Proof that Earth is round, not flat

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Erland

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Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« on: November 11, 2010, 02:52:12 PM »
I will do this as an exercise in argumentation.

I will prove that Earth is not flat, but round.

First, I prove that the distance(s) to the stars is very great compared to distances on Earth.
In your FAQ, you claim that the stars are situated 3100 miles above sea level. This is contardicted by the fact that the constellations always have the same apparent sizes, shapes and positions relative to each other, no matter where on Earth and when we observe them. As an example, take the so called Square of Pegasus. This consists of four stars that roughly form a square. Three of the stars are in the constellation Pegasus, the fourth in the constellation Andromeda. When the square reaches its highest postion in the sky, it's sides are roughly directed north/south and east/west. It reaches this highest position about midnight in September for locations at (what is usually called) the northern hemisphere. For a location in southern United States, this high position is a little bit south of zenith.
Now suppose that the square in visible in that position about midnight in September at location in Georgia or Florida. At the same time, it's about 9 p.m. in California. How will people in California then see the square? If we assume that all stars are located at same exact heights (ca 3100 miles) above sea level, as if they were located in a horizontal ceiling with at that height, Californians will not see the four stars making up a square, but a rectangle, located in east in the sky, with considerably longer north/south sides than east/west sides, but even the east/west sides are apparently shorter than the people in the east see them. This is because the direction to the square makes an angle of about 45 degrees with the vertical direction for the Californians, and the distance to the square is also about 1.4 times longer for the Californians than the people in the East. (Well ,a litlle bit less than 45 degress and the distance factor is a little bit less than 1.4, for the distance across the southern U.S. is a little less than 3100 miles, but that doesn't change the argument).
But this is in conflict with observation. The apparent size and shape of the square of Pegasus are the same wherever and whenerver we observe it on Earth.
But perhaps the distances to the stars vary a little about 3100 miles above sea level? This would make things even worse, because then the constellations would be even more distorted when we move from one location on Earth to another. The square of Pegasus then wouldn't even look like a rectangle for the Californians in the example above.

No, there is only one possible explanation of the fact that the sizes, shapes and relative positions of the constellations always look the same wherever and whenever they are observed on Earth: that the distances to them are very large compared to distances on Earth. It's like if you watch collection of objects about, say, 1 kilometer away from you, then the apparent relative positons of the objects doesn't change noticeably if you move a few meters in some direction.

So, the distances to the stars are very large compared to distances on Earth, so large that the sight lines to any particular star are almost parallell for any two observers on Earth.

But then, if Earth was flat, any star would be seen at the same height above the horizon for any two arbitrary observers on Earth watching the star simultaneously. But that is not the case. For example, the Pole Star is always seen at the same heitght above the horizon at every fixed loaction. In Scandinavia, where I live, it is seen quite close to the zenith. In southern Europe, and in the U.S., it is seen much closer to the horizon. This wouldn't be the case if Earth was flat. The only explanation is that the horizontal planes at different locations on Earth are not parallell, and therefore the Pole Star is seen at different heights at different locations (as does other stars also. I noticed, for example, that Orion is seen to rise much higher in the U.S. than in Scandinavia). This means that the surface of Earth is not flat, but curved, and the only model that fit observational data is that it it is (roughly) spherical. Q.E.D.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2010, 05:04:30 PM »
Even if what you are saying is sound, (not saying it is) how exactly does this prove that the Earth is not flat and is round? All it would show is a single claim in the FAQ is false, not that the Earth is flat.

The claim could be false, and the stars could actually be above the Earth at varying distances like they are in RET. How exactly is your argument "Proof that Earth is round, not flat" ?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 05:07:54 PM by EnglshGentleman »

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ClockTower

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2010, 05:12:58 PM »
Even if what you are saying is sound, (not saying it is) how exactly does this prove that the Earth is not flat and is round? All it would show is a single claim in the FAQ is false, not that the Earth is flat.

The claim could be false, and the stars could actually be above the Earth at varying distances like they are in RET. How exactly is your argument "Proof that Earth is round, not flat" ?
Asimov explains it well here: Asimov explains how we know the Earth is round.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2010, 05:16:33 PM »
Even if what you are saying is sound, (not saying it is) how exactly does this prove that the Earth is not flat and is round? All it would show is a single claim in the FAQ is false, not that the Earth is flat.

The claim could be false, and the stars could actually be above the Earth at varying distances like they are in RET. How exactly is your argument "Proof that Earth is round, not flat" ?
Asimov explains it well here: Asimov explains how we know the Earth is round.

Justify this statement.

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ClockTower

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2010, 05:21:48 PM »
Even if what you are saying is sound, (not saying it is) how exactly does this prove that the Earth is not flat and is round? All it would show is a single claim in the FAQ is false, not that the Earth is flat.

The claim could be false, and the stars could actually be above the Earth at varying distances like they are in RET. How exactly is your argument "Proof that Earth is round, not flat" ?
Asimov explains it well here: Asimov explains how we know the Earth is round.

Justify this statement.
1) Reputation of author: http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0102.html.
2) Review of book: http://www.asimovreviews.net/Books/Book133.html
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2010, 05:27:16 PM »

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ClockTower

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Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2010, 05:31:52 PM »
Reputation of author: http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0102.html.

It says that he is an author of fiction.
So?

As an author of fiction it is not unexpected that he would support Round Earth Theory and write on the subject.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 05:33:33 PM by Tom Bishop »

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ClockTower

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2010, 05:34:43 PM »
Reputation of author: http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0102.html.

It says that he is an author of fiction.
So?

As an author of fiction it is not unexpected that he supports Round Earth Theory and would write on the subject.
That is illogical and contrary to the evidence. As you could easily read, he wrote both about science, and excellently, and science fiction, and excellently.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2010, 05:36:21 PM »
Asimov wrote vastly more fiction than non-fiction.

His 16 page pamphlet about Round Earth Theory clearly belongs in his fiction pile.

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ClockTower

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2010, 05:37:32 PM »
Asimov wrote more fiction than non-fiction.

His book about Round Earth Theory clearly belongs in his fiction pile.
What evidence do you have to support your outlandish claim?
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2010, 05:38:43 PM »
What evidence do you have to support your outlandish claim?

I looked out my window and read a copy of Earth Not a Globe.

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ClockTower

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2010, 05:41:33 PM »
What evidence do you have to support your outlandish claim?

I looked out my window and read a copy of Earth Not a Globe.
both irrelevant.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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markjo

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2010, 07:44:32 PM »
Asimov wrote vastly more fiction than non-fiction.

Irrelevant. 

His 16 page pamphlet about Round Earth Theory clearly belongs in his fiction pile.

Oh?  Please tell us what in that pamphlet Asimov made up.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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zork

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2010, 09:27:56 PM »
What evidence do you have to support your outlandish claim?

I looked out my window and read a copy of Earth Not a Globe.
So, you haven't seen the entire earth at once. Good to know that your opinion is unfounded.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
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http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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Erland

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2010, 01:34:01 AM »
Even if what you are saying is sound, (not saying it is) how exactly does this prove that the Earth is not flat and is round? All it would show is a single claim in the FAQ is false, not that the Earth is flat.

The claim could be false, and the stars could actually be above the Earth at varying distances like they are in RET. How exactly is your argument "Proof that Earth is round, not flat" ?
I first prove that the distances to the stars are very great compared to distances on Earth. From my proof alone, one cannot conclude whether the stars are at varying distances or the same distance from the Earth (we now, of course, that it is the former, but I don't prove this here).
In the second part I use what I proved to prove that the surface of the Earth is not a plane (because the heights above the horizon of the Pole star and other stars vary at different locations on Earth). Thus, the Earth is not flat, but rounded in some way. I don't go into detail showing that this rounded shape is roughly a sphere, just saying that a spherical shape fits all data I know of, and I don't know of any other shape that fits data.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2010, 09:20:46 AM »
Even if what you are saying is sound, (not saying it is) how exactly does this prove that the Earth is not flat and is round? All it would show is a single claim in the FAQ is false, not that the Earth is flat.

The claim could be false, and the stars could actually be above the Earth at varying distances like they are in RET. How exactly is your argument "Proof that Earth is round, not flat" ?
In the second part I use what I proved to prove that the surface of the Earth is not a plane (because the heights above the horizon of the Pole star and other stars vary at different locations on Earth). Thus, the Earth is not flat, but rounded in some way.

And you are saying that there is only one solution as to why this may occur?  ???

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Erland

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2010, 09:45:52 AM »
In the second part I use what I proved to prove that the surface of the Earth is not a plane (because the heights above the horizon of the Pole star and other stars vary at different locations on Earth). Thus, the Earth is not flat, but rounded in some way.

And you are saying that there is only one solution as to why this may occur?  ???
If the Earth is not flat, it is rounded in some way, for it has certainly no edges. What other solutions do you think are possible?

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2010, 09:57:57 AM »
In the second part I use what I proved to prove that the surface of the Earth is not a plane (because the heights above the horizon of the Pole star and other stars vary at different locations on Earth). Thus, the Earth is not flat, but rounded in some way.

And you are saying that there is only one solution as to why this may occur?  ???
If the Earth is not flat, it is rounded in some way, for it has certainly no edges. What other solutions do you think are possible?

I meant the movement of the stars.

They move, it is quite simple.

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berny_74

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2010, 10:05:02 AM »
In the second part I use what I proved to prove that the surface of the Earth is not a plane (because the heights above the horizon of the Pole star and other stars vary at different locations on Earth). Thus, the Earth is not flat, but rounded in some way.

And you are saying that there is only one solution as to why this may occur?  ???
If the Earth is not flat, it is rounded in some way, for it has certainly no edges. What other solutions do you think are possible?

I meant the movement of the stars.

They move, it is quite simple.

Can you explain how they move around the sky, and in which directions they move?

Berny
Thinks EG knows where this is going
To be fair, sometimes what FE'ers say makes so little sense that it's hard to come up with a rebuttal.
Moonlight is good for you.

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Erland

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2010, 10:06:46 AM »
I meant the movement of the stars.

They move, it is quite simple.
Not the Pole star. It never moves, seen from a fixed location on the Earth. But if I travel southwards, it moves down closer the horizon. How do you explain that?

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zork

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2010, 10:37:17 AM »
In the second part I use what I proved to prove that the surface of the Earth is not a plane (because the heights above the horizon of the Pole star and other stars vary at different locations on Earth). Thus, the Earth is not flat, but rounded in some way.

And you are saying that there is only one solution as to why this may occur?  ???
If the Earth is not flat, it is rounded in some way, for it has certainly no edges. What other solutions do you think are possible?

I meant the movement of the stars.

They move, it is quite simple.
I asked from Ski, how he detected that the stars are the ones that move. I didn't get the answer. But as you claim the same thing then I ask from you. How did you detect that the stars are the ones that move?
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
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http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2010, 11:04:08 AM »
But if I travel southwards, it moves down closer the horizon. How do you explain that?

Sounds to me as though it moves.

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Erland

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2010, 11:43:06 AM »
But if I travel southwards, it moves down closer the horizon. How do you explain that?

Sounds to me as though it moves.
Yes, and why does it (appear to) move in this way?

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zork

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2010, 12:11:15 PM »
I meant the movement of the stars.

They move, it is quite simple.
I asked from Ski, how he detected that the stars are the ones that move. I didn't get the answer. But as you claim the same thing then I ask from you. How did you detect that the stars are the ones that move?
  I see that you fail totally to show that the stars are the ones that move.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
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http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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Erland

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2010, 12:27:07 PM »
Sounds to me as though it moves.
Yes, and why does it (appear to) move in this way?
Let me be more precise. The Pole star seems to move in sky only if I travel in the north-south direction. If I don't move, neither does the star seem to do.
But if I and a person in southern Europe watch the Pole star in this very moment, we will find that I (in northern Sweden) see it much closer to the zenith then he/she does. Can there be any other explanation of this, than that we don't share the same horizontal plane, i.e that the surface of the Earth is curved?

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2010, 12:54:05 PM »
Sounds to me as though it moves.
Yes, and why does it (appear to) move in this way?
Let me be more precise. The Pole star seems to move in sky only if I travel in the north-south direction. If I don't move, neither does the star seem to do.
But if I and a person in southern Europe watch the Pole star in this very moment, we will find that I (in northern Sweden) see it much closer to the zenith then he/she does. Can there be any other explanation of this, than that we don't share the same horizontal plane, i.e that the surface of the Earth is curved?

Would you not expect that a star in relation to another would appear different to people in two different locations on a flat plane? They are viewing them from different angles.

Consider these two photos of the same event from different angles. Look at the car in relation to the sign.



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Horatio

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2010, 01:31:18 PM »
Sounds to me as though it moves.
Yes, and why does it (appear to) move in this way?
Let me be more precise. The Pole star seems to move in sky only if I travel in the north-south direction. If I don't move, neither does the star seem to do.
But if I and a person in southern Europe watch the Pole star in this very moment, we will find that I (in northern Sweden) see it much closer to the zenith then he/she does. Can there be any other explanation of this, than that we don't share the same horizontal plane, i.e that the surface of the Earth is curved?

Would you not expect that a star in relation to another would appear different to people in two different locations on a flat plane? They are viewing them from different angles.

Consider these two photos of the same event from different angles. Look at the car in relation to the sign.





An amusingly inaccurate example. Stars are significantly further away, so they should not appear in different locations if the world was flat.

To give an example, if one were orbiting Alpha Centauri, the constellations would still appear roughly the same.

Epic fail, EnglshGentleman.
How dare you have the audacity to demand my deposition. I've never even heard of you.

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rounder

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2010, 01:44:42 PM »
mmmmmmooonsseteer fail :) earth is round :)

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Erland

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Re: Proof that Earth is round, not flat
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2010, 02:04:39 PM »
Would you not expect that a star in relation to another would appear different to people in two different locations on a flat plane? They are viewing them from different angles.

Consider these two photos of the same event from different angles. Look at the car in relation to the sign.



Hehe, you're kidding... but I will answer seriously..

First, we must disregard that the camera(s) were held at different angles. We must rotate the photos in our mind so that e.g. the images of the frame holding the sign become parallell in the two photos.

As you say, the postion of the car in relation to the sign are different in the two photos. But that is because the distance between the two camera locations is not negligible compared to the distances from the cameras to the car and the sign.
If we instead look at the trees at the far end of the street, we can see no diffence between the silhouttes of those trees in the two photos, not even if we also consider the clouds in the sky behind. This is because in this case, the distance between the camera locations is indeed neglibible compared to the distance from the cameras to those trees and to the clouds. And also, if we measure the height of one of these distant trees above street level in the photos, we would find that it is the same, just as any two persons on a flat Earth would measure the height of the Pole star as the same, since the Pole star is so very far away compared to distances on the Earth.