erasmus

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Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #67 on: September 10, 2006, 10:35:56 PM »
Look up anything on Benjamin Libet.  I haven't heard of this particular experiment that Ubuntu mentions, but Libet did an experiment in which participants were asked to press a button at any point -- i.e. whenever they wanted.  They were looking at a clock while they did this, and they (the participants) took note of when the initial intent to press the button took place.

Using an electroencephalogram, Libet found a certain neural potential that always preceeded the time that the participants were first aware of their intent to perform an action, which would indicate that somewhere in the brain an unconscious event occurs that causes all of the conscious features of the action.  In other words, your actions are not really consciously decided upon by your conscious mind.

Check out Wikipedia's article on Libet or do a Google search.  His results are widely-known and, of course, highly controversial.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #68 on: September 11, 2006, 12:45:48 AM »
Ubuntu, while I agree somewhat on your statements about the function of the human mind and it's predictability, you must remember that they are still approximations. They are macroscopic compared to the level that quantum physics describes. At it's base level, the universe and everything in it is blurry and essentially not determinable. It's a fact that many people much more versed in atomic and theoretical physics had to come to terms with upon it's discovery. Like I mentioned before, Einstein refused to accept the randomness aspects of quantum mechanics because he was so convinced that the universe was deterministic. In his later years he all but publicly admitted that he was wrong about the quantum world, even though it's pretty clear that by then he was holding on to his deterministic view of the universe with no scientific evidence(by faith really). So if you want to try and open up this arguement again, just be aware that one of the most intelligent and wise men of the 20th century could not even disprove the randomness on quantum levels.  What makes you think that you can?

Also, that experiment only proves that there is a reaction and then intent to push the button in the frontal lobe, followed by the brain executing the action by signalling the fingers to move. It's well known now that the brain creates a "program" if you will in the frontal lobe before executing an action. If this program is repeated enough, it will be stored so it does not have to be created again from scratch. This is what is commonly referred to as "Muscule Memory." An example from my own life would be when I marched in drum corps and did (i'm not too proud of it now, did it for my girlfriend at the time) colorguard. When I started I was a mess. I couldn't spin the flag right or dance worth a crap. But after daily repetition and repeating the same motions over and over, my brain "saved" these "motor programs" so I could do them without thinking. At the end of the season I was much better. I can still perform much of what I learned with brooms and the like without thinking about it, much like how you never forget how to ride a bike.

For more information on how your brain works and how to improve your brain function, I suggest reading:
Mozart's Brain and the Fighter Pilot: Unleashing Your Brain's Potential By Richard Restak (A neurologist)

Avalible on amazon and of course, audio format.

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Erasmus

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Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #69 on: September 11, 2006, 09:00:13 AM »
Quote from: "troubadour"
that experiment only proves that there is a reaction and then intent to push the button in the frontal lobe, followed by the brain executing the action by signalling the fingers to move.


So we're in agreement then that the experiment shows that that an action that appeared to all parties involved to be a fully conscious one was in fact the result of a spontaneous reaction, a reflex, and thus really there was no "free will" involved in the execution of the action at all.  Good, that's all I was trying to say.
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Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #70 on: September 11, 2006, 02:17:16 PM »
Erasmus, I've always had trouble understanding this experiment.  Is it a necessary conclusion that the free will is nonexistant because scientists can see a process in the brain occurring before you push the button?  Is it a viable solution to suggest that perhaps what scientists are seeing is simply the primary process that goes into an action?  In your example, could it be that scientists could measure a certain chemical/electrical activity in the brain right before the action occurred and be led to conclude that this activity they measured was the internal decision being made to push the button?
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Ubuntu

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Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #71 on: September 11, 2006, 03:58:38 PM »
Quote from: "troubadour"
In his later years he all but publicly admitted that he was wrong about the quantum world, even though it's pretty clear that by then he was holding on to his deterministic view of the universe with no scientific evidence (by faith really).


Can you get me a quote please?

Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #72 on: September 11, 2006, 04:07:45 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Can you get me a quote please?


How many times have we gone through this Ubuntu?  Go back and read those quotes from The Elegant Universe that I already posted on here.  troubadour is right, Einstein was wrong.  If you want me to quote Brian Greene on this matter (again) or Stephen Hawking (again) then I will.  Or you can just go back and read all those quotes that are already in this thread.
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Ubuntu

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« Reply #73 on: September 11, 2006, 05:15:44 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Can you get me a quote please?


How many times have we gone through this Ubuntu?  Go back and read those quotes from The Elegant Universe that I already posted on here.  troubadour is right, Einstein was wrong.  If you want me to quote Brian Greene on this matter (again) or Stephen Hawking (again) then I will.  Or you can just go back and read all those quotes that are already in this thread.


I wanted a quote from Einstein saying this.

On page 17 of the Elegant Universe Green seems to endorse determinism...

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Erasmus

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Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #74 on: September 11, 2006, 05:38:46 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
Erasmus, I've always had trouble understanding this experiment.  Is it a necessary conclusion that the free will is nonexistant because scientists can see a process in the brain occurring before you push the button?  Is it a viable solution to suggest that perhaps what scientists are seeing is simply the primary process that goes into an action?  In your example, could it be that scientists could measure a certain chemical/electrical activity in the brain right before the action occurred and be led to conclude that this activity they measured was the internal decision being made to push the button?


The experiment is indeed a little bit fishy.  Many other researchers have raised objections to the method and I cannot say that I am fully confident that the experiment reveals what Libet says it reveals.

But that aside, let's go back to what we really mean when we talk about free will.  Obviously if everything is predetermined then we would probably come to the conclusion that we don't have free will.  If on the other hand everything is fundamentally random, then I suggest we don't have free will either.  To me, the statement "I have free will" means "My conscious intention to act is the first and uncaused cause of at least some of my actions."

Imagine we had a device for mapping all functions of the brain including consciousness, and a few milliseconds before somebody waves their right hand a light flashes under "conscious intention to wave right hand".  Furthermore imagine that there is no prior neural cause of that conscious intention (suppose we can tell that too).  To me this would be proof of free will.  I would in fact define the will as the set of those uncaused mental causes.

On the other hand, imagine that, a few milliseconds before the "conscious intention to wave right hand" light flashes, a light someplace else in the neural mapper -- someplace outside the "conscious event" area -- flashes, and that this relationship is observed every time somebody waves his hand.  Since this neural event is part of the large-scale basically-deterministic brain, it must have a well-determined cause, which also must have a well-determined cause, etc, forming a chain that could be traced back more than just a few milliseconds.  With enough obvservations, the neural mapper could be used to tell us days in advance that somebody was going to wave their hand -- no free will there.  In other words, an unconscious causal chain leading up to a conscious event does not constitute free will.

To summarize, IMHO, if there are uncaused mental causes, we can call that free will.  If there are no uncaused mental causes, we don't have free will.  To me, Libet's experiment is (supposed to be interpreted as) evidence against the existence of uncaused mental causes.

That's the way I look at it.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #75 on: September 11, 2006, 06:04:14 PM »
I now see what you're saying about the experiment, Erasmus.  I'm just not sure I buy into it.  It could be that the mind is deterministic (if the universe itself is deterministic), but the very fact that we're discussing whether or not a deterministic universe is at play and not allowing free will to exist is too ironic for me.  Wouldn't that be irony?  The deterministic universe causing us to debate over whether or not it's deterministic.  Not having free will over what we say and what we say ends up being a debate about whether or not we have free will.  I'm not so sure about that.  This isn't the only reason, though, just a quick ironic reason.
ooyakasha!

Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #76 on: September 11, 2006, 06:13:17 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
I wanted a quote from Einstein saying this.


Okay.  What do you want us to do?  Find a quote from Einstein that says "I was wrong guys.  Quantum mechanics really is random, based on probability"?  The most convincing evidence that proved him wrong was carried out after his death.

Quote from: "Ubuntu"
On page 17 of the Elegant Universe Green seems to endorse determinism...


It appears to be so, doesn't it?  By means of reductionism he seems to believe in a deterministic universe.  However, there's a difference between the two types of determinism we've been using in this thread.

1) The "determinism" you used was flawed in that you believed in predictable determinism.  Hopefully you've gotten the point already that quantum mechanics is not predictable.

2) The "determinism" that I presented in this thread was a determinism where every action is a result of previous actions (fundamentally on quantum scales).  That is, everything is determined based on what happens when particles interact.

I hope you see the difference between these two types of determinism.  Brian Greene seems to believe in the unpredictable determinism and not the predictable determinism.  He does argue that it is a result of a calculational impasse that we cannot predict a tornado's behavior by means of understanding the nature of small particles.  But later in the book he talks about the "randomness" in quantum mechanics, and it appears that he also believes that.
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Ubuntu

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Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #77 on: September 11, 2006, 06:56:39 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
I wanted a quote from Einstein saying this.


Okay.  What do you want us to do?  Find a quote from Einstein that says "I was wrong guys.  Quantum mechanics really is random, based on probability"?  The most convincing evidence that proved him wrong was carried out after his death.


Exactly. I'm waiting for troubadour to find the quote from Einstein he read.

Quote from: "Knight"
He does argue that it is a result of a calculational impasse that we cannot predict a tornado's behavior by means of understanding the nature of small particles.


Not a human, but a a Demon.

Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #78 on: September 11, 2006, 07:09:06 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Not a human, but a a Demon.


I'm not quite sure what this means.  Hopefully you're implying that it would be possible to understand the inner workings of a tornado if one could calculate all the actions of the particles which follow a set of physical laws.  Just don't forget about the randomness we've been talking about.

As for a quote from Einstein I wasn't aware he claimed to have found a quote.  Maybe he can find one but I sort of doubt it.  I thought he said something along the lines of "Einstein all but publicly admitted that he was wrong."  Let me check:

Quote from: "troubadour"
In his later years he all but publicly admitted that he was wrong about the quantum world


Well, there you have it.  It looks like he's saying that there won't be a quote but I don't know.  I'd say it is likely that Einstein realized his mistake during his lifetime as the evidence kept piling up against him.
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Erasmus

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Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #79 on: September 11, 2006, 07:12:10 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
Wouldn't that be irony?  The deterministic universe causing us to debate over whether or not it's deterministic.  Not having free will over what we say and what we say ends up being a debate


Yeah, it is pretty ironic.  But just like other "odd coincidences" I wouldn't put too much creedence in it: we have all sorts of discussions; one about determinism is bound to show up eventually.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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cadmium_blimp

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Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #80 on: September 11, 2006, 07:17:55 PM »
Does the universe have a will or do the small things just affect the large things very much?

Quote from: Commander Taggart
Never give up, never surrender!

Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #81 on: September 11, 2006, 07:39:03 PM »
So, Erasmus, by your belief in the nonexistence of free will, do you think that any actions should be punishable?  That is, if I rape somebody tonight, it wouldn't really be my fault because some processes happened in my mind before I raped her and thus I wasn't in control of the situation.
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Rick_James

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Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #82 on: September 11, 2006, 07:41:44 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
So, Erasmus, by your belief in the nonexistence of free will, do you think that any actions should be punishable?  That is, if I rape somebody tonight, it wouldn't really be my fault because some processes happened in my mind before I raped her and thus I wasn't in control of the situation.


Certainly there's not enough known about it for that to hold up in court....

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quixotic

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Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #83 on: September 11, 2006, 08:05:36 PM »
awwww i dont know....

that sounds a lot like pleading insanity to me. Which, y the way would ahve to be the biggest cop out EVER!!

who isn't insane when they kill someone, relatively to the "normal" human brain.

Like...O M G ! ! ! He is, like, totally using the gun as like some kind of sexual weapon. O M G ! ! That is like, totally awesome! ! !

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Erasmus

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Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #84 on: September 11, 2006, 10:27:48 PM »
Quote from: "cadmium_blimp"
Does the universe have a will or do the small things just affect the large things very much?


Non capisco.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Erasmus

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Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #85 on: September 11, 2006, 10:31:52 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
So, Erasmus, by your belief in the nonexistence of free will, do you think that any actions should be punishable?  That is, if I rape somebody tonight, it wouldn't really be my fault because some processes happened in my mind before I raped her and thus I wasn't in control of the situation.


Okay so I have a bottled response to this one because I get it a lot.  If you can't be blamed for raping the woman, I can't be blamed for shoving you into a dark, cramped cell and throwing away the key.

More seriously, if you view organisms and societies as processes that have certain properties -- in particular, self-replication and evolution and hence self-preservation -- then destructive behavior of a rogue process will naturally be met with punitive behaviors from the majority of cooperative processes.  It's not right or wrong in some objective sense, but it is in the "best interests" of the majority of the cooperative processes.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #86 on: September 12, 2006, 05:33:05 AM »
I see.  Good point.  But I'm not convinced that you don't believe in free will.  Maybe I'm wrong, though.
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cadmium_blimp

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Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #87 on: September 12, 2006, 08:29:25 AM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "cadmium_blimp"
Does the universe have a will or do the small things just affect the large things very much?


Non capisco.

Translation please?

Quote from: Commander Taggart
Never give up, never surrender!

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Erasmus

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Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #88 on: September 12, 2006, 08:47:26 AM »
Quote from: "cadmium_blimp"
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Non capisco.

Translation please?


I don't understand.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Erasmus

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Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #89 on: September 12, 2006, 08:51:19 AM »
Quote from: "Knight"
I see.  Good point.  But I'm not convinced that you don't believe in free will.  Maybe I'm wrong, though.


I don't beleive in free will as I defined it above (uncaused mental causes).  Daniel Dennett gives another, much less metaphysically satisfying, definition in his book "Freedom Evolves" which is more along the "process behaving in reasonable ways" line as I described in the more recent post, and I adhere to that.

The fact is that even relatively simple deterministic processes can exhibit and extraordinary of complex behavior, even to the point of looking "intentional".  Certainly Deep Blue -- the computer that beat Gary Kasparov in chess -- did not have free will in the uncaused-mental-cause sense, but to an untrained observer who did not know that it was a computer playing it might certainly appear that the player was consciously deciding to make the moves it made.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?