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All Atheists Believe in God

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Vindictus

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Re: All Atheists Believe in God
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2010, 06:04:10 AM »
Isn't this just as redundant as saying Atheism is a religion?
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HR Puff N Stuff

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Re: All Atheists Believe in God
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2010, 06:57:27 AM »
Do atheists believe in a being called Mother Nature?  I don't think so.  Nature is not a supernatural sentient being in the way that God is (allegedly).  Atheists do not believe in God. 
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Tom Bishop

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Re: All Atheists Believe in God
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2010, 08:10:17 AM »
Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on December 13, 2010, 04:06:38 AM
Fine, I'll accept 'Nature' being 'God' if you accept 'God' as being a worthless noun.

It's like pantheists who say 'God' is everything, therefore there isn't much use of the word 'god' is there?

Atheists specifically attribute paranormal attributes to Nature and give it omnipotent qualities fitting of a god.

In any subject on how the world works, if you keep asking why things are they way they are we always come down to "that's just the way it is in nature." The necessity for explanation is given up entirely at a certain point and the cause is blamed on a supernatural element to the universe.

If it cannot be explained, if it can do the extraordinary and supernatural, then you are invoking a god.

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God = supernatural
Nature = natural

I'm not quite getting the comparison. You can maybe use it in the vaguest of senses, but it's really difficult.

God is a supernatural being used to explain occurrences we don't understand.
Nature is the natural explanation for occurrences that we may or may not understand.

Nature is often given as a scapegoat for many questions of "why" and "how" of the universe. Nature is endowed with odd, phenomenal qualities which have not been explained. Thus, nature is supernatural.

It is contradicting to the extreme how atheists can give nature unexplained abilities and then still think that nature is somehow rational, somehow different than supernatural explanations such as God. It's the same exact thing. Whenever you attribute explanations to the unknown you are saying "God did it" whether you are calling it "God," "Nature," or "Frosty the Snowman".

It's a supernatural scapegoat. End of story.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 09:25:09 AM by Tom Bishop »
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Kira-SY

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Re: All Atheists Believe in God
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2010, 08:25:10 AM »
If we admit "god" and "nature" as "the way things work", it's OK for me. It's just names for the way of working of the things.
Where you are wrong, Tom, is saying that this name is the equivalent to the christian God, an entity with thought, intentions and plans, that's not what nature/god in your argument is understood, only the inherent characteristics of the things.

There are two different meanings, and you want to make 'em equal, and that's not possible.

@Cassiterides: Say again, where does God come from? And if you say "it always existed", I tell you "universe always existed", so... Where?
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FlatBlack

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Re: All Atheists Believe in God
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2010, 08:36:32 AM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on December 13, 2010, 08:10:17 AM
Nature is often given as a scapegoat for many questions of "why" and "how" of the universe. Nature is endowed with odd, phenomenal qualities which have not been explained. Thus, nature is supernatural.

I loathe this arguement.

If one does not understand what the catalyst for an event is, one should not assume that the catalyst MUST be supernatural. If one does believe that there is a possibility that there is a 'supernatural' cause, than one should also entertain the possibility that there is a 'natural' cause.

Would you believe lighting could only be caused by Zeus if you could not explain why lightning is created in natural terms?
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Tom Bishop

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Re: All Atheists Believe in God
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2010, 08:40:07 AM »
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If we admit "god" and "nature" as "the way things work", it's OK for me. It's just names for the way of working of the things.

Where you are wrong, Tom, is saying that this name is the equivalent to the christian God, an entity with thought, intentions and plans, that's not what nature/god in your argument is understood, only the inherent characteristics of the things.

There are two different meanings, and you want to make 'em equal, and that's not possible.

There is a difference between a Personal God and a Natural God, sure. Personal God talks to people and has thought and plans.

All religions have a Natural God, but not all religions have a Personal God. In some religions God is purely natural, such as in Native American and African religions. In other religions, such as Christianity, God is both natural and personal.

In Christianity God is both the cause for creation/how the universe works, and is also a sentient being.

I am not saying that atheists believe in a Personal God. They don't. But they do believe in a Natural God, just as the Native Americans believe in a Natural God(s).
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 08:45:27 AM by Tom Bishop »
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FlatBlack

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Re: All Atheists Believe in God
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2010, 08:42:06 AM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on December 13, 2010, 08:40:07 AM
I am not saying that atheists believe in a Personal God. They don't. But they do believe in a Natural God, just as the Native Americans believe in a Natural God(s).
I'm an atheist, and I do not believe in a Natural God. Read my comment above.
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Trekky0623

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Re: All Atheists Believe in God
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2010, 08:58:19 AM »
We don't attribuite supernatural qualities to nature. If we don't understand something, we say because that's the way shit happens. So yes, you are attributing it to nature, but not in any supernatural sense. It's more of a "just 'cause" answer.
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Beorn

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Re: All Atheists Believe in God
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2010, 09:37:48 AM »
I don't understand how kungfu monks can do push-ups with their fingers, are they my Gods now?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 11:57:14 AM by Beorn »
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Masterchef

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Re: All Atheists Believe in God
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2010, 11:56:19 AM »
Responding to a troll in a troll topic.

Quote from: Cassiterides on December 13, 2010, 02:17:03 AM
Atheists believe in abiogenesis which has never been observed in nature and natural law argues against it.

Atheists believe in a fairytale that they were created by spontaneous generation.
Atheism has no set belief on the creation of life or the universe. Any beliefs on these subjects will vary from atheist to atheist, and are independent of their disbelief in any gods.

Quote from: Masterchef on December 12, 2010, 05:29:50 PM
The problem is that most theists confuse atheism with certain beliefs/lifestyles/worldviews that are common among atheists, even though they are completely independent of atheism.

Quote from: frostee on December 13, 2010, 01:15:44 AM
I agree with Tom here. I would also use this argument to support my view that atheism is a religion.
The above quote applies to you as well. How can something be a religion when it has no set beliefs?
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Cassiterides

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Re: All Atheists Believe in God
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2010, 12:12:52 PM »
Quote from: Masterchef on December 13, 2010, 11:56:19 AM
Atheism has no set belief on the creation of life or the universe. Any beliefs on these subjects will vary from atheist to atheist, and are independent of their disbelief in any gods.

Thats not the point, the point is - all atheists since they didn't observe the creation of the universe (like everyone else) have nothing more than a faith/belief/religious view about how/why/when it was created.

Atheism is 100% faith based. If you disagree, then tell me how the universe was made and provide observational, testable, replicable evidence.
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Mykael

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Re: All Atheists Believe in God
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2010, 12:26:28 PM »
Quote from: Cassiterides on December 13, 2010, 12:12:52 PM
Quote from: Masterchef on December 13, 2010, 11:56:19 AM
Atheism has no set belief on the creation of life or the universe. Any beliefs on these subjects will vary from atheist to atheist, and are independent of their disbelief in any gods.

Thats not the point, the point is - all atheists since they didn't observe the creation of the universe (like everyone else) have nothing more than a faith/belief/religious view about how/why/when it was created.

Atheism is 100% faith based. If you disagree, then tell me how the universe was made and provide observational, testable, replicable evidence.
What part of "atheism makes no claims" don't you understand?
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Benocrates

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Re: All Atheists Believe in God
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2010, 12:39:53 PM »
Quote from: Cassiterides on December 13, 2010, 12:12:52 PM
Quote from: Masterchef on December 13, 2010, 11:56:19 AM
Atheism has no set belief on the creation of life or the universe. Any beliefs on these subjects will vary from atheist to atheist, and are independent of their disbelief in any gods.

Thats not the point, the point is - all atheists since they didn't observe the creation of the universe (like everyone else) have nothing more than a faith/belief/religious view about how/why/when it was created.

Atheism is 100% faith based. If you disagree, then tell me how the universe was made and provide observational, testable, replicable evidence.

you need more Sir Francis Bacon in your life chief
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Quote from: President Barack Obama
Pot had helped
Quote from: Parsifal on July 26, 2010, 04:39:24 PM
Get the fuck over it.
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Trekky0623

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Re: All Atheists Believe in God
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2010, 12:41:46 PM »
THE GREAT POSTULATES OF ATHEISM
Passed down from the great Elders of Atheism, 5th Century B.C.


RULE 1: We're pretty sure there isn't a god, so we choose not to believe in one.
RULE 2: No, we're done. There is no rule two.
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Keldarion Typrax

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Re: All Atheists Believe in God
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2010, 12:53:21 PM »
I think you're all getting trolled.
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Cassiterides

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Re: All Atheists Believe in God
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2010, 01:11:15 PM »
Quote from: Mykael on December 13, 2010, 12:26:28 PM
Quote from: Cassiterides on December 13, 2010, 12:12:52 PM
Quote from: Masterchef on December 13, 2010, 11:56:19 AM
Atheism has no set belief on the creation of life or the universe. Any beliefs on these subjects will vary from atheist to atheist, and are independent of their disbelief in any gods.

Thats not the point, the point is - all atheists since they didn't observe the creation of the universe (like everyone else) have nothing more than a faith/belief/religious view about how/why/when it was created.

Atheism is 100% faith based. If you disagree, then tell me how the universe was made and provide observational, testable, replicable evidence.
What part of "atheism makes no claims" don't you understand?

Atheism makes several non-scientific claims, firstly ''god doesn't exist''. Atheism is a religion and faith based.
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Benocrates

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Re: All Atheists Believe in God
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2010, 01:12:48 PM »
sure, you can win this semantic argument. So what? What are you arguing for here? What does it matter?
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Quote from: President Barack Obama
Pot had helped
Quote from: Parsifal on July 26, 2010, 04:39:24 PM
Get the fuck over it.
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Trekky0623

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Re: All Atheists Believe in God
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2010, 01:15:14 PM »
Quote from: Cassiterides on December 13, 2010, 01:11:15 PM
Quote from: Mykael on December 13, 2010, 12:26:28 PM
Quote from: Cassiterides on December 13, 2010, 12:12:52 PM
Quote from: Masterchef on December 13, 2010, 11:56:19 AM
Atheism has no set belief on the creation of life or the universe. Any beliefs on these subjects will vary from atheist to atheist, and are independent of their disbelief in any gods.

Thats not the point, the point is - all atheists since they didn't observe the creation of the universe (like everyone else) have nothing more than a faith/belief/religious view about how/why/when it was created.

Atheism is 100% faith based. If you disagree, then tell me how the universe was made and provide observational, testable, replicable evidence.
What part of "atheism makes no claims" don't you understand?

Atheism makes several non-scientific claims, firstly ''god doesn't exist''. Atheism is a religion and faith based.

Atheists don't believe in God. They don't make claims about his existence. For example, you, I guess, believe in God. Do you also make the claim that he exists, or do you just believe that he does?
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Mykael

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Re: All Atheists Believe in God
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2010, 01:17:08 PM »
Quote from: Cassiterides on December 13, 2010, 01:11:15 PM
Quote from: Mykael on December 13, 2010, 12:26:28 PM
Quote from: Cassiterides on December 13, 2010, 12:12:52 PM
Quote from: Masterchef on December 13, 2010, 11:56:19 AM
Atheism has no set belief on the creation of life or the universe. Any beliefs on these subjects will vary from atheist to atheist, and are independent of their disbelief in any gods.

Thats not the point, the point is - all atheists since they didn't observe the creation of the universe (like everyone else) have nothing more than a faith/belief/religious view about how/why/when it was created.

Atheism is 100% faith based. If you disagree, then tell me how the universe was made and provide observational, testable, replicable evidence.
What part of "atheism makes no claims" don't you understand?

Atheism makes several non-scientific claims, firstly ''god doesn't exist''. Atheism is a religion and faith based.
Atheism does not make that claim. Fail.

Atheism does not assert that claim, it merely denies its opposite (the claim "God exists"). It is impossible to either prove or disprove the concept of God.
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: All Atheists Believe in God
« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2010, 01:23:46 PM »
Quote from: Cassiterides on December 13, 2010, 01:11:15 PM
Quote from: Mykael on December 13, 2010, 12:26:28 PM
Quote from: Cassiterides on December 13, 2010, 12:12:52 PM
Quote from: Masterchef on December 13, 2010, 11:56:19 AM
Atheism has no set belief on the creation of life or the universe. Any beliefs on these subjects will vary from atheist to atheist, and are independent of their disbelief in any gods.

Thats not the point, the point is - all atheists since they didn't observe the creation of the universe (like everyone else) have nothing more than a faith/belief/religious view about how/why/when it was created.

Atheism is 100% faith based. If you disagree, then tell me how the universe was made and provide observational, testable, replicable evidence.
What part of "atheism makes no claims" don't you understand?

Atheism makes several non-scientific claims, firstly ''god doesn't exist''. Atheism is a religion and faith based.

Some atheists do, but not all.  Some like myself make the claim "there is no evidence that god exists".  I don't believe in god for the same reason I don't believe in godzilla, and harry potter, because outside of literature and film, there is no evidence for their existence.  That's a very agnostic way of looking at things, but it is also atheist as well.  I am an atheist because I do not believe, and I am also agnostic because I do not know.

Now, because I don't believe that Harry Potter, or wizards in general exist, does that mean I am part of an "anti Harry Potter" religion?  The notion that I belong to a religion because I don't believe in God is just as flawed.
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Masterchef

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Re: All Atheists Believe in God
« Reply #50 on: December 13, 2010, 02:49:37 PM »
1) God exists.
2) God does not exist.

Both of the above are positive claims. Anyone making one of these claims has the burden of proof, and rejection of the claim until there is sufficient evidence supporting it is the only rational position. Theists make the first claim. Atheists reject the claim on the grounds that there is no evidence to support it.

Most atheists DO NOT make claim 2. Some do, but that claim is independent of atheism.
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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: All Atheists Believe in God
« Reply #51 on: December 13, 2010, 03:00:56 PM »
Therefore, is the statement 'If a gear turn clockwise, the gear it connects to turns anti-clockwise' a religious statement? It's a statement about a rule of nature, after all..
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: All Atheists Believe in God
« Reply #52 on: December 13, 2010, 05:27:55 PM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on December 13, 2010, 01:39:59 AM
Quote
If you had asked me, I would have said "I have no idea".
(Counter example given.)

You have no idea of what exactly - how the universe works? How nature works?

If you've answered yes to any of the above then you are implying that it is nature which does it; and hence your excuse leads us to "nature did it".
  • I do not contend "nature did it", but that it is natural for it to happen. In case you can't recognize the distinction, the natural is not responsible, but since it happened, it is deemed natural. You have the causal relationship flipped. What is occurs is considered to be a part of reality, but I do not contend that reality itself takes an active role in causing events.
  • I do not contend that nature is a deity.
  • I do not contend that nature has supernatural qualities. (which is inherent to the definition of a god)
  • I do not contend that nature posses any power, knowledge, morality, or consciousness (which is inherent to the definition of a god).
  • I do not contend that being an atheist requires faith.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 06:37:14 PM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
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If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.
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