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Quote from: Trekky0623 on November 08, 2010, 02:04:50 PM

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on November 08, 2010, 11:45:37 AM

I would dispute that. While it might be aggravations besides religion which drive a person to hate, religion, particularly Islam in the Middle East, provides a fertile bed of justification and righteous indignation. Sam Harris puts the case against Islam very convincingly in 'The End of Faith' in 'The Problem with Islam' including a statistic where over 80% of those asked in Lebanon whether suicide bombing in defence of Islam was justified agreed that it was.

Yeah, but I still don't think it's believing in a magic skydaddy that makes them violent. Take the Westboro Baptist Church for example. They believe in Christianity, yet there are many Christians who don't act like they do. Likewise there are many Muslims that aren't violent, leading me to believe that its not the actual religion but rather one's interpretation of it, which could change greatly from person to person.

I love this comparison.  Please see my other thread for comparable numbers and or actual deaths from above groups.

I'm not saying Muslims don't kill more people; I'm saying the root reasons aren't truly religious in nature.

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on November 08, 2010, 02:07:21 PM

Quote from: Trekky0623 on November 08, 2010, 02:04:50 PM

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on November 08, 2010, 11:45:37 AM

I would dispute that. While it might be aggravations besides religion which drive a person to hate, religion, particularly Islam in the Middle East, provides a fertile bed of justification and righteous indignation. Sam Harris puts the case against Islam very convincingly in 'The End of Faith' in 'The Problem with Islam' including a statistic where over 80% of those asked in Lebanon whether suicide bombing in defence of Islam was justified agreed that it was.

Yeah, but I still don't think it's believing in a magic skydaddy that makes them violent. Take the Westboro Baptist Church for example. They believe in Christianity, yet there are many Christians who don't act like they do. Likewise there are many Muslims that aren't violent, leading me to believe that its not the actual religion but rather one's interpretation of it, which could change greatly from person to person.

Sure, but take that religion away and you get rid of their justification for suicide bombs, oppressing women etc

Nah, I believe the greater cause of the terrorist acts are politically driven. I don't really think any Muslim care deep down about killing infidels. The terrorists care about making political statements, not religion ones.

You think they'd be so willing to take themselves out if they didn't believe honestly and sincerely there was somewhere better waiting for them?

Quote from: Trekky0623 on November 08, 2010, 02:09:08 PM

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on November 08, 2010, 02:07:21 PM

Quote from: Trekky0623 on November 08, 2010, 02:04:50 PM

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on November 08, 2010, 11:45:37 AM

I would dispute that. While it might be aggravations besides religion which drive a person to hate, religion, particularly Islam in the Middle East, provides a fertile bed of justification and righteous indignation. Sam Harris puts the case against Islam very convincingly in 'The End of Faith' in 'The Problem with Islam' including a statistic where over 80% of those asked in Lebanon whether suicide bombing in defence of Islam was justified agreed that it was.

Yeah, but I still don't think it's believing in a magic skydaddy that makes them violent. Take the Westboro Baptist Church for example. They believe in Christianity, yet there are many Christians who don't act like they do. Likewise there are many Muslims that aren't violent, leading me to believe that its not the actual religion but rather one's interpretation of it, which could change greatly from person to person.

Sure, but take that religion away and you get rid of their justification for suicide bombs, oppressing women etc

Nah, I believe the greater cause of the terrorist acts are politically driven. I don't really think any Muslim care deep down about killing infidels. The terrorists care about making political statements, not religion ones.

You think they'd be so willing to take themselves out if they didn't believe honestly and sincerely there was somewhere better waiting for them?

I don't know about that, but people would still kill other people.

Most of the problems related to Islam are socio-cultural and historical rather than religious in nature. The Qu'ran does not really prescribe violence to any greater degree than Christianity. That's not to say I think Islam is 'okay', because ultimately I think religion is almost always bad except when it is entirely and exclusively personal. Once you have a movement, you have a mob.

No doubt, if the religion was gone, the violence would be less severe. However, like I said, this isn't due directly to the religion but to the interpretation of it.

The Bible is just as violent as the Qu'ran. It's just that Muslims tend to be more fundamentalist than Christians, mostly due to what Wilmore said above.

Ok I'll concede it isn't the book alone but the whole culture of modern Middle-eastern Islam is violent and extremist, from the preachers in the mosques to the mobs burning effigies in the street. When considering religion I don't think it's right to criticize what it 'could be' but what millions of adherents practice it

Ok I'll concede it isn't the book alone but the whole culture of modern Middle-eastern Islam is violent and extremist, from the preachers in the mosques to the mobs burning effigies in the street. When considering religion I don't think it's right to criticize what it 'could be' but what millions of adherents practice it

So it's more middle eastern culture than anything. Any religion could produce the same result.

It's extremely hard to argue that Islam in any form is beneficial to modern society. And no, I dont find his avatar to be any more offensive than an avatar making a sarcastic observation on christianity (which would be more acceptable in our society).

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on November 08, 2010, 02:23:31 PM

Ok I'll concede it isn't the book alone but the whole culture of modern Middle-eastern Islam is violent and extremist, from the preachers in the mosques to the mobs burning effigies in the street. When considering religion I don't think it's right to criticize what it 'could be' but what millions of adherents practice it

So it's more middle eastern culture than anything. Any religion could produce the same result.

Middle Eastern culture is informed by the beliefs of Islam and Islamic beliefs are built up from middle Eastern culture, the two are intertwined. While it's possible that any religion *could* have become indistinct from Islam the fact remains that at the moment Islam occupies that position.

In the same way that in the woods you might be attacked by a bear. Evolution *could* have taken something else to fill the bear's niche but it makes more sense to be wary of bears than bear-like cats for instance.

Wardogg is a god. All of you, shut your mouths!

I'd like to know how many terrorist acts have happened since 9-11.

Very true, It cut down the largely American funded Noraid support for the IRA to almost nil. 


Noraid.............
American/Irish campaign that supported mass murder in Northern Ireland and the UK by funding the IRA between 1970 up until 9/11 when America got some back and didn't like it.
"Ouch, them terrorists hurt, better stop funding Irish ones like Noraid."

Quote from: Wendy on November 08, 2010, 11:06:32 AM

I'd like to know how many terrorist acts have happened since 9-11.

Very true, It cut down the largely American funded Noraid support for the IRA to almost nil. 


Noraid.............
American/Irish campaign that supported mass murder in Northern Ireland and the UK by funding the IRA between 1970 up until 9/11 when America got some back and didn't like it.
"Ouch, them terrorists hurt, better stop funding Irish ones like Noraid."

The agenda of the US government doesn't represent American citizens overall.

Quote from: spanner34.5 on November 09, 2010, 02:26:12 AM

Quote from: Wendy on November 08, 2010, 11:06:32 AM

I'd like to know how many terrorist acts have happened since 9-11.

Very true, It cut down the largely American funded Noraid support for the IRA to almost nil. 


Noraid.............
American/Irish campaign that supported mass murder in Northern Ireland and the UK by funding the IRA between 1970 up until 9/11 when America got some back and didn't like it.
"Ouch, them terrorists hurt, better stop funding Irish ones like Noraid."

The agenda of the US government doesn't represent American citizens overall.

It does, that's what elections are for.

Quote from: Hessy on November 08, 2010, 10:08:47 AM

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=14185

Anyone else find it ignorant or offensive?  As far as I can tell, he actually believes what the website says.

Ignorant perhaps, offensive no. How is it in any way offensive?

It's offensive because he's generalizing and stereotyping Muslims because many are doing what they believe to be right.

For example, Jews traditionally circumsize their kids.  Yet others may label them genital-mangling freaks because they don't hold the same beliefs.

Besides, I'm not sure why everyone is condemning Islam when thousands of men invaded the Middle East in a bloody rampage, massacring, raping, and enslaving thousands of innocent people (not all were Muslims) in the name of God.  Yet they did so because they thought it was right.

I'm offended because he seems to think all Muslims are angry terrorists simply because they're Muslim.

Quote from: Raist on November 08, 2010, 01:56:32 PM

Quote from: Hessy on November 08, 2010, 10:08:47 AM

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=14185

Anyone else find it ignorant or offensive?  As far as I can tell, he actually believes what the website says.

Ignorant perhaps, offensive no. How is it in any way offensive?

It's offensive because he's generalizing and stereotyping Muslims because many are doing what they believe to be right.

For example, Jews traditionally circumsize their kids.  Yet others may label them genital-mangling freaks because they don't hold the same beliefs.

I'm offended because he seems to think all Muslims are angry terrorists simply because they're Muslim.

Pretty much this.

In order for his avatar's statistic to be correct, there would have to be five terrorist attacks per day. Has anyone checked if his statistic is even accurate?

In order for his avatar's statistic to be correct, there would have to be five terrorist attacks per day. Has anyone checked if his statistic is even accurate?

Some part of me says that number is ridiculous.  The news would be all over 5 deadly terrorist attacks per day.  They also don't even post sources for their statistics.

And I also realized the website is anti-gay. 

Gay Pride Day in Iran

<Image Permanently Removed to Satisfy Censorware Providers>

But it was a good one...  two gay teens hanging out in Iran, as it were.  Good times...

Wardogg may have that opinion but that's not what I get from his avatar.

If it is factually correct regarding the number of terror attacks perpetrated by people who happen to be Muslim then I don't see how it is offensive. If they all happened to be chartered accountants then 'x deadly terror attacks commited by Chartered Accountants' would be just as accurate and innoffensive.

The phrase 'x number of children circumcised by Jews' would be equally factual and innoffensive.

'x number of people killed in pub fights by Brits' by 'Britain-safest-pubs.com' would not be offensive, either

Now, if the number is innaccurate then you can take umbrage with it but I don't think it actually sounds all that far-fetched if you consider honour-killings and shootings to be acts of terror.

I just find it odd and suspicious that the site doesn't even cite a source.

And it's still offensive because he's promoting a site with wildy extremist, bigotted, and racist views.

The Independant in 2007 reported that "The count - excluding the Arab-Israel conflict - shows the number of deaths due to terrorism rose from 729 to 5,420"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/how-the-war-on-terror-made-the-world-a-more-terrifying-place-438190.html

Except that in the British pubs example, the fact that the pubs are British does not inherently make them unsafe. Similarly, the fact that a person is Musim does not inherently make them violent or a terrorist. However, both of the phrases "Britain: Safest Pubs" and "Religion of Peace" are meant to convey irony in the supposed fact that a British pub is inherrently not safe and that Islam makes someone inherently violent and/or terroristic.

Maybe they aren't inherently violent, but they are inherently more prone to violence.

In order for his avatar's statistic to be correct, there would have to be five terrorist attacks per day. Has anyone checked if his statistic is even accurate?

Im sure with a little searching you could find each one listed.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks-2009.htm

Except that in the British pubs example, the fact that the pubs are British does not inherently make them unsafe. Similarly, the fact that a person is Musim does not inherently make them violent or a terrorist. However, both of the phrases "Britain: Safest Pubs" and "Religion of Peace" are meant to convey irony in the supposed fact that a British pub is inherrently not safe and that Islam makes someone inherently violent and/or terroristic.

No, but I'm reminded of the old poster "you don't have to be crazy to work here... but it helps!"

There's a reason why murderous loonies don't indoctrinate kids with the principles of Jainism...

Quote from: Trekky0623 on November 09, 2010, 09:41:27 AM

In order for his avatar's statistic to be correct, there would have to be five terrorist attacks per day. Has anyone checked if his statistic is even accurate?

Im sure with a little searching you could find each one listed.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks-2009.htm

Would have been nice if they had listed citations.

Quote from: Trekky0623 on November 09, 2010, 09:41:27 AM

In order for his avatar's statistic to be correct, there would have to be five terrorist attacks per day. Has anyone checked if his statistic is even accurate?

Im sure with a little searching you could find each one listed.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks-2009.htm

There are no citations or sources. How are we to know they didn't make up the events?

Quote from: Crustinator on November 08, 2010, 01:37:13 PM

Wow didn't think they had pinko bleeding heart socialist communists in your neck of the woods.

They're everywhere.

Then you'll fit right in.

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on November 09, 2010, 12:36:22 PM

Quote from: Trekky0623 on November 09, 2010, 09:41:27 AM

In order for his avatar's statistic to be correct, there would have to be five terrorist attacks per day. Has anyone checked if his statistic is even accurate?

Im sure with a little searching you could find each one listed.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks-2009.htm

There are no citations or sources. How are we to know they didn't make up the events?

I don't think it's an issue of whether or not that exact number of attacks have occurred, rather it's more of an issue of motive and willingness to carry out the attacks. Their motive is to wipe out western society and they certainly are willing.

Yes, Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations do want to wipe out western society. However, Muslims are no necessarily a part of Al Qaeda.

Yes, Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations do want to wipe out western society. However, Muslims are no necessarily a part of Al Qaeda.

When there are riots or bombings in Northern Ireland, the news reports these as 'Republican' or 'Unionist' they know full well that not all unionists or republicans are fucking stupid terrorists but for the purposes of conveying the news that some faction who happened to be republican set off a pipe bomb 'republican' is a good enough catch-all term. Same as 'Muslim' or 'Islamist'