Any bets?

But we already have thousands of unemployed people here covered by labor laws.  Why aren't they boosting spending or reducing unemployment?

Because no one, not rich investors nor the US government, wants to invest in debt-laced, lazy Americans. From a purely cultural standpoint, Mexicans have been shown to work shittier jobs better than their white counterparts, and they're all generally debt free. One of the cornerstones of my idea is both investments in infrastructure to prevent any shock from the rapid increase in population, and private investors being able to hire cheap labor without fear of social or legal repercussions.

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 18, 2010, 01:05:21 PM

Something definitely needs to be done about the illegal immigrants, but I'm not so sure this is the thing.

What do you have against immigrants?

Is it just the fact that they're illegal? If the US granted citizenship to all comers after filling out a form would you feel okay about it?

Is it because they're taking jobs, willing to work harder than you for less money?

Or do you just have something against people with a different color of skin?

I don't have anything against immigrants.

Yes, it is the fact that they came into the country illegally.  I don't know what the ramifications would be if the US granted citizenship to all comers, but I do believe they need to find a way to make things better than they are currently.  I wouldn't be against making it easier for people to obtain legal citizenship.

I don't believe illegal immigrants are taking jobs away from legal immigrants/citizens.  I have done some of those jobs illegal immigrants do (picking fruit, cleaning houses) and I know they are jobs that most US citizens aren't willing to do for the amount of money paid.  I think it is horrible that we are willing to overpay for a bunch of cheap plastic crap we don't need, but we won't pay a fair price for produce. Mexican migrant workers work their asses off so we can eat cheap food, and the corporate farms can make a shitload of money.

Asking if it is because they have different color skin is a stupid question.

@Franklin and Saddam

I don't know if boosting spending would help the economy much.  Most of the shit they want us to buy was made somewhere else. 

Quote from: Saddam Hussein on November 26, 2010, 09:35:41 PM

But we already have thousands of unemployed people here covered by labor laws.  Why aren't they boosting spending or reducing unemployment?

Because no one, not rich investors nor the US government, wants to invest in debt-laced, lazy Americans. From a purely cultural standpoint, Mexicans have been shown to work shittier jobs better than their white counterparts, and they're all generally debt free. One of the cornerstones of my idea is both investments in infrastructure to prevent any shock from the rapid increase in population, and private investors being able to hire cheap labor without fear of social or legal repercussions.

Not better, Franklin.  Cheaper.  The only reason that illegal immigrants are seen to help the economy is because of the fact that they are abused and underpaid.  An illegal immigrant does not have the luxury of getting a higher education or a better job the way an American does.  If an unscrupulous businessman is willing to pay them an illegal rate, they will take it because they have no other option, not because it's somehow in their nature to enjoy shitty jobs.  To suggest otherwise makes me wonder who is the real racist here.

Not better, Franklin.  Cheaper.  The only reason that illegal immigrants are seen to help the economy is because of the fact that they are abused and underpaid.  An illegal immigrant does not have the luxury of getting a higher education or a better job the way an American does.  If an unscrupulous businessman is willing to pay them an illegal rate, they will take it because they have no other option, not because it's somehow in their nature to enjoy shitty jobs.  To suggest otherwise makes me wonder who is the real racist here.

The reason why they are better workers can be any number of reasons, including, but, in my personal, anecdotal experiences, is not limited to, their cheap wages.

But they aren't "better" workers.

Franklin, they're not necessarily better workers, they're just much less likely to complain about shitty working conditions because they're here illegally.  This leaves them open to terrible abuse.

Exactly.  It is the "illegal" part of "illegal immigrant" that provides the economic benefit, not the "immigrant" part.

But they aren't "better" workers.

If someone is cheaper, they are a better worker, from a supervisors point of view.

Also, in my observation, immigrants are often capable of outworking their self-entitled white counterparts, in my opinion due to pride, which is culturally more prevalent in Hispanic culture than modern American culture.

If someone is cheaper, they are a better worker, from a supervisors point of view.

Right, and that's why employment laws aren't made from a business perspective.

Also, in my observation, immigrants are often capable of outworking their self-entitled white counterparts, in my opinion due to pride, which is culturally more prevalent in Hispanic culture than modern American culture.

No, it's because their only other option is to go back to Mexico, where things are worse.  That is not pride.  That is desperation, which I can assure you is not an exclusively Hispanic trait.

Let me ask you something.  How many legal Hispanic-Americans do you know who work shitty jobs for below minimum wage pay?

Let me ask you something.  How many legal Hispanic-Americans do you know who work shitty jobs for below minimum wage pay?

In my observations of working in kitchens snagging someone who's just off the boat is generally much better than getting some local kid when the work is down at the dishpit/cleaning level.

Berny
Dishwasher is Uber important

Let me ask you something.  How many legal Hispanic-Americans do you know who work shitty jobs for below minimum wage pay?

I actually know legal Hispanic-Americans who work shitty jobs for at, or slightly above, minimum wage. (Considering it's illegal to pay under minimum wage). They work quite hard, and out work the majority, if not all, of their European descended counterparts.

Quote from: Saddam Hussein on November 28, 2010, 12:40:05 PM

Let me ask you something.  How many legal Hispanic-Americans do you know who work shitty jobs for below minimum wage pay?

I actually know legal Hispanic-Americans who work shitty jobs for at, or slightly above, minimum wage. (Considering it's illegal to pay under minimum wage). They work quite hard, and out work the majority, if not all, of their European descended counterparts.

And I know plenty of Hispanic-Americans who work decent jobs, and are far lazier than their European descended counterparts.

And I know plenty of Hispanic-Americans who work decent jobs, and are far lazier than their European descended counterparts.

Spaniards?

Quote from: Saddam Hussein on November 28, 2010, 12:40:05 PM

Let me ask you something.  How many legal Hispanic-Americans do you know who work shitty jobs for below minimum wage pay?

I actually know legal Hispanic-Americans who work shitty jobs for at, or slightly above, minimum wage. (Considering it's illegal to pay under minimum wage). They work quite hard, and out work the majority, if not all, of their European descended counterparts.

Didn't you already agree that it is the fact that they work for below minimum wage that makes illegal immigrants "better" choices than legal Americans?  I'm not going to have a ridiculous debate with you on how race affects workmanship.  Anecdotal evidence goes both ways.

Didn't you already agree that it is the fact that they work for below minimum wage that makes illegal immigrants "better" choices than legal Americans?

I said it was one of many factors.

I'm not going to have a ridiculous debate with you on how race affects workmanship.

What about culture and past histories? Immigrants tend to be more accepting of the idea of the "American Dream", because they have often lived the alternative to living in America. This makes them more appreciative of this nation, and the opportunities it has, in contrast to "native" Americans.

Do you think it's OK for corporations to take advantage of illegal immigrants?  I don't understand the point you're trying to make here, Franklin.  You say from the point of view of the supervisor that a worker who will work harder for less money is a better worker, but the supervisor doesn't give a shit how much the workers are paid, as the supervisor is a paid employee.  It's the business owner who benefits from the cheap labor.  The business owner also benefits by not having to pay taxes for the undocumented workers, which doesn't help this country either. 

Now it seems like you're arguing that immigrants make better workers because they believe in the "American Dream".  I don't know what this actually has to do with illegal immigrants.  They are looking for a better life, obviously, but by not being in the country legally they're denied real success.  It's their children who end up living the dream, but they're not immigrants if they were born here. 

American arrogance...
Who died and said that only white people got to live in this country?

American arrogance...
Who died and said that only white people got to live in this country?

That makes no sense.  At all.

Also, I agree with SCG.  I don't know what your point is, Franklin.  Illegal immigrants work shitty jobs for illegal rates because they have no other option, not because they're more "appreciative of this nation".  If they had a better option, they would take it, and for you to deny that would be more racist than any post in this thread so far.

Also, I agree with SCG.  I don't know what your point is, Franklin.  Illegal immigrants work shitty jobs for illegal rates because they have no other option, not because they're more "appreciative of this nation".  If they had a better option, they would take it, and for you to deny that would be more racist than any post in this thread so far.

There are low wages that are legal, such as $7.25 an hour. Illegal immigrants are more willing to take those as well. That is one, of many, factors that make them better employees.

Quote from: Saddam Hussein on December 11, 2010, 09:28:00 PM

Also, I agree with SCG.  I don't know what your point is, Franklin.  Illegal immigrants work shitty jobs for illegal rates because they have no other option, not because they're more "appreciative of this nation".  If they had a better option, they would take it, and for you to deny that would be more racist than any post in this thread so far.

There are low wages that are legal, such as $7.25 an hour. Illegal immigrants are more willing to take those as well. That is one, of many, factors that make them better employees.

And you don't think that native Americans would take that job, if the alternative was nothing?

Quote from: Benjamin Franklin on December 11, 2010, 10:23:22 PM

Quote from: Saddam Hussein on December 11, 2010, 09:28:00 PM

Also, I agree with SCG.  I don't know what your point is, Franklin.  Illegal immigrants work shitty jobs for illegal rates because they have no other option, not because they're more "appreciative of this nation".  If they had a better option, they would take it, and for you to deny that would be more racist than any post in this thread so far.

There are low wages that are legal, such as $7.25 an hour. Illegal immigrants are more willing to take those as well. That is one, of many, factors that make them better employees.

And you don't think that native Americans would take that job, if the alternative was nothing?

Often not, considering many Native Americans simply suck off money from their tribe and the government. It's a rampant problem in the Midwest.

Very funny.  The only jobs that white Americans simply "won't take" on principle are jobs where the boss exploits the workers by paying them a illegal rate.

Franklin, does your family run a sweatshop?

Very funny.  The only jobs that white Americans simply "won't take" on principle are jobs where the boss exploits the workers by paying them a illegal rate.

That's a bold claim. Not only are you generalizing all white Americans, you're also deviating strongly from reality. A great example is a fast food job. I'm sure that you have heard people say that they'd "never work a fast food job". Shit, maybe you've even said it yourself. White people tend away from these jobs because they feel it is "below them", while minorities, often those of Mexican descent, end up working these jobs instead. These jobs pay legal wages, but are viewed as "unworthy" by many white Americans.

Quote from: Saddam Hussein on December 12, 2010, 09:01:13 AM

Very funny.  The only jobs that white Americans simply "won't take" on principle are jobs where the boss exploits the workers by paying them a illegal rate.

That's a bold claim. Not only are you generalizing all white Americans, you're also deviating strongly from reality. A great example is a fast food job. I'm sure that you have heard people say that they'd "never work a fast food job". Shit, maybe you've even said it yourself. White people tend away from these jobs because they feel it is "below them", while minorities, often those of Mexican descent, end up working these jobs instead. These jobs pay legal wages, but are viewed as "unworthy" by many white Americans.

How do you know that it's not just a matter of choice? I mean I will never work a fast food job, because I can work somewhere with better pay. But if I had to choose between fast food job and not getting any pay at all I would be the first in line for an application.

How do you know that it's not just a matter of choice? I mean I will never work a fast food job, because I can work somewhere with better pay. But if I had to choose between fast food job and not getting any pay at all I would be the first in line for an application.

I'll concede this is a factor for some, but I know of numerous white people who are unemployed, but refuse to apply at fast food places. These same people also have no greater prospects than fast food. It's a very common trend in young, non-college bound white society.

Quote from: Beorn on December 12, 2010, 01:33:43 PM

How do you know that it's not just a matter of choice? I mean I will never work a fast food job, because I can work somewhere with better pay. But if I had to choose between fast food job and not getting any pay at all I would be the first in line for an application.

I'll concede this is a factor for some, but I know of numerous white people who are unemployed, but refuse to apply at fast food places. These same people also have no greater prospects than fast food. It's a very common trend in young, non-college bound white society.

Really? What do they live off?

Quote from: Saddam Hussein on December 12, 2010, 09:01:13 AM

Very funny.  The only jobs that white Americans simply "won't take" on principle are jobs where the boss exploits the workers by paying them a illegal rate.

That's a bold claim. Not only are you generalizing all white Americans, you're also deviating strongly from reality. A great example is a fast food job. I'm sure that you have heard people say that they'd "never work a fast food job". Shit, maybe you've even said it yourself. White people tend away from these jobs because they feel it is "below them", while minorities, often those of Mexican descent, end up working these jobs instead. These jobs pay legal wages, but are viewed as "unworthy" by many white Americans.

The people who say those kinds of things usually already have jobs themselves.  I have yet to meet an unemployed career snob, with the exception of out-of-work professionals.  If an unskilled American is looking for work urgently, I don't think they're going to just turn their nose up at fast food work if the alternative is to sit at home and starve.

As for the examples you're talking about, don't the people in charge of distributing unemployment benefits check to see if there are available jobs?

Really? What do they live off?

Parents, friends, debt, crime, etc. It's quite easy to survive without a job.

As for the examples you're talking about, don't the people in charge of distributing unemployment benefits check to see if there are available jobs?

If you've had any experience with unemployment benefits, it's quite easy to fake the information they require.

If they're just living a life of casual mooching, then getting a job obviously isn't very important to them.  That has less to do with disgust at working in a fast food job than it has to do with their general laziness.  And laziness is not a trait exclusive to white people any more than desperation is to Hispanics.