Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)

  • 191 Replies
  • 34717 Views
?

Ubuntu

  • 2392
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« on: August 27, 2006, 08:13:35 PM »
Determinism is the belief that all events are a result of physical interaction between particles, energy, and forces rather than Chaotic (as in entirely random events/values that don't follow any pattern and logic as have no cause) somethings sending the Universe into a storm of craziness.

Here's how I explained it to my friend:

Well if you think about the way things happen... if you put two particles in a vacuum a certain distance apart, you may predict what is going to happen, how they are going to interact (with a margin of error caused by lack of understanding). If we take into account that EVERYTHING, including people's brains, are made out of fundamental particles... if you knew every involved value and factor at any point in time, let's say, the Big Bang, then you could predict exactly what is going to happen in the future (you could predict infinity years ahead... until the end of time so to speak).

That means you could predict exactly what choices people are going to make. The brain works like a machine, taking in information and spitting out responses, like a computer trying to solve a problem. When someone makes a choice, it is impossible that they could have made any other choice.

We must understand that since our brains work like this, you can only imagine it as if you were an Observor standing outside of your body and viewing everything as tiny particles... ACTION = REACTION

?

cadmium_blimp

  • 1499
  • funny, you thought I'd convert, didn't you?
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2006, 08:15:16 PM »
Your point is?

Quote from: Commander Taggart
Never give up, never surrender!

*

dysfunction

  • The Elder Ones
  • 2261
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2006, 08:15:38 PM »
This breaks down past a certain point, because below the electron level things are inherently non-predictable.
the cake is a lie

?

Ubuntu

  • 2392
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2006, 08:17:48 PM »
Quote from: "dysfunction"
This breaks down past a certain point, because below the electron level things are inherently non-predictable.


The particle scenario is just an example. You don't even need to know that particles exist to understand or explain this theory.

ACTION = REACTION :P

*

dysfunction

  • The Elder Ones
  • 2261
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2006, 08:21:23 PM »
No.

The universe is inherently non-deterministic.

What happens at the electron, even the quantum, levels determines what happens at higher levels of structure, and what happens at or below the electron level is not predictable.

That was a nice philosophical argument, but it doesn't work in light of what we know about the way the universe works.
the cake is a lie

?

Ubuntu

  • 2392
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2006, 08:23:04 PM »
Quote from: "dysfunction"
No.

The universe is inherently non-deterministic.

What happens at the electron, even the quantum, levels determines what happens at higher levels of structure, and what happens at or below the electron level is not predictable.

That was a nice philosophical argument, but it doesn't work in light of what we know about the way the universe works.


It doesn't matter if it's not predictable. "Lack of knowledge doesn't change reality." The argument doesn't say *we can* predict everything it says *we could* if we had God-like intelligence.

*

Desu

  • 742
  • yaranaika.
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2006, 08:26:13 PM »

Did somebody say Laplace?
Quote from: sam712
It must suck living in Richmond.
Since June 2006.

?

Ubuntu

  • 2392
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2006, 08:36:14 PM »
Probability = lack of knowledge.

Someone who isn't very good at math might say that 11 x 62 could be anywhere from 100 - 10 000. Someone who doesn't know what "sporadic" means would give its definition an infinite number of possibilities.

"Lack of knowledge doesn't change reality."

*

Desu

  • 742
  • yaranaika.
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2006, 08:48:19 PM »

I thought I heard somebody say Laplace....
Quote from: sam712
It must suck living in Richmond.
Since June 2006.

?

Ubuntu

  • 2392
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2006, 09:03:30 PM »
Lol Desu.

Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2006, 03:45:19 AM »
Ubuntu, determinism works in a classical universe where everything is predictable. But in a quantum universe, the universe we live in, you cannot know both the position and the velocity of any one particle at anytime. Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen made 2 assumptions in 1935 in the EPR paper. One was that we could not predict anymore then probabilities because there was a deeper understanding and some hidden variables we had not found yet. This paper has been used over and over again to show EPR that they were infact incorrect. (The other assumption was of locality, or that a particle over there could not effect a particle far away from it, which they were also wrong about)

There is no hidden variable to particle physics. Things on the quantum scale really are based on probabilities and chance. Things can exist in more then one place at once, and even weirder, you can change what happened in a particles past by affecting it in the present.

Scientific Determinism in this fashion does not work. There is of course, determinism based on the consistant solution of time, which is becoming more and more favored in the scientific community.

?

cadmium_blimp

  • 1499
  • funny, you thought I'd convert, didn't you?
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2006, 05:49:15 AM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Probability = lack of knowledge.

Someone who isn't very good at math might say that 11 x 62 could be anywhere from 100 - 10 000. Someone who doesn't know what "sporadic" means would give its definition an infinite number of possibilities.

"Lack of knowledge doesn't change reality."

Unless your reality is bound by how you percieve it.

Quote from: Commander Taggart
Never give up, never surrender!

*

dysfunction

  • The Elder Ones
  • 2261
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2006, 09:01:24 AM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Probability = lack of knowledge.

Someone who isn't very good at math might say that 11 x 62 could be anywhere from 100 - 10 000. Someone who doesn't know what "sporadic" means would give its definition an infinite number of possibilities.

"Lack of knowledge doesn't change reality."


It's not just that we don't know how to predict these things; it's that they are fundamentally unpredictable. Operation at the quantum level is not-deterministic, but truly random.
the cake is a lie

?

Ubuntu

  • 2392
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2006, 09:22:45 AM »
Quote from: "dysfunction"
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Probability = lack of knowledge.

Someone who isn't very good at math might say that 11 x 62 could be anywhere from 100 - 10 000. Someone who doesn't know what "sporadic" means would give its definition an infinite number of possibilities.

"Lack of knowledge doesn't change reality."


It's not just that we don't know how to predict these things; it's that they are fundamentally unpredictable. Operation at the quantum level is not-deterministic, but truly random.


I dispute this. In order for something to be random, it needs to have no cause, no pattern, and not follow any rules or laws. How can we know the Universe is fundamentally random is we don't even understand it?

I see the idea of Chaos as ridiculous, as by nature it cannot procceed logically, nor procceed at all.

"Lack of knowledge doesn't change reality."

*

dysfunction

  • The Elder Ones
  • 2261
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2006, 09:36:12 AM »
If you want to dispute the findings of quantum theory, go right ahead.
the cake is a lie

?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2006, 11:46:54 AM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
I dispute this. In order for something to be random, it needs to have no cause, no pattern, and not follow any rules or laws.


I claim that you have overconstrained the definition of randomness.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2006, 12:25:56 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Probability = lack of knowledge.

Someone who isn't very good at math might say that 11 x 62 could be anywhere from 100 - 10 000. Someone who doesn't know what "sporadic" means would give its definition an infinite number of possibilities.

"Lack of knowledge doesn't change reality."


But 11 x 62 is not anywhere from 100 - 10,000; it's 682.  It's always 682.  Probability is our reality, Ubuntu.  For all we know, all of our data here on Earth could be a bunch of outliers compared to the norm of the universe; and this, at the moment, seems to be the case as we're the only planet we know of with life.

Probability is the closest you will ever get to knowledge on non-representative terms.
ttp://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/search.php

"Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

?

Ubuntu

  • 2392
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2006, 05:31:27 PM »
Quote from: "dysfunction"
If you want to dispute the findings of quantum theory, go right ahead.


Quantum theory does not say things are fundamentally random, as no one even understands the fundaments of existence.

?

Ubuntu

  • 2392
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2006, 05:37:59 PM »
Quote from: "Mephistopheles"
But 11 x 62 is not anywhere from 100 - 10,000; it's 682.


What is my computer desk made of?

You could answer: metal, wood, or plastic.

And I would say: bamboo.

Your lack of knowledge does not change the reality of my desk. The ancient Egyptians lack of knowledge about molecules does not make them nonexistent.

When someone was trying to refute that events happen in a chain he told me:

"Chaotic events happen on the subatomic level all the time. And once a Chaotic event has occured, its chances of occuring again go up."

If particles are fundamentally random, why do they consistently turn out as particles?

*

Desu

  • 742
  • yaranaika.
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2006, 05:44:27 PM »
I seem to remember hearing/reading somewhere that there's not enough computing power in the Universe for Laplace's Demon, which seems reasonable I guess.
Quote from: sam712
It must suck living in Richmond.
Since June 2006.

?

Ubuntu

  • 2392
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2006, 05:55:10 PM »
Quote from: "Desu"
I seem to remember hearing/reading somewhere that there's not enough computing power in the Universe for Laplace's Demon, which seems reasonable I guess.


"Computing power"? You mean, as in, my Athlon 64 couldn't handle it all? =P

*

Desu

  • 742
  • yaranaika.
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2006, 05:59:11 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Quote from: "Desu"
I seem to remember hearing/reading somewhere that there's not enough computing power in the Universe for Laplace's Demon, which seems reasonable I guess.


"Computing power"? You mean, as in, my Athlon 64 couldn't handle it all? =P


Err... Well, no.
Quote
There has recently been proposed a limit on the computational power of the universe, ie the ability of Laplace's Demon to process an infinite amount of information. The limit is based on the maximum entropy of the universe, the speed of light, and the minimum amount of time taken to move information across the Planck length, and the figure turns out to be 2130 bits. Accordingly, anything that requires more than this amount of data cannot be computed in the amount of time that has lapsed so far in the universe.
Quote from: sam712
It must suck living in Richmond.
Since June 2006.

Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2006, 06:42:05 PM »
Ubuntu,

This is quoted from Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe:

Quote from: "Brian Green"
According to quantum mechanics, the universe evolves according to a rigorous and precise mathematical formalism, but this framework determines only the probability that any particular future will happen--not which future actually ensues.


Quote from: "Brian Greene"
[Einstein believed that] physics should predict how the universe evolves, not merely the likelihood that any particular evolution might occur.  But experiment after experiment--some of the most convincing ones being carried out after his death--convincingly confirm that Einstein was wrong.  As the British theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking has said on this point "Einstein was confused, not the quantum theory."


Read the book.  There's much to learn.
ooyakasha!

?

Ubuntu

  • 2392
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2006, 06:47:43 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
Ubuntu,

This is quoted from Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe:

Quote from: "Brian Green"
According to quantum mechanics, the universe evolves according to a rigorous and precise mathematical formalism, but this framework determines only the probability that any particular future will happen--not which future actually ensues.


Quote from: "Brian Greene"
[Einstein believed that] physics should predict how the universe evolves, not merely the likelihood that any particular evolution might occur.  But experiment after experiment--some of the most convincing ones being carried out after his death--convincingly confirm that Einstein was wrong.  As the British theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking has said on this point "Einstein was confused, not the quantum theory."


Read the book.  There's much to learn.


The experiments were not based on perfect knowledge, so could not have perfect predicitons. "Lack of knowledge doesn't change reality."

*

dysfunction

  • The Elder Ones
  • 2261
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2006, 06:54:00 PM »
No, no, no. The experiments were not, "Hmm, let's try and predict stuff, gee it didn't work, I guess we can't predict the future after all!" Unpredictability is rather a key consequence of modern physics. What happens at or below the electron level is fundamentally random, and therefore the universe is inherently non-deterministic.
the cake is a lie

?

cadmium_blimp

  • 1499
  • funny, you thought I'd convert, didn't you?
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2006, 06:55:58 PM »
If I see an apple on my computer desk and begin to eat it, yet you do not see it and deny that I could have eaten it, who's reality is the true one?  Am I hallucinating, are you hallucinating, or are we both hallucinating?  I don't think reality is as firm as you think it is.

Quote from: Commander Taggart
Never give up, never surrender!

*

Desu

  • 742
  • yaranaika.
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2006, 07:03:01 PM »
Quote from: "cadmium_blimp"
If I see an apple on my computer desk and begin to eat it, yet you do not see it and deny that I could have eaten it, who's reality is the true one?  Am I hallucinating, are you hallucinating, or are we both hallucinating?  I don't think reality is as firm as you think it is.

Your reality is what you define it as.
Quote from: sam712
It must suck living in Richmond.
Since June 2006.

?

Ubuntu

  • 2392
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2006, 07:25:44 PM »
Quote from: "dysfunction"
What happens at or below the electron level is fundamentally random.


How can you make such bold assumptions about things we don't understand? It is infinitely more likely that it is a complex system rather than NO system at all.

?

Ubuntu

  • 2392
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2006, 07:32:34 PM »
Quote from: "cadmium_blimp"
If I see an apple on my computer desk and begin to eat it, yet you do not see it and deny that I could have eaten it, who's reality is the true one?  Am I hallucinating, are you hallucinating, or are we both hallucinating?  I don't think reality is as firm as you think it is.


I am speaking in a materialist, positivist frame of mind; this is the only way we can go any where in this topic. If you would like to deviate, perhaps you should create a new topic.

*

dysfunction

  • The Elder Ones
  • 2261
Causality, Determinism, and Free Will ('Tis an illusion!)
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2006, 07:37:46 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Quote from: "dysfunction"
What happens at or below the electron level is fundamentally random.


How can you make such bold assumptions about things we don't understand? It is infinitely more likely that it is a complex system rather than NO system at all.


I never said there wasn't a system, I simply said that it was random. A random system may be hard to wrap your head around, but so is the rest of quantum theory.
the cake is a lie