Sun trajectory and shape

I probed about this in the questions and answers forum and have been mostly met with silence.  As I haven't seen it discussed in the debate board after about a year of lurking I've decided phrase it as an argument for RE.

1) The sun goes directly overhead if you live on the equator, and if you live at a pole it hugs the horizon.

2) The sun is roughly circular in shape wherever you view it from earth, minor diffractions and distortions aside, it is never obviously elliptical.

2) The sun cannot be seen all the time by everyone on the earth.  So if the earth is flat, the sun either emits light spherically and dips below the edge, or acts as a spotlight circling around the equator and does not dip below the edge.

3) If the sun dips below the edge it would pass directly overhead at the sound pole, which is incompatible with 1).  Also the sun could not pass overhead all points of the equator in one day, it would be seen to hug the horizon at one place and pass overhead in another. So again incompatible with 1)

4) If the sun acted as a spotlight, it's shape would vary depending on your position on earth.  At the equator it would appear more circular and at the poles it would appear as a thin ellipse. On the parts of the earth where the sun barely comes above the horizon it would practically appear as a thin line of light.  This is incompatible with 2).

So as far as I can tell, RE models the shape and trajectory of the sun across the sky quite nicely and it doesn't tie in with FE.

1. The Sun is a sphere located approximately 3000 miles above the surface of the earth.

See: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=The+Sun

Quote from: Tom Bishop on November 09, 2010, 06:56:33 PM

1. The Sun is a sphere located approximately 3000 miles above the surface of the earth.

See: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=The+Sun

And this was debunked here: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=41355.0

The distance from London Bridge to the sea-coast at Brighton, in a straight line, is 50 statute miles. On a given day, at 12 o'clock, the altitude of the sun, from near the water at London Bridge, was found to be 61 degrees of an arc; and at the same moment of time the altitude from the sea-coast at Brighton was observed to be 64 degrees of an arc, as shown in fig. 58. The base-line from L to B, 50 measured statute miles; the angle at L, 61 degrees; and the angle at B, 64 degrees. In addition to the method by calculation, the distance of the under edge of the sun may be ascertained from these elements by the method called "construction." The diagram, fig. 58, is the above case "constructed;" that is, the base-line from L to B represents 50 statute miles; and the line L, S, is drawn at an angle of 61 degrees, and the line B, S, at an angle of 64 degrees. Both lines are produced until they bisect or cross each other at the point S. Then, with a pair of compasses, measure the length of the base-line B, L, and see how many times the same length may be found in the line L, S, or B, S. It will be found to be


FIG. 58.

sixteen times, or sixteen times 50 miles, equal to 800 statute miles. Then measure in the same way the vertical line D, S, and it will be found to be 700 miles. Hence it is demonstrable that the distance of the sun over that part of the earth to which it is vertical is only 700 statute miles. By the same mode it may be ascertained that the distance from London of that part of the earth where the sun was vertical at the time (July 13th, 1870) the above observations were taken, was only 400 statute miles, as shown by dividing the base-line L, D, by the distance B, L. If any allowance is to be made for refraction--which, no doubt, exists where the sun's rays have to pass through a medium, the atmosphere, which gradually increases in density as it approaches the earth's surface--it will considerably diminish the above-named distance of the sun; so that it is perfectly safe to affirm that the under edge of the sun is considerably less than 700 statute miles above the earth.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on November 09, 2010, 06:56:33 PM

1. The Sun is a sphere located approximately 3000 miles above the surface of the earth.

See: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=The+Sun

And this was debunked here: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=41355.0

The mathematical formula for the height, h of an object above a point at the distance d over level, flat ground that appears to be at the angle theta above the horizon is given by tan(theta) = h/d or h = d tan(theta). The tan(45^o) = 1. So the example works.

Quote from: ClockTower on November 09, 2010, 07:03:31 PM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on November 09, 2010, 06:56:33 PM

1. The Sun is a sphere located approximately 3000 miles above the surface of the earth.

See: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=The+Sun

And this was debunked here: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=41355.0

Your thread admits that my example works.

Quote from: ClockTower on July 31, 2010, 06:46:27 AM

The mathematical formula for the height, h of an object above a point at the distance d over level, flat ground that appears to be at the angle theta above the horizon is given by tan(theta) = h/d or h = d tan(theta). The tan(45^o) = 1. So the example works.

It looks like its dipping here.
Occam's razor?  I see it dipping therefore it must be dipping.
Now why should I assume there is any "optic" effects?  Nothing else is being disturbed in the image.

Hence, the simplest explanation when observing the sun disappear into the horizon is that it disappears into the horizon.

It can't go into horizon because horizon isn't something to where you can go into

people still see the Sun after it went below the horizon.

Quote

It can't go into horizon because horizon isn't something to where you can go into

I've seen plenty of things go into the horizon.

Quote

It can't go into horizon because horizon isn't something to where you can go into

I've seen plenty of things go into the horizon.

Quote from: zork on November 09, 2010, 11:31:36 PM

people still see the Sun after it went below the horizon.

Actually, they don't.

It looks like its dipping here.
Occam's razor?  I see it dipping therefore it must be dipping.
Now why should I assume there is any "optic" effects?  Nothing else is being disturbed in the image.

Here's another pic unshrunk of the sun just kissing the horizon, a perfect sphere.
http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k606/berny_74/img008.jpg

Berny
St-Martin was a beeeutifull

4. The sun's light acts as a spotlight upon the earth, creating a circular illuminated area. But it does not follow that the sun is flat. The sun is a sphere which shines light in all directions around it. Its light is diluted and bounded in its extent as it travels across the surface of the earth by the simple fact that the atmosphere is not perfectly transparent.

See: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Viewing+Distance

There is nothing which suggests or demonstrates that the sun is disappearing below the horizon. When I watch the sunset I see the sun disappearing into the horizon. I have never seen the sun below it.

Hence, the simplest explanation when observing the sun disappear into the horizon is that it disappears into the horizon.

The idea that the sun goes below the horizon is undemonstrated and unseen.

Quote from: berny_74 on November 09, 2010, 08:21:41 PM

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k606/berny_74/img010.jpg

It looks like its dipping here.
Occam's razor?  I see it dipping therefore it must be dipping.
Now why should I assume there is any "optic" effects?  Nothing else is being disturbed in the image.

Here's another pic unshrunk of the sun just kissing the horizon, a perfect sphere.
http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k606/berny_74/img008.jpg

Berny
St-Martin was a beeeutifull

How is that supported by OR. OR states that the side with more proof is more likely to be correct. So RE>FE.

Also, the Red Sea, Saint Martin? I want to travel like berny.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on November 09, 2010, 11:45:07 PM

Quote

It can't go into horizon because horizon isn't something to where you can go into

I've seen plenty of things go into the horizon.

Like what?

I didn't say that the concrete person who observes the Sun go below the horizon. Other people who are in other places still see the Sun. If it went into something then no one would be able to see the Sun anywhere on the Earth.

Anyhow I think the OP is pretty much firmed up.  Nobody can deny that the sun remains a perfect sphere as it hits the horizon, and I am sorry to say if it disappeared 'Into' the Horizon it would get smaller and smaller.  It just sinks below the horizon, you can see it remain the same size, just sinking.

Quote from: zork

I didn't say that the concrete person who observes the Sun go below the horizon. Other people who are in other places still see the Sun. If it went into something then no one would be able to see the Sun anywhere on the Earth.

Since the sun is disappearing by perspective, someone of a different perspective, closer to the sun, would be able to observe it in the sky.

Disappearing by perspective menas that it goes smaller and smaller and disappears.

Please see this Wiki article on the topic of how and why the sun maintains its size and diameter throughout the day: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Magnification+of+the+Sun+at+Sunset

Quote from: zork on November 10, 2010, 11:35:51 AM

Disappearing by perspective means that it goes smaller and smaller and disappears.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on November 10, 2010, 11:29:58 AM

Please see this Wiki article on the topic of how and why the sun maintains its size and diameter throughout the day: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Magnification+of+the+Sun+at+Sunset

Quote from: zork on November 10, 2010, 11:35:51 AM

Disappearing by perspective menas that it goes smaller and smaller and disappears.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on November 10, 2010, 11:29:58 AM

Please see this Wiki article on the topic of how and why the sun maintains its size and diameter throughout the day: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Magnification+of+the+Sun+at+Sunset

The sun does not get smaller and smaller as it grows in distance from the observer due to a known magnification effect.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on November 10, 2010, 11:40:35 AM

Quote from: zork on November 10, 2010, 11:35:51 AM

Disappearing by perspective menas that it goes smaller and smaller and disappears.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on November 10, 2010, 11:29:58 AM

Please see this Wiki article on the topic of how and why the sun maintains its size and diameter throughout the day: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Magnification+of+the+Sun+at+Sunset

Your source is the Wiki maintained by....yourself.

If it is magnified then it still won't disappear by perspective. Perspective implies rather straightforwardly that it goes smaller and smaller until it disappears. The Sun won't do it.

Your source is the Wiki maintained by....yourself. :Facepalm:

so, the sun is a sphere that imits light in all directions, sounds right...
but wait, its also a spot light that casts a circle of light on 1/2 the earth?

now which one is it? a ball of light emition in all directions or  a spotlight?

Quote from: zork on November 10, 2010, 11:57:53 AM

If it is magnified then it still won't disappear by perspective. Perspective implies rather straightforwardly that it goes smaller and smaller until it disappears. The Sun won't do it.

Sure. If the earth had no atmosphere the sun would get smaller and smaller as it receded from the observer.

However, as the earth does have an atmosphere, a known magnification effect occurs which allows the sun to grow bigger in diameter upon the atmosphere while it shrinks and recedes, balancing out and maintaining its diameter throughout the day.

See the Wiki page I linked above.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on November 10, 2010, 02:20:52 PM

Quote from: zork on November 10, 2010, 11:57:53 AM

If it is magnified then it still won't disappear by perspective. Perspective implies rather straightforwardly that it goes smaller and smaller until it disappears. The Sun won't do it.

Sure. If the earth had no atmosphere the sun would get smaller and smaller as it receded from the observer.

However, as the earth does have an atmosphere, a known magnification effect occurs which allows the sun to grow bigger in diameter upon the atmosphere while it shrinks and recedes, balancing out and maintaining its diameter throughout the day.

See the Wiki page I linked above.

Why do other objects appear smaller the further away they are, then?

Quote from: Part of the Problem on November 10, 2010, 02:33:39 PM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on November 10, 2010, 02:20:52 PM

Quote from: zork on November 10, 2010, 11:57:53 AM

If it is magnified then it still won't disappear by perspective. Perspective implies rather straightforwardly that it goes smaller and smaller until it disappears. The Sun won't do it.

Sure. If the earth had no atmosphere the sun would get smaller and smaller as it receded from the observer.

However, as the earth does have an atmosphere, a known magnification effect occurs which allows the sun to grow bigger in diameter upon the atmosphere while it shrinks and recedes, balancing out and maintaining its diameter throughout the day.

See the Wiki page I linked above.

Why do other objects appear smaller the further away they are, then?

They are not as bright as the sun.The magnification effect only occurs on light sources of sufficient intensity.

See: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Magnification+of+the+Sun+at+Sunset

In the Headlight Example in the above link the red tail lights of the cars moving away from the camera are not as intense as the oncoming headlights on the oncoming lane, and thus are appropriately shrinking into the distance.

The headlights of the cars moving towards the camera, on the other hand, are intense enough to catch onto the atmosphere and magnify. The further the headlight is from the camera, the bigger it appears. This creates the effect of the headlights of the cars down the highway being the same size as far as the eye can see.