Warrdog's Avatar

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Re: Warrdog's Avatar
« Reply #60 on: November 09, 2010, 02:36:40 PM »
Yes, Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations do want to wipe out western society. However, Muslims are no necessarily a part of Al Qaeda.

Not just Al Qaeda or the Taliban, but no doubt there are plenty of individuals who hold similar beliefs. The fact remains that Islam is a catalyst for their violent actions. Psychological studies have shown that people are more willing to carry out violent acts if they are supported by scripture.
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Trekky0623

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« Reply #61 on: November 09, 2010, 02:37:21 PM »
Yes, Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations do want to wipe out western society. However, Muslims are no necessarily a part of Al Qaeda.

When there are riots or bombings in Northern Ireland, the news reports these as 'Republican' or 'Unionist' they know full well that not all unionists or republicans are fucking stupid terrorists but for the purposes of conveying the news that some faction who happened to be republican set off a pipe bomb 'republican' is a good enough catch-all term. Same as 'Muslim' or 'Islamist'

Except that the ratio of terrorist:Muslim is so small, that the comparison is retarded and solely based on fear. Islam currently has, what, over a billion followers?

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Trekky0623

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« Reply #62 on: November 09, 2010, 02:38:04 PM »
Yes, Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations do want to wipe out western society. However, Muslims are no necessarily a part of Al Qaeda.

Not just Al Qaeda or the Taliban, but no doubt there are plenty of individuals who hold similar beliefs. The fact remains that Islam is a catalyst for their violent actions. Psychological studies have shown that people are more willing to carry out violent acts if they are supported by scripture.

And there are many Christians who support killing Muslims for similar reasons. Your point?

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« Reply #63 on: November 09, 2010, 02:40:07 PM »
Yes, Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations do want to wipe out western society. However, Muslims are no necessarily a part of Al Qaeda.

Not just Al Qaeda or the Taliban, but no doubt there are plenty of individuals who hold similar beliefs. The fact remains that Islam is a catalyst for their violent actions. Psychological studies have shown that people are more willing to carry out violent acts if they are supported by scripture.

And there are many Christians who support killing Muslims for similar reasons. Your point?

My point is that violence based on idealistic notions is dangerous to society.
The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are too strong to be broken. -Samuel Johnson

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Trekky0623

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« Reply #64 on: November 09, 2010, 02:42:28 PM »
Yes, Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations do want to wipe out western society. However, Muslims are no necessarily a part of Al Qaeda.

Not just Al Qaeda or the Taliban, but no doubt there are plenty of individuals who hold similar beliefs. The fact remains that Islam is a catalyst for their violent actions. Psychological studies have shown that people are more willing to carry out violent acts if they are supported by scripture.

And there are many Christians who support killing Muslims for similar reasons. Your point?

My point is that violence based on idealistic notions is dangerous to society.

Yes it is. I agree that religion does cause more harm that good. However, this is not limited to Islam, so trying to claim that Islam = violence is ludicrous, especially when the comparison doesn't even hold since not all Muslims are violent.

The site should state "Religions of predisposition to violence".

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Chris Spaghetti

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« Reply #65 on: November 09, 2010, 02:50:23 PM »
Yes Islam has many, many different sects and interpretations and groups and prejudices, which is why it's easier to group them by the one thing they all have in common - Islam.

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« Reply #66 on: November 09, 2010, 02:50:48 PM »
However, this is not limited to Islam, so trying to claim that Islam = violence is ludicrous, especially when the comparison doesn't even hold since not all Muslims are violent.

Fundamentally, both Christianity and Islam are violent religions. This is mainly due to the fact that they were invented by humans and humans are naturally inclined to do violent acts.

I think it is right to criticize Islam as a religion, but not necessarily right to criticize all those who follow it.  
The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are too strong to be broken. -Samuel Johnson

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Chris Spaghetti

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« Reply #67 on: November 09, 2010, 02:51:46 PM »
However, this is not limited to Islam, so trying to claim that Islam = violence is ludicrous, especially when the comparison doesn't even hold since not all Muslims are violent.

Fundamentally, both Christianity and Islam are violent religions. This is mainly due to the fact that they were invented by humans and humans are naturally inclined to do violent acts.

I think it is right to criticize Islam as a religion, but not necessarily right to criticize all those who follow it.  

This.

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Trekky0623

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« Reply #68 on: November 09, 2010, 02:59:07 PM »
However, this is not limited to Islam, so trying to claim that Islam = violence is ludicrous, especially when the comparison doesn't even hold since not all Muslims are violent.

Fundamentally, both Christianity and Islam are violent religions. This is mainly due to the fact that they were invented by humans and humans are naturally inclined to do violent acts.

I think it is right to criticize Islam as a religion, but not necessarily right to criticize all those who follow it. 

This.

I agree with this.

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WardoggKC130FE

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« Reply #69 on: November 14, 2010, 04:14:24 AM »
However, this is not limited to Islam, so trying to claim that Islam = violence is ludicrous, especially when the comparison doesn't even hold since not all Muslims are violent.

Fundamentally, both Christianity and Islam are violent religions. This is mainly due to the fact that they were invented by humans and humans are naturally inclined to do violent acts.

I think it is right to criticize Islam as a religion, but not necessarily right to criticize all those who follow it.  

Are you saying that a large majority of Christians today are violent...or just in the past?

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Lord Wilmore

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« Reply #70 on: November 14, 2010, 07:35:10 AM »
Wardogg, please try and grasp that Christians/Muslims != Christianity/Islam.


However, as nations with predominantly Christian populations usually top homicide rate tables, I think the argument could be made that Christians are in general more violent than Muslims (though it's a retarded argument no matter which way you play it).
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Raist

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« Reply #71 on: November 14, 2010, 08:34:53 AM »
Wardogg, please try and grasp that Christians/Muslims != Christianity/Islam.


However, as nations with predominantly Christian populations usually top homicide rate tables, I think the argument could be made that Christians are in general more violent than Muslims (though it's a retarded argument no matter which way you play it).

I would say that islam is a rather more violent religion. I am not talking about the followers, simply the religion. The rules for treating non believers are completely inhuman, especially compared to the new testament.

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Lord Wilmore

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« Reply #72 on: November 14, 2010, 10:22:20 AM »
I would probably agree, but Wardogg seems to be treating a religion and its followers as equivalent or interchangeable:


Fundamentally, both Christianity and Islam are violent religions. This is mainly due to the fact that they were invented by humans and humans are naturally inclined to do violent acts.

I think it is right to criticize Islam as a religion, but not necessarily right to criticize all those who follow it.  

Are you saying that a large majority of Christians today are violent...or just in the past?
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Trekky0623

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« Reply #73 on: November 14, 2010, 11:15:18 AM »
Wardogg, please try and grasp that Christians/Muslims != Christianity/Islam.


However, as nations with predominantly Christian populations usually top homicide rate tables, I think the argument could be made that Christians are in general more violent than Muslims (though it's a retarded argument no matter which way you play it).

I would say that islam is a rather more violent religion. I am not talking about the followers, simply the religion. The rules for treating non believers are completely inhuman, especially compared to the new testament.

The Old Testament is just as violent as the Quran.

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Raist

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« Reply #74 on: November 14, 2010, 10:10:53 PM »
Wardogg, please try and grasp that Christians/Muslims != Christianity/Islam.


However, as nations with predominantly Christian populations usually top homicide rate tables, I think the argument could be made that Christians are in general more violent than Muslims (though it's a retarded argument no matter which way you play it).

I would say that islam is a rather more violent religion. I am not talking about the followers, simply the religion. The rules for treating non believers are completely inhuman, especially compared to the new testament.

The Old Testament is just as violent as the Quran.

Having exactly what to do with christianity? That is the story of Judaism.

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Trekky0623

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« Reply #75 on: November 14, 2010, 10:32:28 PM »
Wardogg, please try and grasp that Christians/Muslims != Christianity/Islam.


However, as nations with predominantly Christian populations usually top homicide rate tables, I think the argument could be made that Christians are in general more violent than Muslims (though it's a retarded argument no matter which way you play it).

I would say that islam is a rather more violent religion. I am not talking about the followers, simply the religion. The rules for treating non believers are completely inhuman, especially compared to the new testament.

The Old Testament is just as violent as the Quran.

Having exactly what to do with christianity? That is the story of Judaism.

Just because you think the sequel is better doesn't mean it's not part of the Christian holy book.

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Raist

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« Reply #76 on: November 14, 2010, 11:19:55 PM »
Wardogg, please try and grasp that Christians/Muslims != Christianity/Islam.


However, as nations with predominantly Christian populations usually top homicide rate tables, I think the argument could be made that Christians are in general more violent than Muslims (though it's a retarded argument no matter which way you play it).

I would say that islam is a rather more violent religion. I am not talking about the followers, simply the religion. The rules for treating non believers are completely inhuman, especially compared to the new testament.

The Old Testament is just as violent as the Quran.

Having exactly what to do with christianity? That is the story of Judaism.

Just because you think the sequel is better doesn't mean it's not part of the Christian holy book.

Which has what to do with what?

A story inside of our religious text does not determine the rules/behavior of the religion.

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Trekky0623

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« Reply #77 on: November 14, 2010, 11:23:17 PM »
They're more than stories. God tells people to do stuff like murder people. What's so different between that and the Quran?

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Raist

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« Reply #78 on: November 14, 2010, 11:33:30 PM »
They're more than stories. God tells people to do stuff like murder people. What's so different between that and the Quran?

Since those laws do not apply to christianity, a lot.

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« Reply #79 on: November 15, 2010, 01:38:09 AM »
They're more than stories. God tells people to do stuff like murder people. What's so different between that and the Quran?

Since those laws do not apply to christianity, a lot.

The bible is the common denominator among all sects of Christianity. The fundamentalists interpret it as the literal word of God while some view the various scriptures as metaphors. However, all Christians view the bible as a holy book from which morality is derived. The ten commandments for example are moral laws which apply to both Christians and Jews. I think you're definitely wrong when you say that the Old Testament is somehow exempt or does not apply to Christianity because it really does.

But I'd agree that the teachings of Jesus are much more peaceful than Islamic teachings. Still, I'm not sure how many Christians actually subscribe 100% to the teachings of Jesus. They're pretty hard to be faithful to with such concepts as "loving your enemy" or "doing good to those who persecute you". While they're noble endeavors they're just not very realistic.
The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are too strong to be broken. -Samuel Johnson

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Raist

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« Reply #80 on: November 15, 2010, 02:43:06 AM »
They're more than stories. God tells people to do stuff like murder people. What's so different between that and the Quran?

Since those laws do not apply to christianity, a lot.

The bible is the common denominator among all sects of Christianity. The fundamentalists interpret it as the literal word of God while some view the various scriptures as metaphors. However, all Christians view the bible as a holy book from which morality is derived. The ten commandments for example are moral laws which apply to both Christians and Jews. I think you're definitely wrong when you say that the Old Testament is somehow exempt or does not apply to Christianity because it really does.

But I'd agree that the teachings of Jesus are much more peaceful than Islamic teachings. Still, I'm not sure how many Christians actually subscribe 100% to the teachings of Jesus. They're pretty hard to be faithful to with such concepts as "loving your enemy" or "doing good to those who persecute you". While they're noble endeavors they're just not very realistic.

My point is the bible is not christianity, while it is held as sacred, the stories contained within are not always representative of christianity, and the new testament even says that most of the old testament should be interpreted differently. Jesus flat out tells people to turn the other cheek when attacked and won't let them kill a woman that the old testament claims should be killed. The teachings of jesus are the essence of christianity, judaism is just the tribal religion that it sprung from.

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« Reply #81 on: November 15, 2010, 03:29:03 AM »
They're more than stories. God tells people to do stuff like murder people. What's so different between that and the Quran?

Since those laws do not apply to christianity, a lot.

The bible is the common denominator among all sects of Christianity. The fundamentalists interpret it as the literal word of God while some view the various scriptures as metaphors. However, all Christians view the bible as a holy book from which morality is derived. The ten commandments for example are moral laws which apply to both Christians and Jews. I think you're definitely wrong when you say that the Old Testament is somehow exempt or does not apply to Christianity because it really does.

But I'd agree that the teachings of Jesus are much more peaceful than Islamic teachings. Still, I'm not sure how many Christians actually subscribe 100% to the teachings of Jesus. They're pretty hard to be faithful to with such concepts as "loving your enemy" or "doing good to those who persecute you". While they're noble endeavors they're just not very realistic.

My point is the bible is not christianity, while it is held as sacred, the stories contained within are not always representative of christianity, and the new testament even says that most of the old testament should be interpreted differently. Jesus flat out tells people to turn the other cheek when attacked and won't let them kill a woman that the old testament claims should be killed. The teachings of jesus are the essence of christianity, judaism is just the tribal religion that it sprung from.

The Jewish, Christian and Islamic god are all the same. The thing about Christianity is that Jesus coming to Earth was supposedly a "new covenant" between god and man. However, Christians still believe that scripture from the Old Testament is the word of god. Whether you want to classify it as Christianity or not, there's still the issue of there being a jealous, violent and tyrannical being in the universe.
The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are too strong to be broken. -Samuel Johnson

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Raist

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« Reply #82 on: November 15, 2010, 06:10:12 AM »
They're more than stories. God tells people to do stuff like murder people. What's so different between that and the Quran?

Since those laws do not apply to christianity, a lot.

The bible is the common denominator among all sects of Christianity. The fundamentalists interpret it as the literal word of God while some view the various scriptures as metaphors. However, all Christians view the bible as a holy book from which morality is derived. The ten commandments for example are moral laws which apply to both Christians and Jews. I think you're definitely wrong when you say that the Old Testament is somehow exempt or does not apply to Christianity because it really does.

But I'd agree that the teachings of Jesus are much more peaceful than Islamic teachings. Still, I'm not sure how many Christians actually subscribe 100% to the teachings of Jesus. They're pretty hard to be faithful to with such concepts as "loving your enemy" or "doing good to those who persecute you". While they're noble endeavors they're just not very realistic.

My point is the bible is not christianity, while it is held as sacred, the stories contained within are not always representative of christianity, and the new testament even says that most of the old testament should be interpreted differently. Jesus flat out tells people to turn the other cheek when attacked and won't let them kill a woman that the old testament claims should be killed. The teachings of jesus are the essence of christianity, judaism is just the tribal religion that it sprung from.

The Jewish, Christian and Islamic god are all the same. The thing about Christianity is that Jesus coming to Earth was supposedly a "new covenant" between god and man. However, Christians still believe that scripture from the Old Testament is the word of god. Whether you want to classify it as Christianity or not, there's still the issue of there being a jealous, violent and tyrannical being in the universe.


I am not arguing about the gods being different, or the bible saying something different. The religion, christianity, is following the new covenant of jesus. This religion is a peaceful one. Judaism is a rather violent religion in parts, but it has nothing to do with the christian religion other than shared roots.

(A religion is a set of shared practices and beliefs. It is not the god, or the book. And the beliefs and customs of christianity are peaceful, even if the christians themselves aren't)

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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« Reply #83 on: November 16, 2010, 01:08:48 AM »
(A religion is a set of shared practices and beliefs. It is not the god, or the book. And the beliefs and customs of Christianity are peaceful, even if the Christians themselves aren't [peaceful])
Wouldn't shared mentalities of violence amongst Christians would constitute shared beliefs or practices? How could Christianity be peaceful if it is the product of shared non-peaceful mentalities? And although my sample size is relatively small, less than 9 percent of the Christian's I know are tolerant of Islam.  ???

Also, this conversation was started on the premise that it is different from the Quran. If the Christian book doesn't define Christianity wouldn't that mean the Quran doesn't have to define Islam?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 01:12:24 AM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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« Reply #84 on: November 16, 2010, 03:30:02 AM »
His avatar and the site does have some truth to it. If Muslims preach their religion is peaceful, why do quite a few (compared to other religions) interpret the Quran as a message of "kill the infidels"? Is it the religion itself, or is could it be the nature of the people? Either way, you can't say Islam is more peaceful than modern day Christianity or Judaism.

Also, what bothers me about this is that their kind of terrorism/war is they aren't doing it out of being repressed, but more of 'hate' for a certain group.

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Hessy

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« Reply #85 on: November 16, 2010, 09:40:33 AM »
His avatar and the site does have some truth to it. If Muslims preach their religion is peaceful, why do quite a few (compared to other religions) interpret the Quran as a message of "kill the infidels"? Is it the religion itself, or is could it be the nature of the people? Either way, you can't say Islam is more peaceful than modern day Christianity or Judaism.

Of course we can't.  But arguably, any of the religions can be interpreted numerous ways; peacefully or not.  The Westboro Baptist Church firmly believes "God hates fags" and kills military servicemen and women out of anger for our tolerance.  A great example of a violent interpretation of the Christian religion.

ReligionofPeace.com just generalizes Muslims and thinks they all interpret Islam violently.  They're also gay-hating religious nutjobs.

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« Reply #86 on: November 16, 2010, 02:10:04 PM »
His avatar and the site does have some truth to it. If Muslims preach their religion is peaceful, why do quite a few (compared to other religions) interpret the Quran as a message of "kill the infidels"? Is it the religion itself, or is could it be the nature of the people? Either way, you can't say Islam is more peaceful than modern day Christianity or Judaism.

Of course we can't.  But arguably, any of the religions can be interpreted numerous ways; peacefully or not.  The Westboro Baptist Church firmly believes "God hates fags" and kills military servicemen and women out of anger for our tolerance.  A great example of a violent interpretation of the Christian religion.

ReligionofPeace.com just generalizes Muslims and thinks they all interpret Islam violently.  They're also gay-hating religious nutjobs.

WBC sure they are 'extreme', but do you see them blowing themselves up? Their interpretation is extreme, but its extreme to the point that 'God will come down and kill all the sinners.' For Muslims its, I have to take God's will upon myself to kill the sinners/infidels. Huge difference there.

Westboro's are douchebags, I'll give them that, but they are extremely peaceful in their actions. Sure they convey messages of hate....but have they killed anyone over it?

Generalizations are not up to the outgroup to discard, its the ingroup that's responsible for tossing aside the generalizations that get made against their group. Yes, the media doesn't cover a lot of the good the Islamic faith has done. Still, if the Islamic people want to get rid of that "terrorist" stigma, they need to actively (strongly etc) campaign against it, not shrug it off and say 'its bad, our faith would never do that!'

Also, between Christianity and Islam, Christianity is more open to change (more liberal) than the Islamic faith. Both are still way behind, but in terms of actually changing for the current society, Christianity is miles ahead.

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EnglshGentleman

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« Reply #87 on: November 16, 2010, 10:15:46 PM »
In order for his avatar's statistic to be correct, there would have to be five terrorist attacks per day. Has anyone checked if his statistic is even accurate?

Im sure with a little searching you could find each one listed.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks-2009.htm

There are no citations or sources. How are we to know they didn't make up the events?

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Raist

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« Reply #88 on: November 17, 2010, 06:04:20 AM »
(A religion is a set of shared practices and beliefs. It is not the god, or the book. And the beliefs and customs of Christianity are peaceful, even if the Christians themselves aren't [peaceful])
Wouldn't shared mentalities of violence amongst Christians would constitute shared beliefs or practices? How could Christianity be peaceful if it is the product of shared non-peaceful mentalities? And although my sample size is relatively small, less than 9 percent of the Christian's I know are tolerant of Islam.  ???

Also, this conversation was started on the premise that it is different from the Quran. If the Christian book doesn't define Christianity wouldn't that mean the Quran doesn't have to define Islam?

Shared mentalities of violence amongst christians are simply shared mentalities of violence among humans. It is in no way part of the religion and is simply a correlation. I will admit there are some violent forms of "christianity" but they disobey enough of jesus' main teachings that they are really christian by their proclamation alone.

You are making the huge assumption that the bible is to christians like the quran is to muslims. Considering the bible is an incorporation of many generations, several covenants, and even full changes in the religion, the bible tends to be a history of christianity/judaism. The quran on the other hand was written towards the inception of the religion and is a guidebook.

And being tolerant of islam is not a religious belief, it is a personal one.

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Trekky0623

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« Reply #89 on: November 17, 2010, 06:53:09 AM »
And the ones that don't stone adulterers are disobeying the word of God.

"For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished.  Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."  (Matthew 5:18-19)