Violations of Freedom

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Raist

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Violations of Freedom
« on: November 15, 2010, 06:20:12 AM »
In my grandfather's time they locked up the japanese and german immigrants during world war II without trial or evidence of wrongdoing. In my dad's time being called a communist got you put in front of a kangaroo court that meant the end of your career even if you were deemed "innocent" or simply blacklisted so your career ended on its own.

With these things in mind I have a few questions. With these lessons are we just as capable of committing these kinds of atrocities again, and have we already matched these violations with places like gitmo, and the signing of the patriot act. Of course both of these questions are subjective, but I'd like to hear some of the smarter members inputs, and some of the trollier members trolls (wardogg).

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2010, 06:32:37 AM »
I think we are absolutely capable of doing such things all over again, if we aren't already. The detention of Japanese immigrants in WW2, blacklisting of left-wingers etc. seem terrible now, but at the time most people considered them necessary, even reasonable courses of action. The 'for the safety of our country' line has already been used to defend torture, the removal of civil liberties and other abuses.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Raist

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2010, 06:36:57 AM »
I think we are absolutely capable of doing such things all over again, if we aren't already. The detention of Japanese immigrants in WW2, blacklisting of left-wingers etc. seem terrible now, but at the time most people considered them necessary, even reasonable courses of action. The 'for the safety of our country' line has already been used to defend torture, the removal of civil liberties and other abuses.

That's what my thoughts were, I thought this thread could be a chance to look at what is currently going on and see what our kids will look back on and be ashamed of.


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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2010, 07:30:52 AM »
In Britain we have torture (Oh no we don't - Says MI5), extraordinary rendition, 28 day pre-charge detention, Control orders, the unenforcable ban on photographs of public building and members of the police, stop-and-search orders, arrests for 'religious hatred' (i.e. using your free speech)

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2010, 08:14:12 AM »
In my grandfather's time they locked up the japanese and german immigrants during world war II without trial or evidence of wrongdoing. In my dad's time being called a communist got you put in front of a kangaroo court that meant the end of your career even if you were deemed "innocent" or simply blacklisted so your career ended on its own.

With these things in mind I have a few questions. With these lessons are we just as capable of committing these kinds of atrocities again, and have we already matched these violations with places like gitmo, and the signing of the patriot act. Of course both of these questions are subjective, but I'd like to hear some of the smarter members inputs, and some of the trollier members trolls (wardogg).

Here's the problem.  Its the type of warfare we are in now.  Back in WWII we as a country hated other countries.  After Peal Harbor if you were Japanese, you were the enemy.  Same with the Germans.  Which is why the race as a whole was suspect.  The bombings of those times were all encompassing.  Everyone caught a bomb.  Entire cities were destroyed for the greater good of the battle.  Nowadays, the warfare is something totally different.  When we rolled into Iraq it wasnt a kill all environment.  You had to be careful and follow all the rules of engagement so as to minimize the civilian casualties. 

Which brings us to the current problem.  Muslims extremists.  They dont seem to care who gets killed.  Its not like they are just attacking military installations here.  They are hitting civilians.  And the number of extremists are getting larger and larger.  So at what point does it become all muslims and not just the extremists.  How are we supposed to know the good ones from the bad?  Wait until they kill thousands of our friends and family before anything is done about them?  I dont know the answer to that quesiton.

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Trekky0623

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2010, 08:33:31 AM »
I disagree. Yes, there was a team mentality where is was "Americans v. Germans", but also in World War II, there was a sense of the importance of tactics rather than just blindly shooting. When you compare combat in World War II with that of Vietnam onwards, in World War II, the practice was aim at target, fire. In Vietnam, the combat changed to shoot at movement. I will admit that this Vietnam mentality is not as present in the middle eastern wars, but there is still a lack of purpose in the combat mentality.

I don't know if I'm making any sense or not. I sort of just rambled.

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Eddy Baby

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2010, 08:47:58 AM »
I think we will always be capable of atrocities. We seem to always be thinking of new ones. I hope one day we find an alien race to hate on so we can be united.

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Death-T

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2010, 09:34:28 AM »
In Vietnam, the combat changed to shoot at movement.

My father disagrees with you. Where is your proof of said claim, because my Dad has about three tours, fourty years of reflection, and a position within the DOD to count against you. I admit that warfare did become very hectic and confusing over there, but I hardly think that gives you the right to say that the entire combat focus of our armed forces became - ' shoot at movement. ' Saying that tactics became bogged down in Vietnam is fair to say, to say there were no tactics and that 'blind shooting' was the order of the day is insulting.
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Trekky0623

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2010, 09:38:29 AM »
In Vietnam, the combat changed to shoot at movement.

My father disagrees with you. Where is your proof of said claim, because my Dad has about three tours, fourty years of reflection, and a position within the DOD to count against you. I admit that warfare did become very hectic and confusing over there, but I hardly think that gives you the right to say that the entire combat focus of our armed forces became - ' shoot at movement. ' Saying that tactics became bogged down in Vietnam is fair to say, to say there were no tactics and that 'blind shooting' was the order of the day is insulting.

I meant no disrespect, and maybe I worded that a little harshly. However, you have to admit that the tactics changed from staying in one place, aiming, and shooting in order to gain an advantage to going through the jungle/desert to seek out and kill the enemy. Another way to word that is that the objectives changed from land control of key points and defensive positions to scouting out and destroying the enemy.

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Raist

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2010, 01:35:07 PM »
In my grandfather's time they locked up the japanese and german immigrants during world war II without trial or evidence of wrongdoing. In my dad's time being called a communist got you put in front of a kangaroo court that meant the end of your career even if you were deemed "innocent" or simply blacklisted so your career ended on its own.

With these things in mind I have a few questions. With these lessons are we just as capable of committing these kinds of atrocities again, and have we already matched these violations with places like gitmo, and the signing of the patriot act. Of course both of these questions are subjective, but I'd like to hear some of the smarter members inputs, and some of the trollier members trolls (wardogg).

Here's the problem.  Its the type of warfare we are in now.  Back in WWII we as a country hated other countries.  After Peal Harbor if you were Japanese, you were the enemy.  Same with the Germans.  Which is why the race as a whole was suspect.  The bombings of those times were all encompassing.  Everyone caught a bomb.  Entire cities were destroyed for the greater good of the battle.  Nowadays, the warfare is something totally different.  When we rolled into Iraq it wasnt a kill all environment.  You had to be careful and follow all the rules of engagement so as to minimize the civilian casualties. 

Which brings us to the current problem.  Muslims extremists.  They dont seem to care who gets killed.  Its not like they are just attacking military installations here.  They are hitting civilians.  And the number of extremists are getting larger and larger.  So at what point does it become all muslims and not just the extremists.  How are we supposed to know the good ones from the bad?  Wait until they kill thousands of our friends and family before anything is done about them?  I dont know the answer to that quesiton.

Just like we didn't know the good japanese from the bad? Just like we didn't know the good germans from the bad so we just bombed everything?

Warrdog, your problem is you seem to want to go back into the direction of total warfare which is fine when you're fighting somewhere else, but it it's a rather fucked up strategy.

Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2010, 04:35:14 PM »
If you consider things like the Patriot Act to be atrocities, it's a testament to how far we have come.
The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are too strong to be broken. -Samuel Johnson

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Death-T

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2010, 09:45:06 AM »
I meant no disrespect, and maybe I worded that a little harshly. However, you have to admit that the tactics changed from staying in one place, aiming, and shooting in order to gain an advantage to going through the jungle/desert to seek out and kill the enemy. Another way to word that is that the objectives changed from land control of key points and defensive positions to scouting out and destroying the enemy.

No...... that's still wrong. South Vietnam, in essense, became one large tract of land that the US had to hold ("land control of key points") in order to hold back Charlie. The majority of the war, for the US, was highly defensive in nature with offensive actions, such as bombing and patrols, were aimed at stopping attacks before they occur. Many times the US would establish bases in key areas of activity ("land control of key points"- Khe Sanh) to hold back Charlie and otherwise give him a bloody nose when Charlie was on the move to attack and/or resupply the 'Cong. Indeed, you only have to look at Tet of '68 to see how the US was mainly focused on keeping territory, but using the USAF as the main offensive weapon; however, this was only meant to cripple Charlie's ability to attack and force him on the negotiating table. And even then, their rules of engagement were very conservative and my Dad even recounts times when PT boats on the Mekong Delta had to ask for permission to fire even after being fired upon. Vietnam, for the US, was HIGHLY defensive in nature and focused on keeping key areas in SV under their control and eventually force Charlie to the negotiating table.

Trekky - where the hell are you getting your views? What book? Movie? Presentation? Scholarly Paper? Link?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 09:49:23 AM by Death-T »
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Trekky0623

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2010, 11:12:24 AM »
I meant no disrespect, and maybe I worded that a little harshly. However, you have to admit that the tactics changed from staying in one place, aiming, and shooting in order to gain an advantage to going through the jungle/desert to seek out and kill the enemy. Another way to word that is that the objectives changed from land control of key points and defensive positions to scouting out and destroying the enemy.

No...... that's still wrong. South Vietnam, in essense, became one large tract of land that the US had to hold ("land control of key points") in order to hold back Charlie. The majority of the war, for the US, was highly defensive in nature with offensive actions, such as bombing and patrols, were aimed at stopping attacks before they occur. Many times the US would establish bases in key areas of activity ("land control of key points"- Khe Sanh) to hold back Charlie and otherwise give him a bloody nose when Charlie was on the move to attack and/or resupply the 'Cong. Indeed, you only have to look at Tet of '68 to see how the US was mainly focused on keeping territory, but using the USAF as the main offensive weapon; however, this was only meant to cripple Charlie's ability to attack and force him on the negotiating table. And even then, their rules of engagement were very conservative and my Dad even recounts times when PT boats on the Mekong Delta had to ask for permission to fire even after being fired upon. Vietnam, for the US, was HIGHLY defensive in nature and focused on keeping key areas in SV under their control and eventually force Charlie to the negotiating table.

Trekky - where the hell are you getting your views? What book? Movie? Presentation? Scholarly Paper? Link?

I don't know, maybe I'm just retarded. It just seems that tactics have changed since World War II, but I can't really express how. And it also seems to me that those changes have been for the worse.

And again, I may be disastrously wrong, because I really have no idea what I am talking about. This is just my own personal opinion that I came up with. However, because of this thread, I may change that opinion.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2010, 11:48:49 AM »
In my grandfather's time they locked up the japanese and german immigrants during world war II without trial or evidence of wrongdoing. In my dad's time being called a communist got you put in front of a kangaroo court that meant the end of your career even if you were deemed "innocent" or simply blacklisted so your career ended on its own.

With these things in mind I have a few questions. With these lessons are we just as capable of committing these kinds of atrocities again, and have we already matched these violations with places like gitmo, and the signing of the patriot act. Of course both of these questions are subjective, but I'd like to hear some of the smarter members inputs, and some of the trollier members trolls (wardogg).

Here's the problem.  Its the type of warfare we are in now.  Back in WWII we as a country hated other countries.  After Peal Harbor if you were Japanese, you were the enemy.  Same with the Germans.  Which is why the race as a whole was suspect.  The bombings of those times were all encompassing.  Everyone caught a bomb.  Entire cities were destroyed for the greater good of the battle.  Nowadays, the warfare is something totally different.  When we rolled into Iraq it wasnt a kill all environment.  You had to be careful and follow all the rules of engagement so as to minimize the civilian casualties. 

Which brings us to the current problem.  Muslims extremists.  They dont seem to care who gets killed.  Its not like they are just attacking military installations here.  They are hitting civilians.  And the number of extremists are getting larger and larger.  So at what point does it become all muslims and not just the extremists.  How are we supposed to know the good ones from the bad?  Wait until they kill thousands of our friends and family before anything is done about them?  I dont know the answer to that quesiton.

Are you suggesting we start indescriminately killing all muslims we come accross?

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Death-T

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2010, 12:15:51 PM »
I don't know, maybe I'm just retarded. It just seems that tactics have changed since World War II, but I can't really express how. And it also seems to me that those changes have been for the worse.

And again, I may be disastrously wrong, because I really have no idea what I am talking about. This is just my own personal opinion that I came up with. However, because of this thread, I may change that opinion.

They did change, no doubt about that. But that's just because of the agenda and actual objectives of the war in question. The US's objectives and goals in Vietnam were radically different then those of World War 2. World War 2 was a fairly straight forward affair with very little ground breaking in terms of objectives and goals, but Vietnam was relatively virgin ground for the US military and none of it's strengths really counted in the way they wanted to.

For instance, look at Operation Iraqi Freedom. Now, the invasion can be correlated (Note to all military history buffs like me, I know I'm doing a bit of a stretch in comparing the goals, objectives, and tactics of Iraq with WW 2, but bear with me) to traditional WW 2 era battle. Large, mobile forces engaging eachother in set-piece battle. The tactics of which were nearly identical with World War 2 era tactics and the same principals and knowledge which would have been forefront in the US forces in Vietnam War. As shown, the US military is VERY good at these tactics and absolutely crushed the enemy in a manner of weeks. We never abandoned the lessons and tactics of WW 2.

You see the problem with your view? Vietnam was an entirely different situation and we really couldn't use our well known tactics to our stength, so we tried new ones without abandoning the lessons learned from WW 2. We couldn't amass a large body of troops and tanks and roll on to NV for obvious reasons. Indeed, it's a fairly well known fact that the US was close to victory many times in Vietnam and nearly had to have the stomach and political will to end it in our favor. However, due to some faulty military thinking (war of attrition) and being hog-tied by politics - we didn't and we lost.

There was a change in Vietnam, but it was merely the US military trying to adapt to the situation, which, in may ways, it did quite well considering the circumstances. It was only through a combination of bad politics, lack of political will, and a few bad military thinkers that we lost. To this day, me and a lot of other military buffs are still baffled at how the US lost the war, when they had been close so many times. Which makes the fact we left behind so many of our POWs behind all the more sad. 
" Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. " - Albert Einstein

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Trekky0623

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2010, 01:12:35 PM »
I don't know, maybe I'm just retarded. It just seems that tactics have changed since World War II, but I can't really express how. And it also seems to me that those changes have been for the worse.

And again, I may be disastrously wrong, because I really have no idea what I am talking about. This is just my own personal opinion that I came up with. However, because of this thread, I may change that opinion.

They did change, no doubt about that. But that's just because of the agenda and actual objectives of the war in question. The US's objectives and goals in Vietnam were radically different then those of World War 2. World War 2 was a fairly straight forward affair with very little ground breaking in terms of objectives and goals, but Vietnam was relatively virgin ground for the US military and none of it's strengths really counted in the way they wanted to.

For instance, look at Operation Iraqi Freedom. Now, the invasion can be correlated (Note to all military history buffs like me, I know I'm doing a bit of a stretch in comparing the goals, objectives, and tactics of Iraq with WW 2, but bear with me) to traditional WW 2 era battle. Large, mobile forces engaging eachother in set-piece battle. The tactics of which were nearly identical with World War 2 era tactics and the same principals and knowledge which would have been forefront in the US forces in Vietnam War. As shown, the US military is VERY good at these tactics and absolutely crushed the enemy in a manner of weeks. We never abandoned the lessons and tactics of WW 2.

You see the problem with your view? Vietnam was an entirely different situation and we really couldn't use our well known tactics to our stength, so we tried new ones without abandoning the lessons learned from WW 2. We couldn't amass a large body of troops and tanks and roll on to NV for obvious reasons. Indeed, it's a fairly well known fact that the US was close to victory many times in Vietnam and nearly had to have the stomach and political will to end it in our favor. However, due to some faulty military thinking (war of attrition) and being hog-tied by politics - we didn't and we lost.

There was a change in Vietnam, but it was merely the US military trying to adapt to the situation, which, in may ways, it did quite well considering the circumstances. It was only through a combination of bad politics, lack of political will, and a few bad military thinkers that we lost. To this day, me and a lot of other military buffs are still baffled at how the US lost the war, when they had been close so many times. Which makes the fact we left behind so many of our POWs behind all the more sad. 

I see. I guess my problem with Operation Iraqi Freedom is that there didn't seem to very much movement forward. During the first weeks, yes, we crushed the forces in Iraq, but then we stayed there for years afterwards.

Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2010, 07:08:38 PM »
Here's what I have to say about it, if hittin up the japanese and indians and Kicking out the commies was so bad, why is it that afterwards are country did so damn good huh? Just because were all so politically correct and like to pretend we love everybody, we say that they're so atrocious. Watch out America, We might just turn into those commie hippies we thought we defeated decades ago. :'(

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Death-T

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2010, 04:58:36 AM »
Here's what I have to say about it, if hittin up the japanese and indians and Kicking out the commies was so bad, why is it that afterwards are country did so damn good huh?

First off, did you serious try to combine over two hundred years of US history and then relate the overall period as being good? Indian, Japanese, and Communists are from entirely different periods of American history and trying to group them together in such a way would send 95% of History teachers into hysterics.

Second off, the reason why our 'country did so damn good' was a combination of a war economy boom, a thriving industrial sector with many young workers, and little to no lasting damage on the Continental United States from World War 2 - the war which lead us to our claim as the most powerful country on the planet. The war lead to the US being able to employ millions of its workers and stoped the Great Depression with its large government spending and the opening of so many jobs (such as joining the military). The US's industrial sector gave returning soldiers an upfront job that was fairly stable with destroyed ntions relying on the US for manufactured goods in the wake of European and Asian devestation. Which lead to more wealth, power, and influence for the United States in turn even though we we a major factor in World War 2. And the last item deals directly with the industrial sector being untouched, but also factors in that America suffered little harm in terms of material damage and didn't have to rebuild like Europe had to after the war, giving us another leg up in the political/economic/production game. And hunting down Communists did little to nothing to improve America. It might have even hurt the United States considering the hysteria and falsehoods that were widespread in the 50s.

Your ignorance is disgraceful - go read a book detailing the rise of the economic and political rise of the United States and stop being one of the many reasons why the world is looking at America and laughing. Its not the Communists, its you. They find you and everyone like you funny and are baffled as to how you can exist in the most powerful (at the time of this post) country in the world.
" Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. " - Albert Einstein

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2010, 05:07:47 AM »
Are you suggesting we start indescriminately killing all muslims we come accross?

No, not yet.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2010, 05:35:25 AM »
Are you suggesting we start indescriminately killing all muslims we come accross?

No, not yet.

Woah, you mean you can legitimately see a time when the indiscriminate murder of Muslims could be condoned?

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2010, 05:42:42 AM »
Are you suggesting we start indescriminately killing all muslims we come accross?

No, not yet.

Woah, you mean you can legitimately see a time when the indiscriminate murder of Muslims could be condoned?

See: Jihad.

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Raist

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2010, 05:55:45 AM »
Are you suggesting we start indescriminately killing all muslims we come accross?

No, not yet.

Woah, you mean you can legitimately see a time when the indiscriminate murder of Muslims could be condoned?

See: Jihad.

So you want to legitimize their attacks on the U.S. by declaring war on muslims?

Wow, who is paying your paychecks again?

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2010, 06:00:12 AM »
Are you suggesting we start indescriminately killing all muslims we come accross?

No, not yet.

Woah, you mean you can legitimately see a time when the indiscriminate murder of Muslims could be condoned?

See: Jihad.

At which point you'd better find a new name for your country becuase the USA and what it stands for would be dead.

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Raist

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2010, 06:05:55 AM »
Are you suggesting we start indescriminately killing all muslims we come accross?

No, not yet.

Woah, you mean you can legitimately see a time when the indiscriminate murder of Muslims could be condoned?

See: Jihad.

At which point you'd better find a new name for your country becuase the USA and what it stands for would be dead.

Not giving the british free money? Neh, that died during the world wars. We are now founded on hating left wingers/people in turbans.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2010, 06:28:38 AM »
What?

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2010, 06:38:42 AM »
Are you suggesting we start indescriminately killing all muslims we come accross?

No, not yet.

Woah, you mean you can legitimately see a time when the indiscriminate murder of Muslims could be condoned?

See: Jihad.

At which point you'd better find a new name for your country becuase the USA and what it stands for would be dead.

So defending ourselves against a people hell bent on killing us would destroy the country....interesting.


So you want to legitimize their attacks on the U.S. by declaring war on muslims?

Wow, who is paying your paychecks again?

No, not yet, it hasnt gotten to that level yet.

The Government.

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Trekky0623

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2010, 06:42:11 AM »
Are you suggesting we start indescriminately killing all muslims we come accross?

No, not yet.

Umm...okay then. Wow.

I don't want to bring our pal Hitler into this, but if you replace "Musilm" with "Jew", well, it's not all that much different.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2010, 06:45:38 AM »
Are you suggesting we start indescriminately killing all muslims we come accross?

No, not yet.

Umm...okay then. Wow.

I don't want to bring our pal Hitler into this, but if you replace "Musilm" with "Jew", well, it's not all that much different.

Last i knew the Jews werent hell bent on destroying Germans prior to being rounded up. 

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berny_74

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2010, 06:46:51 AM »
Are you suggesting we start indescriminately killing all muslims we come accross?

No, not yet.

Umm...okay then. Wow.

I don't want to bring our pal Hitler into this, but if you replace "Musilm" with "Jew", well, it's not all that much different.

Last i knew the Jews werent hell bent on destroying Germans prior to being rounded up. 

According to Hitler they were - everything bad that happened to Germany was because of the Jews.

Berny
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Trekky0623

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Re: Violations of Freedom
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2010, 06:48:23 AM »
Are you suggesting we start indescriminately killing all muslims we come accross?

No, not yet.

Umm...okay then. Wow.

I don't want to bring our pal Hitler into this, but if you replace "Musilm" with "Jew", well, it's not all that much different.

Last i knew the Jews werent hell bent on destroying Germans prior to being rounded up. 

According to Hitler they were - everything bad that happened to Germany was because of the Jews.

Berny
<yawn>


Exactly. Believe it or not, not all Muslims are hell bent on murdering everybody, and assuming they are is dangerous and violent, never mind taking the assumption that it may become necessary to killing them on sight.