Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.

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Zogg

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #690 on: November 07, 2011, 04:55:28 PM »
you can't deal with science
Of course I don't deal with science.

So, FET is not science? At least one point we can agree upon.

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momentia

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #691 on: November 07, 2011, 05:20:00 PM »
you can't deal with science
Of course I don't deal with science. Have you ever even tried to find out what forum you're on? The scientific method is largely questioned here, partially because it clings to pre-defined concepts and is therefore largely susceptible to confirmation bias (case in point: your position in this debate).

Please enlighten us to the difference between "Distances are the same" and "Metrics are the same."
Mathematically speaking of course.
As already mentioned, you're free to contact your local art school if you wish for abstraction.

Also, please point to where my proof of the earth's curvature fails.
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=44906.msg1267253#msg1267253
Then fix this mistake and show that the earth has no curvature.
Your "proof" fails in the matter that it doesn't even begin to verify if the Earth has curvature. It proves that an abstract concept holds true with reference to itself.
The Earth has no curvature because no curvature can be observed in the real world. The art of mathematics doesn't change much about that.

Funny, I like to think of math as an art too. An extraordinarily precise art. See, once you start using mathematical definitions for words, you can't play semantics anymore. Gaussian curvature has a specific definition, and the earth's surface happens to have non-zero gaussian curvature.

A flat surface has no gaussian curvature anywhere.
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/FlatSurface.html

The earth is not a flat surface. Proven on your assumption of consistent distances (which is observable).

If you want to start redefining flat, sure, any surface can be "flat". But then "flat" becomes meaningless.

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #692 on: November 07, 2011, 06:16:05 PM »
See, once you start using mathematical definitions for words, you can't play semantics anymore. Gaussian curvature has a specific definition, and the earth's surface happens to have non-zero gaussian curvature.
Well, I guess I'm lucky I've never made any claims about "Gaussian curvature" then, or else I'd be in trouble, huh?

The earth is not a flat surface. Proven on your assumption of consistent distances (which is observable).
Disproven by the initial assumption that I'm not contesting science here, which I am since the very first word.

If you want to start redefining flat, sure, any surface can be "flat". But then "flat" becomes meaningless.
I'm not re-defining "flat". I'm just not allowing you to re-define curvature as "this one thing from that one abstract model that doesn't relate to reality all that much".
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 06:26:25 PM by PizzaPlanet »
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momentia

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #693 on: November 07, 2011, 08:16:42 PM »
See, once you start using mathematical definitions for words, you can't play semantics anymore. Gaussian curvature has a specific definition, and the earth's surface happens to have non-zero gaussian curvature.
Well, I guess I'm lucky I've never made any claims about "Gaussian curvature" then, or else I'd be in trouble, huh?

The earth is not a flat surface. Proven on your assumption of consistent distances (which is observable).
Disproven by the initial assumption that I'm not contesting science here, which I am since the very first word.

That was a mathematical proof, you are contesting mathematics. Good luck on that one.

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If you want to start redefining flat, sure, any surface can be "flat". But then "flat" becomes meaningless.

I'm not re-defining "flat". I'm just not allowing you to re-define curvature as "this one thing from that one abstract model that doesn't relate to reality all that much".

Actually you are.  And curvature does relate to reality. It accurately predicts the circumferences (they aren't 2πr) and areas (they aren't πR2) of circles of a given radius. (All measurements taken on the surface). It accurately relates the area of triangles on the surface to the sum of their angles (it's not π). And this relates to the intuitive idea of a curved surface. These aren't things that can happen on a flat surface.

So you claim that I am using the wrong definition of curvature? Give me the definition for curvature you are using and then show that it is zero.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 08:18:37 PM by momentia »

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #694 on: November 07, 2011, 09:04:20 PM »
That was a mathematical proof, you are contesting mathematics. Good luck on that one.
It was a mathematical "proof" based on many assumptions. Thank you for the kind wishes, though.

Actually you are.
Actually, I'm not.
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/flat_1

And curvature does relate to reality.
It does indeed!

It accurately predicts the circumferences (they aren't 2πr) and areas (they aren't πR2) of circles of a given radius. (All measurements taken on the surface). It accurately relates the area of triangles on the surface to the sum of their angles (it's not π). And this relates to the intuitive idea of a curved surface. These aren't things that can happen on a flat surface.
Ah, yes. Under the assumption of spherical geometry, spherical geometry works. Of course. Unfortunately, Gaussian curvature does not relate to reality (as opposed to curvature), and it only deals with a circular model that assumes itself (pardon the redundancy here).
As you have agreed itself, it is a very abstract concept. However, I invite you to prove your case.

So you claim that I am using the wrong definition of curvature? Give me the definition for curvature you are using and then show that it is zero.
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/curvature?q=curvature

Due to the fact that, despite many attempts, no curvature is observable on the Earth, it is save to conclude that there is no curvature.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 09:09:16 PM by PizzaPlanet »
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momentia

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #695 on: November 07, 2011, 10:02:53 PM »
Lets go step by step.
1) Do you believe that the haversine formula gives accurate (mechanical) distances?

2) Do you believe that the metric (first fundamental form) I derived from the haversine formula is accurate?

3) Do you believe that the gaussian curvature calculated is accurate?

4) Do you believe that the sum of angles of a triangle on the earth is related to the triangle's area by the calculated gaussian curvature?

Also, defining curvature as something that is curved doesn't help... More mathematical please.

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #696 on: November 07, 2011, 11:23:32 PM »
1) I have had no opportunity to verify its accuracy.
2) I have had no opportunity to verify its accuracy.
3) I have had no opportunity to verify its accuracy.
4) I have had no opportunity to verify its accuracy.

Mathematics is a work of abstraction, and I will not use it to humour you.
Here's the definition of a curve: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/curve_1?q=curve
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whatnewguy

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #697 on: November 07, 2011, 11:48:12 PM »
Does anyone else find it ironic that PizzaPlanet's cited definition of 'curvature' uses the curvature of the Earth as a demonstration example?

That aside, I'm not really sure your proof is convincing from a FE point of view, momentia.  It relies on the assumption that two points designated at different latitudes and longitudes are actually points on a sphere in the first place, rather than say radial points on a disc.  The mathematics are rigorous enough to be sure, but the haversine formula is derived by considering points on a sphere -- not points on an arbitrary surface for which we wish to determine the curvature.  It simply doesn't apply if the surface is not a sphere.

Similarly, other methods for determining the Gaussian curvature of the Earth fail for this sort of proof.  Although the Gaussian curvature is an intrinsic property of a surface, we still must know something about the geometry of that surface in order to make any progress towards finding its curvature.  If we assume a totally arbitrary surface, there is no way to determine whether the Gaussian curvature is positive, negative or zero.  You could always assume the surface geometry then check predictions against reality, but without that data a purely mathematical proof isn't going to get anywhere.

Of course, if you accept that practical use of the haversine formula has shown that it yields accurate results in real life, I think you'll have a hard time arguing with that proof.  If it could be shown that it is accurate, then the whole issue would be resolved.  Demonstration of its accuracy would provide sufficient information about the shape of the Earth to follow through with the rest of the proof you provided and determine that the Earth is indeed spherical (or approximately so).

Unfortunately, I don't really count myself much in the navigation, cartography or surveying departments so I can't really vouch for the formula's results.  Now, if only there were some profession dedicated to the study and practice of making accurate measurements over long distances... (what ever happened to Theodolite?)

Alternately, it would be a pretty simple matter to try and travel in a triangle shape on the Earth's surface.  Travel some arbitrarily long distance, turn left by 120 degrees, travel the same distance again, repeat the turn, then repeat the distance once more.  If the Earth is in fact flat you should end up exactly where you started; if it is round you will be off by a distance proportional to the length of your travel leg.

Heck, you wouldn't even need to worry about trying to drive or walk in a straight line with this one -- you could do it with a protractor, some mirrors and a laser, mounted up on tall towers so you don't get things like trees or hills in the way.  But then, we've tried the whole "shine a laser over a long distance" proof before, and FE always rejects the notion either through semantic dissembling or bendy light.  I tried to make a similar point in a thread about the sun's path over a flat Earth vs. its apparent location, and the whole thing got lost in the notion of what constitutes travel in a straight line.



PizzaPlanet,

You might want to be careful about rejecting mathematics as entirely abstract.  While technically correct, your position neglects the fact that this abstraction is derived from real concepts and from ideas, shapes and properties that are grounded in reality.  From these things new truths about reality can be deduced.  As a FE supporter you should be especially sensitive to things like this, since the zetetic method is predicated upon the idea that a real concept can be analyzed using deductive logic in order to derive new truths about reality. 

For example, it is easy enough to find an entirely abstract proof of the Pythagorean theorem.  It's all geometry and algebraic relations.  But if I show you a rectangular object (say, a picture frame) and ask you to find the distance from one corner to the other, I'm pretty sure you would find that your measurement matches exactly with predictions made using that abstract mathematical proof.

Likewise, if it can be demonstrated that the distance between any two points on Earth can be calculated accurately using a particular method, then the mathematical properties of that method could be exploited to determine the shape of the Earth.  In this case, if the haversine formula accurately reflects reality then it can be conclusively demonstrated that the Earth is a globe, as momentia has shown.

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momentia

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #698 on: November 08, 2011, 12:28:45 AM »
Yeah, all this is based on pizza's assumption that FE mechanical distances and RE distances were the same, which is why I assumed haversine. So this is a disproof of pizza's FE, but without proof of haversine, its not a disproof of FE in general.

Pizza, I'd listen to whatnewguy's advice. Think before you claim a mathematical notion has no relation to reality.

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Zogg

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #699 on: November 08, 2011, 01:05:37 AM »
It accurately predicts the circumferences (they aren't 2πr) and areas (they aren't πR2) of circles of a given radius. (All measurements taken on the surface). It accurately relates the area of triangles on the surface to the sum of their angles (it's not π). And this relates to the intuitive idea of a curved surface. These aren't things that can happen on a flat surface.
Ah, yes. Under the assumption of spherical geometry, spherical geometry works.

This rhetorical trick of rejecting conclusions by claiming assumtions that have never been made is getting old.  Nobody has "assumed spherical geometry". Gauss curvature is defined on any smooth surface.

The earth is not a flat surface. Proven on your assumption of consistent distances (which is observable).
Disproven by the initial assumption that I'm not contesting science here, which I am since the very first word.

"I don't like math" is not a disproof of mathematical conclusions, whether or not one likes these conclusions. One might as well refuse to pay 36$ for three 12$ pizzas because addition is an abstract concept.

you can't deal with science
Of course I don't deal with science.

You didn't answer my question : According to you, is FET a scientific theory, or an unscientific one?

I'm not re-defining "flat". I'm just not allowing you to re-define curvature as "this one thing from that one abstract model that doesn't relate to reality all that much".

One might or might not colloquially use the word "curvature" in the sense  of "this one thing". But fact is, "this one thing" actually relates a lot to reality, and it is zero on flat surfaces. So, if earth is flat, "this one thing" equals zero, hence there is a flat, isometric map.

Please provide this map.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 01:48:58 AM by Zogg »

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #700 on: November 08, 2011, 04:30:16 AM »
Pizza, I'd listen to whatnewguy's advice. Think before you claim a mathematical notion has no relation to reality.
I apologise. I was far too aggressive and vindictive.
You're absolutely correct - some maths has a very tight relation to reality.
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Zogg

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #701 on: November 08, 2011, 05:04:00 AM »
You're absolutely correct - some maths has a very tight relation to reality.

But only maths that don't lead to question the FE dogma?

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trig

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #702 on: November 09, 2011, 01:53:05 AM »
Does anyone else find it ironic that PizzaPlanet's cited definition of 'curvature' uses the curvature of the Earth as a demonstration example?

Yes, at least one more person finds this absolutely hilarious.

It is like when I buy a very small, round ruler to measure my house (better known as a "protractor") and suddenly find out that all of my walls are curved. And no matter how hard I try, I cannot get the walls straight, and try and try until I just destroy the house with my attempts.

So, big discovery from PizzaPlanet: a sphere is flat in at least one non-euclidean geometry except for at least one point (usually the South Pole in FE "theories"). He/she shouts "with my curved ruler this sphere seems flat!!! therefore it is flat!!!" and considers this a big discovery.

So, PizzaPlanet, using a curved ruler and then saying it is straight is not a valid argument. Momentia has been more than polite trying to show you this elemental fact, so you should shut up and listen for a while.

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EmperorZhark

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #703 on: November 09, 2011, 07:36:37 AM »
Hang on, he'll try shortly to prove you wrong!
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #704 on: November 09, 2011, 10:19:47 AM »
The earth is not a flat surface. Proven on your assumption of consistent distances (which is observable).
Disproven by the initial assumption that I'm not contesting science here, which I am since the very first word.

"I don't like math" is not a disproof of mathematical conclusions, whether or not one likes these conclusions. One might as well refuse to pay 36$ for three 12$ pizzas because addition is an abstract concept.
Science is not math and math is not science.

Edit:  I'm reading the post this is referring to now and will update this appropriately shortly.
Pizza, I'd listen to whatnewguy's advice. Think before you claim a mathematical notion has no relation to reality.
I apologise. I was far too aggressive and vindictive.
You're absolutely correct - some maths has a very tight relation to reality.
Incorrect.  Math has no relation to reality, except by coincidence or by axiomatic design as a "useful lie".  It is independent and self contained.  Science can be done without numbers and mathematics.

Just because it was "inspired" supposedly by reality, does not mean you can take the principals you used in reality to construct a "proof" outside of math.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 10:29:55 AM by John Davis »
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jraffield1

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #705 on: November 09, 2011, 11:05:14 AM »
The earth is not a flat surface. Proven on your assumption of consistent distances (which is observable).
Disproven by the initial assumption that I'm not contesting science here, which I am since the very first word.

"I don't like math" is not a disproof of mathematical conclusions, whether or not one likes these conclusions. One might as well refuse to pay 36$ for three 12$ pizzas because addition is an abstract concept.
Science is not math and math is not science.

Edit:  I'm reading the post this is referring to now and will update this appropriately shortly.
Pizza, I'd listen to whatnewguy's advice. Think before you claim a mathematical notion has no relation to reality.
I apologise. I was far too aggressive and vindictive.
You're absolutely correct - some maths has a very tight relation to reality.
Incorrect.  Math has no relation to reality, except by coincidence or by axiomatic design as a "useful lie".  It is independent and self contained.  Science can be done without numbers and mathematics.

Just because it was "inspired" supposedly by reality, does not mean you can take the principals you used in reality to construct a "proof" outside of math.

I think that since reality behaves logically, and math is simply another way to express logical expressions, then reality can be expressed in the form of mathematics. If not math, what do you use to describe science?
You, sir, can't comprehend the idea of bottoms.

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Zogg

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #706 on: November 09, 2011, 11:29:04 AM »
Incorrect.  Math has no relation to reality, except by coincidence or by axiomatic design as a "useful lie".

Try to tell that to the pizza boy when he charges you $36 for three $12 pizzas. Or to the stewardess in the plane which stays in the air thanks to wings designed using mathematics. By the way, what device did you use to write these lines? A stone tablet? A parchment? Or a computer designed on the binary number system?

Science can be done without numbers and mathematics.

Oh, really? Even the simplies everyday tasks can't be done without mathematics. If you have a dessert recipe requiring 350g of chocolate for 4 persons, and you want to make dessert for 8 persons, how can you tell me how many 100g tablets of chocolate you have to buy,  without numbers and mathematics?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 11:39:36 AM by Zogg »

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #707 on: November 09, 2011, 12:38:24 PM »
Incorrect.  Math has no relation to reality, except by coincidence or by axiomatic design as a "useful lie".

Try to tell that to the pizza boy when he charges you $36 for three $12 pizzas. Or to the stewardess in the plane which stays in the air thanks to wings designed using mathematics. By the way, what device did you use to write these lines? A stone tablet? A parchment? Or a computer designed on the binary number system?
The reason the pizza boy charges 36 for 3*12 pizzas has nothing to do with math. 

You mean a computer designed using analog to mimic the binary number system?
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Science can be done without numbers and mathematics.

Oh, really? Even the simplies everyday tasks can't be done without mathematics. If you have a dessert recipe requiring 350g of chocolate for 4 persons, and you want to make dessert for 8 persons, how can you tell me how many 100g tablets of chocolate you have to buy,  without numbers and mathematics?
Read: http://www.amazon.com/Science-Without-Numbers-Defence-Nominalism/dp/0691072604
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 12:57:32 PM by John Davis »
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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #708 on: November 09, 2011, 12:39:30 PM »
The earth is not a flat surface. Proven on your assumption of consistent distances (which is observable).
Disproven by the initial assumption that I'm not contesting science here, which I am since the very first word.

"I don't like math" is not a disproof of mathematical conclusions, whether or not one likes these conclusions. One might as well refuse to pay 36$ for three 12$ pizzas because addition is an abstract concept.
Science is not math and math is not science.

Edit:  I'm reading the post this is referring to now and will update this appropriately shortly.
Pizza, I'd listen to whatnewguy's advice. Think before you claim a mathematical notion has no relation to reality.
I apologise. I was far too aggressive and vindictive.
You're absolutely correct - some maths has a very tight relation to reality.
Incorrect.  Math has no relation to reality, except by coincidence or by axiomatic design as a "useful lie".  It is independent and self contained.  Science can be done without numbers and mathematics.

Just because it was "inspired" supposedly by reality, does not mean you can take the principals you used in reality to construct a "proof" outside of math.

I think that since reality behaves logically, and math is simply another way to express logical expressions, then reality can be expressed in the form of mathematics. If not math, what do you use to describe science?
Does reality behave logically? 
If yyou chan'tt a!rgue both siddes, you undertand neither

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #709 on: November 09, 2011, 12:41:19 PM »
The earth is not a flat surface. Proven on your assumption of consistent distances (which is observable).
Disproven by the initial assumption that I'm not contesting science here, which I am since the very first word.

"I don't like math" is not a disproof of mathematical conclusions, whether or not one likes these conclusions. One might as well refuse to pay 36$ for three 12$ pizzas because addition is an abstract concept.
Science is not math and math is not science.

Edit:  I'm reading the post this is referring to now and will update this appropriately shortly.
Pizza, I'd listen to whatnewguy's advice. Think before you claim a mathematical notion has no relation to reality.
I apologise. I was far too aggressive and vindictive.
You're absolutely correct - some maths has a very tight relation to reality.
Incorrect.  Math has no relation to reality, except by coincidence or by axiomatic design as a "useful lie".  It is independent and self contained.  Science can be done without numbers and mathematics. 

 
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PizzaPlanet,

You might want to be careful about rejecting mathematics as entirely abstract.  While technically correct, your position neglects the fact that this abstraction is derived from real concepts and from ideas, shapes and properties that are grounded in reality.  From these things new truths about reality can be deduced.  As a FE supporter you should be especially sensitive to things like this, since the zetetic method is predicated upon the idea that a real concept can be analyzed using deductive logic in order to derive new truths about reality. 
You are making the assumption we are "discovering" math, not inventing it.  This is a position that does need to be supported before assumed.
Quote
For example, it is easy enough to find an entirely abstract proof of the Pythagorean theorem.  It's all geometry and algebraic relations.  But if I show you a rectangular object (say, a picture frame) and ask you to find the distance from one corner to the other, I'm pretty sure you would find that your measurement matches exactly with predictions made using that abstract mathematical proof.
I'd wager that it will not match exactly with predictions made using an abstract proof.  It is ridiculous to claim it will.  Perhaps you meant it will "match close enough for engineering and stuff."

Quote
Likewise, if it can be demonstrated that the distance between any two points on Earth can be calculated accurately using a particular method, then the mathematical properties of that method could be exploited to determine the shape of the Earth.  In this case, if the haversine formula accurately reflects reality then it can be conclusively demonstrated that the Earth is a globe, as momentia has shown.
Just because it was "inspired" supposedly by reality, does not mean you can take the principals you used in reality to construct a "proof" outside of math.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 12:58:35 PM by John Davis »
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jraffield1

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #710 on: November 09, 2011, 01:06:07 PM »
The earth is not a flat surface. Proven on your assumption of consistent distances (which is observable).
Disproven by the initial assumption that I'm not contesting science here, which I am since the very first word.

"I don't like math" is not a disproof of mathematical conclusions, whether or not one likes these conclusions. One might as well refuse to pay 36$ for three 12$ pizzas because addition is an abstract concept.
Science is not math and math is not science.

Edit:  I'm reading the post this is referring to now and will update this appropriately shortly.
Pizza, I'd listen to whatnewguy's advice. Think before you claim a mathematical notion has no relation to reality.
I apologise. I was far too aggressive and vindictive.
You're absolutely correct - some maths has a very tight relation to reality.
Incorrect.  Math has no relation to reality, except by coincidence or by axiomatic design as a "useful lie".  It is independent and self contained.  Science can be done without numbers and mathematics.

Just because it was "inspired" supposedly by reality, does not mean you can take the principals you used in reality to construct a "proof" outside of math.

I think that since reality behaves logically, and math is simply another way to express logical expressions, then reality can be expressed in the form of mathematics. If not math, what do you use to describe science?
Does reality behave logically?

If it doesn't, then we have lost our greatest tool for understanding reality, because then we would have nothing with which to understand anything.
You, sir, can't comprehend the idea of bottoms.

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Zogg

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #711 on: November 09, 2011, 01:10:39 PM »
Science is not math and math is not science.

Natural science is based on math. Show me one physical law which doesn't make use of mathematics.

I'd wager that it will not match exactly with predictions made using an abstract proof.  It is ridiculous to claim it will. 

Why is this ridiculous? If you claim there exists triangles which disproof the Pythagorean theorem, you better show us such a triangle, or you are being ridiculous.

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #712 on: November 09, 2011, 01:18:27 PM »
Science is not math and math is not science.

Natural science is based on math. Show me one physical law which doesn't make use of mathematics.
The book I linked, iirc, defines Newtonian physics without use of "math".  He was using it to say something else, but thats irrelevant.
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I'd wager that it will not match exactly with predictions made using an abstract proof.  It is ridiculous to claim it will. 

Why is this ridiculous? If you claim there exists triangles which disproof the Pythagorean theorem, you better show us such a triangle, or you are being ridiculous.
I'll show you a triangle once you show me one.    Triangles don't exist.  Measuring tools aren't exact.  RE models aren't even self consistent.  The pythagorean theorem doesn't even hold even for a "perfectly rectangular object" if one were to exist.  These are many problems with picking your axioms based off of zeteticism alone - And of mathematical empiricism.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 01:34:14 PM by John Davis »
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Zogg

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #713 on: November 09, 2011, 01:35:12 PM »
Natural science is based on math. Show me one physical law which doesn't make use of mathematics.
The book I linked, iirc, defines Newtonian physics without use of "math".  He was using it to say something else, but thats irrelevant.

I said "Show me one physical law which doesn't make use of mathematics", not "Show me a link to an obscure $125 book which claims showing science without maths."  If you don't have an answer I must pay $125 for, you better stay silent.

The pythagorean theorem doesn't even hold even for a "perfectly rectangular object" if one were to exist.

Unbased claims like this don't add anything to your credibility.

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #714 on: November 09, 2011, 01:35:49 PM »
Natural science is based on math. Show me one physical law which doesn't make use of mathematics.
The book I linked, iirc, defines Newtonian physics without use of "math".  He was using it to say something else, but thats irrelevant.

I said "Show me one physical law which doesn't make use of mathematics", not "Show me a link to an obscure $125 book which claims showing science without maths."  If you don't have an answer I must pay $125 for, you better stay silent.

The pythagorean theorem doesn't even hold even for a "perfectly rectangular object" if one were to exist.

Unbased claims like this don't add anything to your credibility.
Perhaps you should review Euclidean vs Non-Euclidean geometry.
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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #715 on: November 09, 2011, 01:36:56 PM »
Natural science is based on math. Show me one physical law which doesn't make use of mathematics.
The book I linked, iirc, defines Newtonian physics without use of "math".  He was using it to say something else, but thats irrelevant.

I said "Show me one physical law which doesn't make use of mathematics", not "Show me a link to an obscure $125 book which claims showing science without maths."  If you don't have an answer I must pay $125 for, you better stay silent.
Oh, I'm sorry.  I wasn't aware that every library in the world has gone bankrupt.   And the internet doesn't exist.  And secondary sources don't exist.

One physical law?  Newtons 3 laws of motion.
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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #716 on: November 09, 2011, 01:44:04 PM »
One physical law?  Newtons 3 laws of motion.

First law: The velocity of a body remains constant unless the body is acted upon by an external force.

Velocity is a vector, a mathematical notion.

Second law: The acceleration a of a body is parallel and directly proportional to the net force F and inversely proportional to the mass m, i.e., F = ma.

Acceleration is a vector, a mathematical notion. "Directly proportional" and "inversely proportional"are  mathematical notions.  "F = ma" is a mathematical formula.

Third law: The mutual forces of action and reaction between two bodies are equal, opposite and collinear.

Force is a vector, a mathematical notion. Equality and collinearity are mathematical notions.

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #717 on: November 09, 2011, 01:47:18 PM »
The earth is not a flat surface. Proven on your assumption of consistent distances (which is observable).
Disproven by the initial assumption that I'm not contesting science here, which I am since the very first word.

"I don't like math" is not a disproof of mathematical conclusions, whether or not one likes these conclusions. One might as well refuse to pay 36$ for three 12$ pizzas because addition is an abstract concept.
Science is not math and math is not science.

Edit:  I'm reading the post this is referring to now and will update this appropriately shortly.
Pizza, I'd listen to whatnewguy's advice. Think before you claim a mathematical notion has no relation to reality.
I apologise. I was far too aggressive and vindictive.
You're absolutely correct - some maths has a very tight relation to reality.
Incorrect.  Math has no relation to reality, except by coincidence or by axiomatic design as a "useful lie".  It is independent and self contained.  Science can be done without numbers and mathematics.

Just because it was "inspired" supposedly by reality, does not mean you can take the principals you used in reality to construct a "proof" outside of math.

I think that since reality behaves logically, and math is simply another way to express logical expressions, then reality can be expressed in the form of mathematics. If not math, what do you use to describe science?
Does reality behave logically?

If it doesn't, then we have lost our greatest tool for understanding reality, because then we would have nothing with which to understand anything.
There is evidence that mathematics alone can't be reduced to logic, let alone reality.  Truth is sometimes indeed stranger than fiction as fiction needs a logical hold.
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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #718 on: November 09, 2011, 02:22:15 PM »
The earth is not a flat surface. Proven on your assumption of consistent distances (which is observable).
Disproven by the initial assumption that I'm not contesting science here, which I am since the very first word.

"I don't like math" is not a disproof of mathematical conclusions, whether or not one likes these conclusions. One might as well refuse to pay 36$ for three 12$ pizzas because addition is an abstract concept.
Science is not math and math is not science.

Edit:  I'm reading the post this is referring to now and will update this appropriately shortly.
Pizza, I'd listen to whatnewguy's advice. Think before you claim a mathematical notion has no relation to reality.
I apologise. I was far too aggressive and vindictive.
You're absolutely correct - some maths has a very tight relation to reality.
Incorrect.  Math has no relation to reality, except by coincidence or by axiomatic design as a "useful lie".  It is independent and self contained.  Science can be done without numbers and mathematics.

Just because it was "inspired" supposedly by reality, does not mean you can take the principals you used in reality to construct a "proof" outside of math.

I think that since reality behaves logically, and math is simply another way to express logical expressions, then reality can be expressed in the form of mathematics. If not math, what do you use to describe science?
Does reality behave logically?

If it doesn't, then we have lost our greatest tool for understanding reality, because then we would have nothing with which to understand anything.
There is evidence that mathematics alone can't be reduced to logic, let alone reality.  Truth is sometimes indeed stranger than fiction as fiction needs a logical hold.

So if you refuse to use logic and mathematics in your theories, how do you express anything useful?
You, sir, can't comprehend the idea of bottoms.

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Re: Distances on RE and FE consistent thanks to bendy light.
« Reply #719 on: November 09, 2011, 02:35:02 PM »
I don't refuse to.  The key is being aware and mindful of the implications of using a tool before you use it.  Its the same issue with science and the current weather there.  This whole movement to try to ridicule and discredit the philosophy of science while at the same time holding its consequences as immutable law.
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