Are all FE'ers Creationists?

  • 22 Replies
  • 3320 Views
Are all FE'ers Creationists?
« on: November 23, 2010, 02:38:06 AM »
I was wondering the following: Are all flat earthers creationists?

To clearify what I mean I'll give a short example of possible round earth creationist/atheist theories:
A round earth creationist would say that a God created the earth, universe and life, etc.
A round earth atheist would use the influence of gravity, electromagnetism and strong/weak nuclear force on matter during a very long time to explain the formation of the current known universe. An almost infinite number of chemical processes on countless number of planets eventually formed chemical structures that we happen to call life.

Now for flat earth theorists:
A flat earth creationist would say about the same thing as a round earth creationist. Nothing wrong here right?
Now for the flat earth atheist: The earth is "special". Its form is unlike all the other celestrial bodies. All the tiny stars, the sun and the moon revolve around an axis somewhere above the earth's north pole. Conditions on this special, gravitationless, flat planet are just right for life to flourish.

This was just thought that came to mind. I can understand a flat earth creationist, but i have a very hard time understanding the flat earth atheists, if there are any.

Could some of you give some insight? I would love to hear about flat earther's beliefs. Are you a creationist or an atheist or something in between? Please explain some of you thoughts about it aswell.

Thanks in advance.

*

Vindictus

  • 5455
  • insightful personal text
Re: Are all FE'ers Creationists?
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2010, 02:41:35 AM »
Flat Earth theory itself is a belief.

*

Pongo

  • Planar Moderator
  • 6753
Re: Are all FE'ers Creationists?
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2010, 03:11:58 AM »
There are many FE atheists and we believe the earth is flat because of the evidence supporting it. You find this strange because you are conditioned to believe in a round earth. Spend some time here reading the facts and see if you don't rethink your conceptions.

Re: Are all FE'ers Creationists?
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2010, 05:17:16 AM »
There are many FE atheists and we believe the earth is flat because of the evidence supporting it. You find this strange because you are conditioned to believe in a round earth. Spend some time here reading the facts and see if you don't rethink your conceptions.

Thanks for the replies.

What I mean is that in RE stars and planets are formed all the time. As we speak new life can emerge right now on some distant planet because of chance. An atheist can say a god is not needed to explain this.

In FE the earth is special and unique, and this fits far better in the creationists view. The earth seems to be the only mass that does not have a gravitational field. The sun, moon and stars are tiny. The sun's only purpose seems to be to shine upon the earth in a spotlight manner. I can't even imagine what stars are in FET. Because everything rotates around an axis above the north pole, the earth must occupy a very special place in the universe. The existance of other earths don't seem to be possible. All this fits with a creationists view. For an atheist it is almost unimaginable for a single unique thing to exist that is so much different from all the other celestial bodies.

Perhaps if you explain your views of the universe a bit I can understand better.

*

John Davis

  • Secretary Of The Society
  • Administrator
  • 16839
  • Most Prolific Scientist, 2019
Re: Are all FE'ers Creationists?
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2010, 10:12:44 AM »
There are many FE atheists and we believe the earth is flat because of the evidence supporting it. You find this strange because you are conditioned to believe in a round earth. Spend some time here reading the facts and see if you don't rethink your conceptions.

Thanks for the replies.

What I mean is that in RE stars and planets are formed all the time. As we speak new life can emerge right now on some distant planet because of chance. An atheist can say a god is not needed to explain this.

In FE the earth is special and unique, and this fits far better in the creationists view. The earth seems to be the only mass that does not have a gravitational field. The sun, moon and stars are tiny. The sun's only purpose seems to be to shine upon the earth in a spotlight manner. I can't even imagine what stars are in FET. Because everything rotates around an axis above the north pole, the earth must occupy a very special place in the universe. The existance of other earths don't seem to be possible. All this fits with a creationists view. For an atheist it is almost unimaginable for a single unique thing to exist that is so much different from all the other celestial bodies.

Perhaps if you explain your views of the universe a bit I can understand better.
There are probably more religious flat earth groups than not.  However, a line needs to be drawn between the two groups.  Most of the religious groups run off archaic ideas and non-scientific or non-fully zetetic principles.  A distinction is drawn between these groups.  The modern flat earth movement consists of those that don't necessarily hold such questions important or even relevant.  As expected, many modern flat earthers are atheists - I'd wager the majority of them from my personal experience.

Add to it that there are several competing models in modern flat earth theory and you have a can of worms.

For example, equating my model to creationism falls flat as I hold the Universe, and more to the point the Earth, has always been. I hold normal sized planets, and I hold all planets and the earth have a gravitational pull.  I also hold its quite possible they are roughly the same size.

This is not really a question of creationism vs science. Its more a question of whether one accepts the Copernican principle, which is a misuse of mathematical induction ( and as such may or may not be valid.) While one might be hesitant to say the Earth is special, its equally ridiculous to apply what you know about a very small area of the universe, and what we see from it, to the entire universe.  Especially when you consider how much we really know about our local area.  We have no objective way to say how light travels through the space-medium.

Of course, to some extent this induction is necessary.  I think the majority of modern flat earthers will agree that this induction is taken to extreme levels at times.

Charles Fort talks of this in a more localized sense.  Theres a tendency of scientists to try to box everything into what they know rather than explore the phenomena to satisfactory level or simply state "we aren't sure what caused this, but thats not weird."  Its no surprise either.  Just look at how science is funded and developed.  Money is thrown more likely at that which explains or refutes the explained rather than that which searches for truth.

The foundations of science is important and have been forgotten.  Its not the best method to start with, and its being guided by social concerns rather than a search for truth.  Now I'm not saying all scientists are lying, or are working for money and are not concerned with truth.  I'm just saying to some extent its beyond science at this point to act objectively, at no fault of those studying it (ignoring the flaws in the scientific method.)

That said, the Cambridge model (which is covered heavily in the FAQ) is heavily influenced by Christian ideology due to its conception and roots.  This does not make it invalid, per se.  However, some ideas have crept due to the time it was conceived and the technology available at the time that need to be taken care of by proponents of that model.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 10:15:24 AM by Username »
Quantum Ab Hoc

*

Ski

  • Planar Moderator
  • 8730
  • Homines, dum docent, dispenguin.
Re: Are all FE'ers Creationists?
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2010, 12:22:14 PM »
I'm a theist (and I suppose in a general, though not fundamentalist, sense a creationist). Are you asking to what degree my religious beliefs affect my world view? Or are you just asking the atheistic parties what evidence they find persuasive?
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

*

Vindictus

  • 5455
  • insightful personal text
Re: Are all FE'ers Creationists?
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2010, 12:56:38 PM »
Thanks for the replies.

What I mean is that in RE stars and planets are formed all the time. As we speak new life can emerge right now on some distant planet because of chance. An atheist can say a god is not needed to explain this.

In FE the earth is special and unique, and this fits far better in the creationists view. The earth seems to be the only mass that does not have a gravitational field. The sun, moon and stars are tiny. The sun's only purpose seems to be to shine upon the earth in a spotlight manner. I can't even imagine what stars are in FET. Because everything rotates around an axis above the north pole, the earth must occupy a very special place in the universe. The existance of other earths don't seem to be possible. All this fits with a creationists view. For an atheist it is almost unimaginable for a single unique thing to exist that is so much different from all the other celestial bodies.

Perhaps if you explain your views of the universe a bit I can understand better.

It's another reason the theory is a bad one; trying to fit something awkward and wonky to the Universe, instead of something that clearly works.

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17767
Re: Are all FE'ers Creationists?
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2010, 05:31:45 PM »
Not all FE'ers are Creationists.

?

clovis2

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 42
Re: Are all FE'ers Creationists?
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2010, 06:24:29 PM »
I am a creationist and a Flat Earther.

?

fluffycornsnake

  • Official Member
  • 1307
Re: Are all FE'ers Creationists?
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2010, 09:35:03 PM »
There are rather a lot of things 'in between' creationism and atheism. For my FE model I pick evolutionary theism.

Re: Are all FE'ers Creationists?
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2010, 02:05:53 AM »
There are many FE atheists and we believe the earth is flat because of the evidence supporting it. You find this strange because you are conditioned to believe in a round earth. Spend some time here reading the facts and see if you don't rethink your conceptions.

Thanks for the replies.

What I mean is that in RE stars and planets are formed all the time. As we speak new life can emerge right now on some distant planet because of chance. An atheist can say a god is not needed to explain this.

In FE the earth is special and unique, and this fits far better in the creationists view. The earth seems to be the only mass that does not have a gravitational field. The sun, moon and stars are tiny. The sun's only purpose seems to be to shine upon the earth in a spotlight manner. I can't even imagine what stars are in FET. Because everything rotates around an axis above the north pole, the earth must occupy a very special place in the universe. The existance of other earths don't seem to be possible. All this fits with a creationists view. For an atheist it is almost unimaginable for a single unique thing to exist that is so much different from all the other celestial bodies.

Perhaps if you explain your views of the universe a bit I can understand better.
There are probably more religious flat earth groups than not.  However, a line needs to be drawn between the two groups.  Most of the religious groups run off archaic ideas and non-scientific or non-fully zetetic principles.  A distinction is drawn between these groups.  The modern flat earth movement consists of those that don't necessarily hold such questions important or even relevant.  As expected, many modern flat earthers are atheists - I'd wager the majority of them from my personal experience.

Add to it that there are several competing models in modern flat earth theory and you have a can of worms.

For example, equating my model to creationism falls flat as I hold the Universe, and more to the point the Earth, has always been. I hold normal sized planets, and I hold all planets and the earth have a gravitational pull.  I also hold its quite possible they are roughly the same size.

This is not really a question of creationism vs science. Its more a question of whether one accepts the Copernican principle, which is a misuse of mathematical induction ( and as such may or may not be valid.) While one might be hesitant to say the Earth is special, its equally ridiculous to apply what you know about a very small area of the universe, and what we see from it, to the entire universe.  Especially when you consider how much we really know about our local area.  We have no objective way to say how light travels through the space-medium.

Of course, to some extent this induction is necessary.  I think the majority of modern flat earthers will agree that this induction is taken to extreme levels at times.

Charles Fort talks of this in a more localized sense.  Theres a tendency of scientists to try to box everything into what they know rather than explore the phenomena to satisfactory level or simply state "we aren't sure what caused this, but thats not weird."  Its no surprise either.  Just look at how science is funded and developed.  Money is thrown more likely at that which explains or refutes the explained rather than that which searches for truth.

The foundations of science is important and have been forgotten.  Its not the best method to start with, and its being guided by social concerns rather than a search for truth.  Now I'm not saying all scientists are lying, or are working for money and are not concerned with truth.  I'm just saying to some extent its beyond science at this point to act objectively, at no fault of those studying it (ignoring the flaws in the scientific method.)

That said, the Cambridge model (which is covered heavily in the FAQ) is heavily influenced by Christian ideology due to its conception and roots.  This does not make it invalid, per se.  However, some ideas have crept due to the time it was conceived and the technology available at the time that need to be taken care of by proponents of that model.

Thank you for your input. This is what I'm interested in.

Although slightly off topic, I want to ask something about you holding that the earth has always been and that it has a gravitational pull. If you start out with a body with any shape (flat, cubic, etc.) that has a very large mass, it will eventually crumble and form a sphere, given enough time. That is how gravity works according to the most common views. All paricles want to be as close to the center as possible. Could you explain your ideas a bit about this?

Re: Are all FE'ers Creationists?
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2010, 02:20:54 AM »
I'm a theist (and I suppose in a general, though not fundamentalist, sense a creationist). Are you asking to what degree my religious beliefs affect my world view? Or are you just asking the atheistic parties what evidence they find persuasive?

What I'm asking lies closer to the latter. I'm interested in FE atheists thoughts on how the state of the universe and the earth came to be in its current condition. In my opinion FET fits better with a creationists viewpoint, that is why I want input from different atheist FE viewpoints.

*

James

  • Flat Earther
  • The Elder Ones
  • 5613
Re: Are all FE'ers Creationists?
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2010, 04:13:55 PM »
I am a Flat Earther, but I am not a creationist. I a man of science.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

Re: Are all FE'ers Creationists?
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2010, 07:20:17 AM »
yeah right :D You like to call yourself like that :) But truth is - you are one crazy american (I personally love usa - KFC, MCDonald, Capitalism), but you are so typical ;)

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 41938
Re: Are all FE'ers Creationists?
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2010, 07:37:59 AM »
yeah right :D You like to call yourself like that :) But truth is - you are one crazy american (I personally love usa - KFC, MCDonald, Capitalism), but you are so typical ;)

Check me if I'm wrong, but James is a Brit, not an American.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Roundy the Truthinessist

  • Flat Earth TheFLAMETHROWER!
  • The Elder Ones
  • 27043
  • I'm the boss.
Re: Are all FE'ers Creationists?
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2010, 02:53:46 PM »
yeah right :D You like to call yourself like that :) But truth is - you are one crazy american (I personally love usa - KFC, MCDonald, Capitalism), but you are so typical ;)

Check me if I'm wrong, but James is a Brit, not an American.

You are correct  :D, but what do you expect from a person of the Polish persuasion?  :) I mean, I personally love Poland - kielbasa, Chopin, the Warsaw Ghetto - but he is so typical  ;)
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 41938
Re: Are all FE'ers Creationists?
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2010, 05:15:30 PM »
yeah right :D You like to call yourself like that :) But truth is - you are one crazy american (I personally love usa - KFC, MCDonald, Capitalism), but you are so typical ;)

Check me if I'm wrong, but James is a Brit, not an American.

You are correct  :D, but what do you expect from a person of the Polish persuasion?  :) I mean, I personally love Poland - kielbasa, Chopin, the Warsaw Ghetto - but he is so typical  ;)

Ahem...  I happen to be of the Polish persuasion.  Trust me, what Americans call kielbasa is nothing like the real thing that you get in Poland.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

James

  • Flat Earther
  • The Elder Ones
  • 5613
Re: Are all FE'ers Creationists?
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2010, 07:32:35 AM »
I consider myself a citizen of the (flat) world.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

*

Lord Wilmore

  • Vice President
  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 12107
Re: Are all FE'ers Creationists?
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2010, 03:01:47 PM »
Indeed, thanks to the wonders of the internet we are all citizens of the Planar Village.


Oh, and I am an atheist.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

*

John Davis

  • Secretary Of The Society
  • Administrator
  • 16839
  • Most Prolific Scientist, 2019
Re: Are all FE'ers Creationists?
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2010, 10:42:15 PM »
There are many FE atheists and we believe the earth is flat because of the evidence supporting it. You find this strange because you are conditioned to believe in a round earth. Spend some time here reading the facts and see if you don't rethink your conceptions.

Thanks for the replies.

What I mean is that in RE stars and planets are formed all the time. As we speak new life can emerge right now on some distant planet because of chance. An atheist can say a god is not needed to explain this.

In FE the earth is special and unique, and this fits far better in the creationists view. The earth seems to be the only mass that does not have a gravitational field. The sun, moon and stars are tiny. The sun's only purpose seems to be to shine upon the earth in a spotlight manner. I can't even imagine what stars are in FET. Because everything rotates around an axis above the north pole, the earth must occupy a very special place in the universe. The existance of other earths don't seem to be possible. All this fits with a creationists view. For an atheist it is almost unimaginable for a single unique thing to exist that is so much different from all the other celestial bodies.

Perhaps if you explain your views of the universe a bit I can understand better.
There are probably more religious flat earth groups than not.  However, a line needs to be drawn between the two groups.  Most of the religious groups run off archaic ideas and non-scientific or non-fully zetetic principles.  A distinction is drawn between these groups.  The modern flat earth movement consists of those that don't necessarily hold such questions important or even relevant.  As expected, many modern flat earthers are atheists - I'd wager the majority of them from my personal experience.

Add to it that there are several competing models in modern flat earth theory and you have a can of worms.

For example, equating my model to creationism falls flat as I hold the Universe, and more to the point the Earth, has always been. I hold normal sized planets, and I hold all planets and the earth have a gravitational pull.  I also hold its quite possible they are roughly the same size.

This is not really a question of creationism vs science. Its more a question of whether one accepts the Copernican principle, which is a misuse of mathematical induction ( and as such may or may not be valid.) While one might be hesitant to say the Earth is special, its equally ridiculous to apply what you know about a very small area of the universe, and what we see from it, to the entire universe.  Especially when you consider how much we really know about our local area.  We have no objective way to say how light travels through the space-medium.

Of course, to some extent this induction is necessary.  I think the majority of modern flat earthers will agree that this induction is taken to extreme levels at times.

Charles Fort talks of this in a more localized sense.  Theres a tendency of scientists to try to box everything into what they know rather than explore the phenomena to satisfactory level or simply state "we aren't sure what caused this, but thats not weird."  Its no surprise either.  Just look at how science is funded and developed.  Money is thrown more likely at that which explains or refutes the explained rather than that which searches for truth.

The foundations of science is important and have been forgotten.  Its not the best method to start with, and its being guided by social concerns rather than a search for truth.  Now I'm not saying all scientists are lying, or are working for money and are not concerned with truth.  I'm just saying to some extent its beyond science at this point to act objectively, at no fault of those studying it (ignoring the flaws in the scientific method.)

That said, the Cambridge model (which is covered heavily in the FAQ) is heavily influenced by Christian ideology due to its conception and roots.  This does not make it invalid, per se.  However, some ideas have crept due to the time it was conceived and the technology available at the time that need to be taken care of by proponents of that model.

Thank you for your input. This is what I'm interested in.

Although slightly off topic, I want to ask something about you holding that the earth has always been and that it has a gravitational pull. If you start out with a body with any shape (flat, cubic, etc.) that has a very large mass, it will eventually crumble and form a sphere, given enough time. That is how gravity works according to the most common views. All paricles want to be as close to the center as possible. Could you explain your ideas a bit about this?
Sorry for the late reply, if you are indeed even still here.

I believe the earth is an infinite plane.  Horizontally, there is no center for it to collapse to.
Quantum Ab Hoc

*

EnglshGentleman

  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 9548
Re: Are all FE'ers Creationists?
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2010, 11:06:33 PM »
<- Atheist.

So no. We are not all Creationists.

?

General Disarray

  • Official Member
  • 5039
  • Magic specialist
Re: Are all FE'ers Creationists?
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2010, 11:36:19 PM »
They are also not all FE'ers.
You don't want to make an enemy of me. I'm very powerful.

*

Supertails

  • 4387
  • what do i put here
Re: Are all FE'ers Creationists?
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2010, 12:05:24 AM »
Sorry for the late reply, if you are indeed even still here.

I believe the earth is an infinite plane.  Horizontally, there is no center for it to collapse to.
Wait, wait.  So NOW how do you explain satellite photos and all, and what's been seen from space?
Recently listened to: