Operation Payback

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Lord Wilmore

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Operation Payback
« on: December 08, 2010, 08:35:02 AM »
So by now Operation Payback is headline news all over the world. Personally, I think it's protest and civil disobediance at its best. This society's motto is 'IN VERITATE VICTORIA' - in truth, victory. I believe WikiLeaks embodies the same values of truth and inquiry which this society seeks to promote, and for that reason I encourage other people to take part.


I genuinely think that anyone here who supports the above values shold get behind this protest. Whatever you may think of Julian Assange and the charges he faces, or the manner in which WikiLeaks has gone about releasing this information, I think the efforts to shut them down and cripple the organisation via state pressure and semi-legal or even illegal methods must be resisted. I know a lot of baggage comes with the 'Anonymous' banner, and you may not agree with all actions undertaken beneath that banner, but this surely is a cause which we can all support. Get behind it and do what you can. It doesn't even take that much effort.


Finally, I say all of this in a personal capacity.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2010, 08:39:54 AM »
Also, I will post links which lead to info on Operation Payback if anyone is interested.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2010, 08:41:47 AM »
Is this the hackers that retaliated?
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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2010, 09:10:24 AM »
Is this the same bunch that attacked MasterCard?

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2010, 09:53:54 AM »
Yes. Operation Payback have been targeting MasterCard in earnest since yesterday. See here for mainstream coverage:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11935539


It's now teh top story on the BBC website.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2010, 11:02:09 AM »
I could not possibly disagree with you more, Wilmore.  First of all, let me just say that I'm not a right-wing hardliner.  While I disagree with many of the things that Assange and WikiLeaks have done, I don't believe it's right for the government to be trying to censor them.  And yes, I agree that Gene Simmons is a dipshit.  But what these hackers are doing now is completely unwarranted.

One reason is that I don't believe that the companies being hacked have even done anything morally wrong.  Amazon, PayPal, Visa, etc. are all private companies.  They are free to do business - or refuse to - with whomever they like.  There is no law saying that Assange has this special right to use PayPal and they have to accept that whether they like it or not.  Some people will reply to this by saying that it's a political decision to drop him.  And you know what?  They're almost definitely right.  Assange is a highly controversial figure, and whether it's fair or not, he's in big trouble with the U.S. government.  These companies don't want to be associated with that, so they aren't doing business with him.  It's the same reason that Rush Limbaugh wasn't able to buy the St. Louis Rams.  It's their company and their call.

Secondly, even if I agreed that what the companies were doing was wrong, there is far too much collateral damage from hacking their websites for it to be a reasonable form of protest.  MasterCard is still down, and has been down for hours.  There are no doubt plenty of people right now who wanted to go on the website to order a card or whatever, but they can't, because of this dog-and-pony show.  And what happens if they take down PayPal next?  Millions of people use that service.  Daniel uses it.  What if people suddenly can't use PayPal to order their FES t-shirts, just because a bunch of antisocial nerds want to make some political point?  This is burning down your former workplace just because you were fired.  It's toilet papering your local police station because they gave you a ticket.  It's lying down in the middle of a busy street and holding up traffic to protest some decision or another from your mayor.  Everyone suffers from these heavy-handed displays of revenge, not just the people responsible.

tl;dr: Hackers, go fuck yourselves.

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Lorddave

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2010, 11:32:09 AM »
I could not possibly disagree with you more, Wilmore.  First of all, let me just say that I'm not a right-wing hardliner.  While I disagree with many of the things that Assange and WikiLeaks have done, I don't believe it's right for the government to be trying to censor them.  And yes, I agree that Gene Simmons is a dipshit.  But what these hackers are doing now is completely unwarranted.

One reason is that I don't believe that the companies being hacked have even done anything morally wrong.  Amazon, PayPal, Visa, etc. are all private companies.  They are free to do business - or refuse to - with whomever they like.  There is no law saying that Assange has this special right to use PayPal and they have to accept that whether they like it or not.  Some people will reply to this by saying that it's a political decision to drop him.  And you know what?  They're almost definitely right.  Assange is a highly controversial figure, and whether it's fair or not, he's in big trouble with the U.S. government.  These companies don't want to be associated with that, so they aren't doing business with him.  It's the same reason that Rush Limbaugh wasn't able to buy the St. Louis Rams.  It's their company and their call.

Secondly, even if I agreed that what the companies were doing was wrong, there is far too much collateral damage from hacking their websites for it to be a reasonable form of protest.  MasterCard is still down, and has been down for hours.  There are no doubt plenty of people right now who wanted to go on the website to order a card or whatever, but they can't, because of this dog-and-pony show.  And what happens if they take down PayPal next?  Millions of people use that service.  Daniel uses it.  What if people suddenly can't use PayPal to order their FES t-shirts, just because a bunch of antisocial nerds want to make some political point?  This is burning down your former workplace just because you were fired.  It's toilet papering your local police station because they gave you a ticket.  It's lying down in the middle of a busy street and holding up traffic to protest some decision or another from your mayor.  Everyone suffers from these heavy-handed displays of revenge, not just the people responsible.

tl;dr: Hackers, go fuck yourselves.
I'd say something but you said it far better.

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Thork

Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2010, 11:49:12 AM »
Part of me does just wonder if the hackers are doing this because they can. Normally this would be considered highly illegal and have no justification. It mirrors the student protests in London. Whilst the students have a cause to go out and protest, their demonstration is being hi-jacked by people who just want to smash buildings and fight with police.

I don't believe these hackers care about Wikileaks. I think its just a good excuse for a bunch of them to get together and see if they can take down organisations like paypal, without the public baying for their blood and so blunting the authorities ability to deal with them. DNOS attacks are still illegal, and so it is breaking the law. One man can make a stand and you don't have to break the law effecting other members of the public to do it.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 11:56:41 AM by Thork »

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2010, 12:13:03 PM »
One reason is that I don't believe that the companies being hacked have even done anything morally wrong.  Amazon, PayPal, Visa, etc. are all private companies.  They are free to do business - or refuse to - with whomever they like.  There is no law saying that Assange has this special right to use PayPal and they have to accept that whether they like it or not.  Some people will reply to this by saying that it's a political decision to drop him.  And you know what?  They're almost definitely right.  Assange is a highly controversial figure, and whether it's fair or not, he's in big trouble with the U.S. government.  These companies don't want to be associated with that, so they aren't doing business with him.  It's the same reason that Rush Limbaugh wasn't able to buy the St. Louis Rams.  It's their company and their call.


First of all, it is not clear that Visa/MasterCard/PayPal's actions are legal, and the hosting company Datacell has already announced it intends to take legal action against some of these companies. Secondly, I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure there is legislation in most countries regarding customer discrimination, so I'm not sure that "[t]hey are free to do business - or refuse to - with whomever they like". Now, I could be wrong, but even if I am, I don't think it matters.


The reason it doesn't matter is simple: you should equate moral wrongs with legal wrongs. They are two very different things. I have no doubt that Amazon, MasterCard et al. could do any number of morally distasteful/reprehensible things without breaking the law, but that doesn't mean they are not wrong. What they are doing is wrong because they are bowing to non-legal (i.e. distinct from illegal) forms of governmental/politcal pressure. What's more, they have not been frank about the reasons for their sudden turnaround, with the exception of PayPal which has admitted there was pressure from the U.S. State Department, who told them that WikiLeaks' activity was illegal. However, the U.S. State Department has since come out and said it did not write to PayPal, and no legal charges or action have been brough against WikiLeaks in the United States. They are behaving in a manner that threatens fundamental rights and institutions which almost everyone supports.


Secondly, even if I agreed that what the companies were doing was wrong, there is far too much collateral damage from hacking their websites for it to be a reasonable form of protest.  MasterCard is still down, and has been down for hours.  There are no doubt plenty of people right now who wanted to go on the website to order a card or whatever, but they can't, because of this dog-and-pony show.  And what happens if they take down PayPal next?  Millions of people use that service.  Daniel uses it.  What if people suddenly can't use PayPal to order their FES t-shirts, just because a bunch of antisocial nerds want to make some political point?  This is burning down your former workplace just because you were fired.  It's toilet papering your local police station because they gave you a ticket.  It's lying down in the middle of a busy street and holding up traffic to protest some decision or another from your mayor.  Everyone suffers from these heavy-handed displays of revenge, not just the people responsible.


Are you seriously suggesting that being able to buy t-shirts or order a new credit card is more important than defending the right of press organisations to expose war crimes, atrocities and torture? Jesus Christ Saddam, if you really think that being unable to make frivolous purchases/acquisitions constitutes greater "collateral damage" than the suppression of the free press, you have some seriously skewed values.


tl;dr: Hackers, go fuck yourselves.


These aren't "hackers", they're just normal people who want to protest against what they see as an active campaign to suppress rights and institutions which they value.


Western governments constantly praise political dissidents and whistle-blowers from China, Russia, Iran etc., and encourage free-press and democratic movements in these nations. Yet when it comes to criticism of their own actions, the tune suddenly changes. It's rank hypocrisy, and people are right to oppose it.


One man can make a stand and you don't have to break the law effecting other members of the public to do it.



Though no-one knows whether he was ever found or identified (publicly), the Communist Party in China searched for that man, and he would almost certainly have been executed or imprisoned if they found him. Indeed, there are some reports that his fate was precisely that.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2010, 12:27:22 PM »
I fully support keeping Wikileaks online and available. However, does it make sense to fight censorship (and keep websites like Wikileaks online) by attacking other websites and causing them to go offline? A little hypocrisy I think.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 12:29:26 PM by Ichimaru Gin :] »
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Lorddave

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2010, 12:39:24 PM »
Wilmore:
I don't think what Paypal, Mastercard, or any of the other companies did was illegal or immoral.  They aren't singling out a group of people, they're singling out a single individual because of all the problems serving him causes.

It would be akin to a bank refusing to allow a known money fraud felon to open an account.  Or for a restaurant to refuse service to a reality TV star who has cameras on them at all times.  The interest is protecting their business from damage and while it may be politically motivated, the damage done would be real just the same.

Secondly:
What they're doing is forcing a boycott rather than simply having one.  Such an action is not moral as it removes choice from others.  Would it be moral to blow up an empty abortion clinic just to protest their use?  Or physically keep people from entering Wal-mart just because you don't like how they buy out mom and pop stores?

In essence, you're physically removing freedom of choice and if that's not morally wrong to you, then we have very different ideas of morality.
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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2010, 01:14:50 PM »
The reason it doesn't matter is simple: you should equate moral wrongs with legal wrongs. They are two very different things. I have no doubt that Amazon, MasterCard et al. could do any number of morally distasteful/reprehensible things without breaking the law, but that doesn't mean they are not wrong. What they are doing is wrong because they are bowing to non-legal (i.e. distinct from illegal) forms of governmental/politcal pressure. What's more, they have not been frank about the reasons for their sudden turnaround, with the exception of PayPal which has admitted there was pressure from the U.S. State Department, who told them that WikiLeaks' activity was illegal. However, the U.S. State Department has since come out and said it did not write to PayPal, and no legal charges or action have been brough against WikiLeaks in the United States. They are behaving in a manner that threatens fundamental rights and institutions which almost everyone supports.

On a personal level, I agree with all of that.  But the fact remains that it is their decision to make.  If they want to be cowardly, if they want to be put their business ahead of their morals, they can do so.  You, as a private citizen with no connection to this, cannot come out and say, "You can't do that!"

Also, I do understand the difference between a moral right and a legal right.  But we can't just discount the law here, because morality is too subjective for there to be rules without any kind of code.  If you think that what the companies are doing is immoral and therefore, they must be silenced, then maybe I think that what Wikileaks is doing is immoral and they need to be silenced.  And who says that you're right and I'm wrong?  That's why we have law.

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Are you seriously suggesting that being able to buy t-shirts or order a new credit card is more important than defending the right of press organisations to expose war crimes, atrocities and torture? Jesus Christ Saddam, if you really think that being unable to make frivolous purchases/acquisitions constitutes greater "collateral damage" than the suppression of the free press, you have some seriously skewed values.

That's not my point.  You are forcibly stopping millions of people from exercising their rights to free speech and commerce, all to protest that someone else is being deprived of free speech!  Don't you see the enormous hypocrisy there?  And if we're going to judge the morality of your vigilantism by comparing conflicting rights side by side, then where do you draw the line?  If the WikiLeaks supporters decided that the best way to protest would be to lie down in the middle of a street you drive down every day, would you support that?  What if they said they would wreck a random home every night until PayPal resumed services to WikiLeaks, and the first home they decided on was yours?

But in any case, let's be honest here.  This isn't about WikiLeaks.  This stopped being about WikiLeaks the moment 4chan became involved.  This is no longer protest.  It's not even revenge.  This is anarchy.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 01:17:31 PM by Saddam Hussein »

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Lorddave

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2010, 01:18:02 PM »
I wonder if this is the start of the first Net War.
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2010, 01:44:02 PM »
I fully support keeping Wikileaks online and available. However, does it make sense to fight censorship (and keep websites like Wikileaks online) by attacking other websites and causing them to go offline? A little hypocrisy I think.


There is a distinction to be made here. The DDoS attacks being made against the WikiLeaks site are illegal, and it's possible they have been made by non-governmental organisations. The decision to attack MasterCard, PayPal etc. is in response to their actions, not the actions of those seeking to bring down WikiLeaks.


I don't think what Paypal, Mastercard, or any of the other companies did was illegal


That remains to be seen.


or immoral.  They aren't singling out a group of people, they're singling out a single individual because of all the problems serving him causes.


What problems have WikiLeaks caused MasterCard, PayPal etc.? None directly. The problem is being caused by the government and elected officials.


It would be akin to a bank refusing to allow a known money fraud felon to open an account.


No it would not, as WikiLeaks have not been convicted of any crime.


Or for a restaurant to refuse service to a reality TV star who has cameras on them at all times.


This analogy sucks big-time, because no restaurant would do this. It would be free exposure. Moreover, the scenario is not analogous; the issue here is that the cameramen would not be paying or eating. WikiLeaks are paying customers.


Secondly:
What they're doing is forcing a boycott rather than simply having one.  Such an action is not moral as it removes choice from others.  Would it be moral to blow up an empty abortion clinic just to protest their use?  Or physically keep people from entering Wal-mart just because you don't like how they buy out mom and pop stores?


These companies are also participating in what is essentially a forced boycott. They are preventing customers from supporting WikiLeaks by blocking off their financial resources, for no good reason. And don't forget that one of the targets was the Swiss bank which froze Assange's personal account on highly dubious grounds.


In essence, you're physically removing freedom of choice and if that's not morally wrong to you, then we have very different ideas of morality.


Temporarily removing freedom of choice is a standard and indeed necessary feature of effective protest. It is a question of priorities: some freedoms are more important than others, and some are under more threat than others.


On a personal level, I agree with all of that.  But the fact remains that it is their decision to make.  If they want to be cowardly, if they want to be put their business ahead of their morals, they can do so.  You, as a private citizen with no connection to this, cannot come out and say, "You can't do that!"


That is where you are wrong. I am not a "private citizen", I am a human being first and a citizen second. I can do precisely whatever I want. Might there be consequences? Perhaps, but that is for me to judge. I do not see myself as defined by any state.


Also, I do understand the difference between a moral right and a legal right.  But we can't just discount the law here, because morality is too subjective for there to be rules without any kind of code.  If you think that what the companies are doing is immoral and therefore, they must be silenced, then maybe I think that what Wikileaks is doing is immoral and they need to be silenced.  And who says that you're right and I'm wrong?  That's why we have law.


Yes, but what we see with the attack on WikiLeaks is that the law is not being followed, and has indeed been thrown out the window. The law cannot be in play for some parties and not for others. Extra-legal (and possibly illegal) methods are being used to attack WikiLeaks. Civilians do not have the ability to put the kind of extra-legal pressure on WikiLeaks that governments have, so illegal methods are our only recourse.



That's not my point.  You are forcibly stopping millions of people from exercising their rights to free speech and commerce, all to protest that someone else is being deprived of free speech! Don't you see the enormous hypocrisy there?


In what way is free speech being affected here? As for the right to free commerce, that is precisely what those pressuring WikiLeaks have undermined. It is their protestations which are hypocritical.


And if we're going to judge the morality of your vigilantism by comparing conflicting rights side by side, then where do you draw the line?  If the WikiLeaks supporters decided that the best way to protest would be to lie down in the middle of a street you drive down every day, would you support that?  What if they said they would wreck a random home every night until PayPal resumed services to WikiLeaks, and the first home they decided on was yours?


The former is non-violent protest, and has been a mark of many independence and human rights movements throughout history, notably the Black Civil movement in the U.S. and the Indian indpendence movement. The latter is violent protest, and I do not support that except in extreme circumstances. Remember though that the U.S. was founded on such violent protest, and principally over a tax dispute.


But in any case, let's be honest here.  This isn't about WikiLeaks.  This stopped being about WikiLeaks the moment 4chan became involved.  This is no longer protest.  It's not even revenge.  This is anarchy.


I couldn't give two figs about Anonymous/4chan in general. I have not participated in any of their previous actions, even some of those which I have some sympathy with. I support this action precisely because it is related to WikiLeaks, and that is almost certainly true of many others. Is everyone involved motivated for the same legitimate reasons? Of course not, but the same could be said of any movement. Nevertheless, I believe those people are doing the right thing for the wrong reasons, and ultimately the outcome is more important than the motivation.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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General Douchebag

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2010, 02:06:15 PM »
I've had the LOIC on full blast all day, and I'm seeding the insurance file to the best of my abilities. This is the least any Wikileaks supporter can do. If I had the means to get out there and protest/riot I would, but a one-man demonstration doesn't really work when the only vehicle I can block is a snowplough, and I certainly don't want to slow them about their business.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2010, 02:08:10 PM »
BTW, sorry for the hulking post, but people kept replying while I was posting.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2010, 02:54:32 PM »
What problems have WikiLeaks caused MasterCard, PayPal etc.? None directly. The problem is being caused by the government and elected officials.

That really doesn't matter to a business.  Directly or indirectly, fairly or unfairly, association with WikiLeaks could cause them trouble in the future.

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These companies are also participating in what is essentially a forced boycott. They are preventing customers from supporting WikiLeaks by blocking off their financial resources, for no good reason. And don't forget that one of the targets was the Swiss bank which froze Assange's personal account on highly dubious grounds.

I don't know about the Swiss bank.  But the other companies aren't preventing you from supporting WikiLeaks at all.  You're free to mail Assange a check.  All the companies are doing is refusing to help him.  The Lord giveth...

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Temporarily removing freedom of choice is a standard and indeed necessary feature of effective protest. It is a question of priorities: some freedoms are more important than others, and some are under more threat than others.

At face value, you may be right.  But here's the thing, though.  Why do you get to make these important decisions?  Why not me?  I think I'd like to start making some broad declarations about what rights are more important than others.

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Yes, but what we see with the attack on WikiLeaks is that the law is not being followed, and has indeed been thrown out the window. The law cannot be in play for some parties and not for others. Extra-legal (and possibly illegal) methods are being used to attack WikiLeaks. Civilians do not have the ability to put the kind of extra-legal pressure on WikiLeaks that governments have, so illegal methods are our only recourse.

I'm not claiming that the government has clean hands in this.  But you should direct your anger at the government that's trying to illegally silence WikiLeaks, not the companies that have, at worst, folded under political pressure.

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In what way is free speech being affected here? As for the right to free commerce, that is precisely what those pressuring WikiLeaks have undermined. It is their protestations which are hypocritical.

Free speech is being affected because web sites are being taken down.  As for commerce, far more people than those in the companies themselves are hurt by this.  MasterCard customers have done nothing wrong.  Yet those of them who want to go onto the website are being punished for it.  If they take down any more websites, then even more innocent people will pay for something that they had nothing to do with.

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The former is non-violent protest, and has been a mark of many independence and human rights movements throughout history, notably the Black Civil movement in the U.S. and the Indian indpendence movement. The latter is violent protest, and I do not support that except in extreme circumstances. Remember though that the U.S. was founded on such violent protest, and principally over a tax dispute.

Remember that I said a street you drive down specifically.  You don't have the power to get WikiLeaks working, so why is the guy lying in your street?  And I don't have that power either, so why are people (with no authority to) stopping me from doing business online?  As for "violence", how do you define that?  No one is getting hurt.  It's just your home getting wrecked.  You don't seem to have a problem with wrecking someone's website, why not their home?

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I couldn't give two figs about Anonymous/4chan in general. I have not participated in any of their previous actions, even some of those which I have some sympathy with. I support this action precisely because it is related to WikiLeaks, and that is almost certainly true of many others. Is everyone involved motivated for the same legitimate reasons? Of course not, but the same could be said of any movement. Nevertheless, I believe those people are doing the right thing for the wrong reasons, and ultimately the outcome is more important than the motivation.

Actually, the motivation makes a world of difference, because for this movement to be successful, the companies will have to agree to your demands, won't they?  And whether they do or not could depend a lot on who the messenger is.  If they look at their computers and say, "Oh, look, it's the antisocial teenagers who spam tits on YouTube", do you think they're very likely to cooperate?

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sillyrob

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2010, 03:34:57 PM »
Mastercard is down? How am I going to get paid? I'm all for anti-censorship but if it gets in the way of my money then fuck them.

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2010, 03:39:49 PM »
Mastercard is down? How am I going to get paid? I'm all for anti-censorship but if it gets in the way of my money then fuck them.

Well, MasterCard's website is down.  Anyway, the bank controls your money, not them.

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sillyrob

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2010, 03:44:35 PM »
Mastercard is down? How am I going to get paid? I'm all for anti-censorship but if it gets in the way of my money then fuck them.

Well, MasterCard's website is down.  Anyway, the bank controls your money, not them.
Oh, as long as the card services aren't down, then all is good. I wasn't afraid of people taking it, I was afraid of the services being down and me not getting paid on time.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2010, 04:05:53 PM »
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/08/sarah-palin-wikileaks_n_794115.html

Quote
London-based hackers reportedly working in support of the website WikiLeaks as part of "Operation Payback" have turned their keyboards on Sarah Palin, launching a cyber-attack targeted at her fundraising arm SarahPAC, as well as the former Alaska Governor's personal credit card information.

"No wonder others are keeping silent about Assange's antics," Palin emailed ABC News, which originally reported the hacking attempt. "This is what happens when you exercise the First Amendment and speak against his sick, un-American espionage efforts."

lol.. I hope they take her down.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2010, 04:25:02 PM »
I fully support keeping Wikileaks online and available. However, does it make sense to fight censorship (and keep websites like Wikileaks online) by attacking other websites and causing them to go offline? A little hypocrisy I think.


There is a distinction to be made here. The DDoS attacks being made against the WikiLeaks site are illegal, and it's possible they have been made by non-governmental organisations. The decision to attack MasterCard, PayPal etc. is in response to their actions, not the actions of those  seeking to bring down WikiLeaks.
But it's still internet censoring Mastercard Paypal etc. by forcing the sites offline. Exactly what the umbrella groups supporting Wikileaks are very against. They're still using the same tactic they're so against even if it's a different foe and for different reasons.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2010, 04:39:02 PM »
That really doesn't matter to a business.  Directly or indirectly, fairly or unfairly, association with WikiLeaks could cause them trouble in the future.


And their business doesn't matter to me. Directly or indirectly, the censorship of WikiLeaks could cause me significant harm in the future.


I don't know about the Swiss bank.  But the other companies aren't preventing you from supporting WikiLeaks at all.  You're free to mail Assange a check.  All the companies are doing is refusing to help him.  The Lord giveth...


How am I going to send Assange a check when he doesn't have a bank account anymore? And what if the same thing happens to WikiLeaks itself? They've already cut off the means.


At face value, you may be right.  But here's the thing, though.  Why do you get to make these important decisions?  Why not me?  I think I'd like to start making some broad declarations about what rights are more important than others.


Saddam, that is precisely what you are doing, right now. Others have acted on their 'decision', and it was probably such a person that forced WikiLeaks offline.


I'm not claiming that the government has clean hands in this.  But you should direct your anger at the government that's trying to illegally silence WikiLeaks, not the companies that have, at worst, folded under political pressure.


How can I legally and effectively direct my anger at a government which I cannot vote for? I am not a U.S. citizen, and WikiLeaks is not a U.S. website, yet governments like the United States and China are exerting overt and clandestine pressure in an attempt to silence WikiLeaks. It is very difficult (if not impossible) for people like me to directly affect the policies of foreign governments. However, organisations like MasterCard, Visa and PayPal have signifiant power to do so. They have simply chosen not to use it, and instead to bow to government pressure. We are giving them a reason to resist that pressure.


Free speech is being affected because web sites are being taken down.


What do these sites have to do with free-speech? You're stretching here.


As for commerce, far more people than those in the companies themselves are hurt by this.  MasterCard customers have done nothing wrong.  Yet those of them who want to go onto the website are being punished for it.  If they take down any more websites, then even more innocent people will pay for something that they had nothing to do with.


It is unfortunate, but this is a standard and necessary feature of almost any effective form of protest.



Remember that I said a street you drive down specifically.  You don't have the power to get WikiLeaks working, so why is the guy lying in your street?  And I don't have that power either, so why are people (with no authority to) stopping me from doing business online?


All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Again, this is a standard and necessary feature of almost any effective form of protest.


As for "violence", how do you define that?  No one is getting hurt.  It's just your home getting wrecked.  You don't seem to have a problem with wrecking someone's website, why not their home?


I think we can all recognise that a distinction exists between different forms of violence. Such distinctions are also enshrined in law, something you have made a point of referring to.


Actually, the motivation makes a world of difference, because for this movement to be successful, the companies will have to agree to your demands, won't they?  And whether they do or not could depend a lot on who the messenger is.  If they look at their computers and say, "Oh, look, it's the antisocial teenagers who spam tits on YouTube", do you think they're very likely to cooperate?


First of all, I think yu're being unjustifiably judgemental. Secondly, at a certain point this went beyond the typical 'Anonymous' profile. I am just one example. The bigger it gets, the less scope there is to pretend it's a fringe movement.


But it's still internet censoring Mastercard Paypal etc. by forcing the sites offline. Exactly what the umbrella groups supporting Wikileaks are very against. They're still using the same tactic they're so against even if it's a different foe and for different reasons.


The tactics are irrelevant, it is the end goal/result which counts. The U.S. government can act in whatever way it likes to suppress free-speech, and I will oppose it. Moreover, the DDoS attacks against WikiLeaks are not really the issue. Honestly, if that were all that was going on, I wouldn't be as interested in this. It is the willingness of major and supposedly apolitical companies to crumble in the face of the slightest bit of political pressure which is problematic.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2010, 04:43:25 PM »
But causing those sites to go offline is technically surpressing free speech and an uncensored internet. So I will oppose censorship or restriction of free speech regardless of which entity tries to surpress it. Not just the government.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2010, 04:53:11 PM »
But causing those sites to go offline is technically surpressing free speech and an uncensored internet. So I will oppose censorship or restriction of free speech regardless of which entity tries to surpress it. Not just the government.


I really don't see how it is suppressing free-speech, except in the most technical sense. Moreover, I am not a believer in deontological ethical theories. If this is technically a form of suppressing free-speech, and it results in greater free-speech for everyone, then I consider the means justifiable given the end result.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2010, 05:01:46 PM »
But causing those sites to go offline is technically surpressing free speech and an uncensored internet. So I will oppose censorship or restriction of free speech regardless of which entity tries to surpress it. Not just the government.


I really don't see how it is suppressing free-speech, except in the most technical sense. Moreover, I am not a believer in deontological ethical theories. If this is technically a form of suppressing free-speech, and it results in greater free-speech for everyone, then I consider the means justifiable given the end result.
If the end result of greater freedom is most important then all focus should be on preserving Wikileaks, not attacking other websites.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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General Douchebag

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2010, 05:04:38 PM »
But causing those sites to go offline is technically surpressing free speech and an uncensored internet. So I will oppose censorship or restriction of free speech regardless of which entity tries to surpress it. Not just the government.


I really don't see how it is suppressing free-speech, except in the most technical sense. Moreover, I am not a believer in deontological ethical theories. If this is technically a form of suppressing free-speech, and it results in greater free-speech for everyone, then I consider the means justifiable given the end result.
If the end result of greater freedom is most important then all focus should be on preserving Wikileaks, not attacking other websites.

Wikileaks already has hundreds of mirrors, and the leaked cables currently exist on thousands of desktops and are being shared P2P with more by the minute, so even if all else fails the password need only be spoken and the truth will be revealed.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2010, 05:08:51 PM »
Excellent.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2010, 05:23:22 PM »
If the end result of greater freedom is most important then all focus should be on preserving Wikileaks, not attacking other websites.


If the end goal is ensuring freedom of speech, we must do what we have to in order to acheive that goal. It's a question of values. I value freedom of speech more than I value civil obedience and the upholding of the laws relevant in this case.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: Operation Payback
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2010, 05:25:48 PM »
How is attacking other websites what we must do to ensure greater freedom of speech?
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?