Did Hitler escape from his Berlin bunker in late April 1945?

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The Flight of the Wolf

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17 November

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The Flight of the Wolf
« on: May 31, 2010, 01:56:47 PM »
The Flight of the Wolf

Do you believe the conventional April 1945 bunker theory of the death of Adolf Hitler?

After reading the patently controversial 'Gestapo Chief:  The 1948 Interrogation of Heinrich Mueller:  Volume One' I am convinced.  I am no fan of nazism or Adolf Hitler, but anyone who wants to convince me that he did not escape and resettle with the approval of certain British and american authorities has got some some explaining to do.  The essential point is that Nazi Gestapo head Heinrich Mueller officially disappeared in the vicinity of Hitler's bunker in late April 1945 and was never seen again which fact lends itself to various theories.  According to "Gregory Douglas" Mueller was actually interviewed for a job by the CIA in Switzerland in 1948 (who recruited more than a few Nazi criminals such as among many others Reinhard Gehlen who founded the West German intelligence services and Werner von Braun who founded NASA in operations such as Bloodstone and Paperclip).  Douglas's book is a record of the highlights of Mueller's interview, and he had quite a story.  This is the single most spectacular book I have ever come across on World War II.

Gestapo Chief Heinrich Mueller
Gestapo Chief:  The 1948 Interrogation of Heinrich Mueller
Edited By Gregory Douglas


A New Fuehrer

In 1941 the Gestapo chief Heinrich Mueller was informed by the local Gestapo duty station in Breslau that a man who worked in a printing plant there was almost an exact double of Adolf Hitler. He had them photograph him and after seeing the pictures acknowledged that the resemblance was remarkable. He was younger and a little shorter than Hitler. His hair was cut differently and he had no moustache. He smoked and was a bit fatter than Hitler. The man was born in the Waldviertel district of Austria and was a distant relative of Hitler. Actually, a number of people from that area bore some resemblance to Hitler. This man's family had moved north of Prague.
At first, Hitler did not want any part of this, especially when he learned that the man was his distant relative as Hitler was very severe about anyone interviewing one of his relatives. However, Mueller eventually convinced Hitler of the security value of having a double. Ultimately, the man was only used for a few very brief appearances after the 20 July 1944 bomb attempt and during the final week of April 1945 in the bunker. He only met Hitler twice in a secure office across the street from the Reichschancellery in order for him to learn to impersonate certain petty details which could only be acquired from an up close encounter such as where Hitler held his hand when he signed a letter, certain phrases Hitler customarily used when he talked, et cetera. Hitler remarked to Muller that meeting this man was like looking into a mirror.
The double was given extra heel supports in his shoes, made quit smoking and lose weight. The double was furnished with a set of Adolf Hitler's uniforms manufactured by the same tailor. Of course, the tailor never met or even knew of the existence of this man as it was a state secret. Only Muller, Hitler and a few others ever knew about this. The only members of Hitler's inner circle who knew were his longtime personal valet Heinz Linge and Johann Rattenhuber who was the chief of Hitler's personal security. According to Muller, Hitler's military adjutant Otto Gunsche probably figured this business out as well.


The Reichschancellery Bunker

There existed two ways in and out of the bunker complex. One is through the Chancellery and the other is an emergency exit into the Chancellery garden. Located at a lower level than the upper bunker, Hitler's personal quarters alone contained an emergency exit to the garden. Hitler got everyone used to his going upstairs with his dog for a walk in the garden at night. Usually, the garden was heavily guarded with dogs and floodlights, but when Hitler went up for his brief walks the lights were dimmed and the security dogs removed. Sometimes Hitler would come up with Linge and sometimes alone. Rattenhuber who was the head of all these security operations was also privy to the business about the double.

The following is taken from the September / October 1948 interrogation of Heinrich Mueller by an american CIA official:

American Interrogator - When was the last time you saw Hitler alive during the month of April, 1945 and where did you see him?

Mueller - On the 22nd of April in the evening, about 2030 hours. I last saw him in the garden of the Chancellery.

American Interrogator - Did...was he alive at the time?

Mueller - He was quite alive.

American Interrogator - You spoke with him then?

Mueller - I did.

American Interrogator - Were ther any other people present at that time?

Mueller - Yes, Linge his valet was there and Rattenhuber came a little later on.

American Interrogator - Was there anyone else with Hitler when you last saw him?

Mueller - His shepherd. That's all. He had his dog on a leash. At that time, he was supposed to be walking his dog in the garden.

American Interrogator - Did you speak with him at that time?

Mueller - Yes, or rather he spoke with me.

American Interrogator - Could you tell me what he said at that time?

Mueller - Yes. He shook my hand warmly and thanked me from his heart for all i had done for him and the country. He hoped that I would see him soon and he wished my family to be safe from harm. He handed...no, he had Linge hand me a leather briefcase and he told me...that is Hitler told me...that this was all he could do for me now and then he shook my hand again, this time with tears in eyes.

American Interrogator - And what did he do then? After he gave you the briefcase?

Mueller - Yes...well now...he walked away with Linge and his dog and I did not see him again. A little while later Linge came back to where I was waiting and I remember he too was weeping.

American Interrogator - Did Linge say anything?

Mueller - Yes. He said, "The Chief is gone. I will never see him again."

American Interrogator - By "gone" did he mean Hitler was dead? That he killed him for example?

Mueller - No, we both knew what Linge meant. He said that Hitler had left, and he would never see him again. Not dead, just left.

American Interrogator - I see. You are positive of this?

Mueller - Absolutely. If you wish me to be specific, Hitler left Berlin, alive on the 22nd of April, the year 1945.

American Interrogator - You...Rattenhuber was mentioned. You said a few moments ago that he came along to where you were. Is that correct?

Mueller - He did.

American Interrogator - Was Linge still there?

Mueller - Yes. He was very upset at the time.

American Interrogator - Did Rattenhuber know about this...departure?

Mueller - Of course he did.

American Interrogator - And he came up to you in the Chancellery garden then. Did he say anything about Hitler?

Mueller - Yes. He said, "The Chief is gone, but now we have a new Chief."

American Interrogator - A new Chief? Was he speaking of Hitler?

Mueller - He was speaking about the new Chief.

American Interrogator - Do you mean Martin Bormann?

Mueller - No. I mean that we had a new Hitler.

American Interrogator - What is that?

Mueller - He came with Rattenhuber. A new Hitler.

American Interrogator - You do not grasp what I am asking you. Who was the new Chief, who replaced Hitler that night?

Mueller - His double.

American Interrogator - We have heard rumors about a double before. The Soviets have claimed a double might have been used. Are you certain about this?

Mueller - Yes.


Mueller - ...It was a very simple matter for Hitler to come up at night for his walk, with Linge or alone. He left through another exit from the garden and the double went back down into the bunker with another sheepdog from the kennels. All of this happened in my presence so I can assure you that I am not guessing about it. We kept the double out of view as much as we could. There were a number of visits from people really not close to Hitler, but as few as possible. Goebbels and Linge were the best help in this matter. I remember Bormann saying to me in a very worried manner, "The Chief looks very different, Mueller. Do you think he might have had some kind of a stroke?" I said I didn't think so.

American Interrogator - ...Let us get back to the matter of the double. The Russians found him dead in the garden, buried in the ground as we know. Excellent. Now how did he come to be underground?

Mueller - Obviously he was dead.

American Interrogator - I'm aware of that. How did he come to die?

Mueller - You read the Russian reports. He was shot once in the head with a small calbre pistol.

American Interrogator - Did he shoot himself?

Mueller - No, he did not.

American Interrogator - Who shot him then?

Mueller - I cannot remember. It was such a confusing time after all.

American Interrogator - But you knew he was shot?

Mueller - Of course. I helped bury him. That was a dangerous thing, trying to bury him. The Russians were shelling everything and you never knew when a few shells might land on top of you.

American Interrogator - Was he expecting to be shot?

Mueller - Probably not. I think he felt he might leave Berlin as some sort of a false trail.

American Interrogator - Did you mislead him?

Mueller - I discussed matters with him and put things in a light to ease his worries. Put it that way if you will. He was drugged at the time he died in any case. If he had been captured alive, there would have been serious problems as you can imagine.

For the entire conversation:
Amazon.com: Gestapo Chief : The 1948 Interrogation of Heinrich Muller, Volume 1


The Flight of the Wolf

In 'The Warplanes of the Third Reich' by William Green (1972) on page 508:

"The sole Ju290 A-6 was initially conceived as a pressurized personnel transport for Hitler's personal flight. Some pressurization trials were conducted at Prague but this scheme was abandoned at an early stage, and the aircraft was completed as an unpressurized 50-passenger transport. This aircraft was eventually taken on the strength of I./KG 200 at Finsterwalde for special transport operations, and in the last week of April 1945, was flown to Barcelona by Hauptmann Braun, the original Staffelkapitan of LTS 290 who subsequently served with FAGr 5, and with the disbandment of that Gruppe, joined Kampfgeschwader 200.
The I/KG 200 was largely responsible for the transportation of escaping NAzi leaders, and the identity of the passengers ferried to Barcelona aboard the Ju290 A-6 is open to conjecture."

- 'The Warplanes of the Third Reich' by William Green


According to Gregory Douglas, on 22 April 1945 an Fa 223 Dragon (helicoptre) flew from the Reichschancellery in Berlin, Germany to Hoersching Airfield (southwest of Linz in north central Austria).
Douglas also states that one of these aircraft was captured by the allied forces at Hoersching airfield (which was apparently renamed Camp McCauley in 1948). According to the wikipedia article, two of these helicopters were captured at an airfield near Berchtesgaden. Given the time delay between 22 and 26 April, possibly Hitler made a final stop at the Wolfschanze before heading on to Spain.

On 27 April 1945, a Junkers Ju 290 A-6 arrived at Barcelona, Spain.

"One Ju-290A-6 was built and used as a fifty-seat transport in the F?hrer-Kurrierstaffel, Hitler's private transport unit commanded by Flugkapit?n Heinz Baur. It was finally scrapped in Spain in the mid-1950s due to lack of spares."

Special features of the Fuehrertransport:

- an armored ejection seat with built-in parachute and 13mm steel on all sides designed to fall free by operation of an ejection handle. Successfully tested with dummies.

- All windows constructed of 50mm thick bulletproof glass.

- area where Hitler sat protected by additional armor on roof, floor , and sides of fuselage

This palne was scrapped by the Spanish in 1956, but Hitler's armored chair still exists.

OSS Telegram From Agent Molden 8 March 1945

Telegram 6487, Document 5-55 / 8 March 1945

"Source K-28, report B-1839. In Pocking, lower Bavaria near Braunnau between Zeithen and Schoenberg, recognizable by two hangers and large runways is located part of "Fleiger Staffel Adolf Hitler." Work going on actively in hangars. There is one 4-motored JU 290 being luxuriously equipped with armored plates, bulletproof glass, guns fore and aft, etc. Capacity 20-22 perons. Delivery originally fixed for February 28 for Berchtesgaden now postponed to middle March. Hitler greatly disturbed over delay. Original plan called for three machines but, on account of material shortage, only one built. General Bauer, air pilot of Fuehrer, personally supervising reconstruction together with assembly man Zintel. Bauer also practicing handling of airplane."


The British Source of the Suicide Theory

The source of the publicity of the suicide theory is British intelligence. As the Russians had complete control of the Chancellery area, the British MI6 sent their own man to do a report. They sent a young Oxford student who could not read, write, or speak German. His name was Hugh Trevor-Roper. Roper's report was later made into a book entitled 'The Last Days of Hitler' which became the standard account of the last days of Hitler and constitutes the foundation of Trevor-Roper's fame. This book contains many outright lies such as an interview with an alleged SS member of the Reichschancellery security detail by the name of Herman Karnau who claimed he saw Hitler's body burning. It has been shown that the Reichschancellery employed no one by that name and even searches of the SS personnel files did not include the name of this fictitious person. Roper-doper also invented Erich Mansfeld out of nothingness, and attributed statements to Hitler's valet Heinz Linge although Linge was unavailable to Trevor-Roper since he was already in a Soviet prison.

The bad publicity which the MI6 agent Trevor-Roper famously received in the early 1980's for his endorsement of the phony 'Hitler Diaries' was long overdue.

The Hitler suicide theory should be recognized as the fabrication of the liar who authored it - the British agent Hugh Trevor-Roper.


Based on Gregory Douglas (whose real name is apparently Peter Stahl and according to Germar Rudolf appears to be Gestapo Chief Heinrich Muller's biological nephew), the Argentina story is a bunch of rot intended to divert any search. Adolf Hitler ultimately moved to Costa Rica.

Searching For the Truth
Germar Rudolf's (of www.vho.org ) investigation into the controversy between David Irving and Gregory Douglas in which he reveals that Douglas is Muller's nephew.


May 3, 1945. Pravda: ?Hitler not in Berlin.?

May 13, 1945. Pravda: ?Moscow has directed the senior officers of the Red Army in Berlin to discuss nothing about the situation in the F?hrerbunker.?

May 26, 1945. Josef Stalin to Harry Hopkins in Moscow: ?In my opinion Hitler is not dead but is hiding somewhere.?

June 6, 1945, Red Army spokesman from Marshal Zhukov?s staff: ?Hitler?s body has been found and identified.?

June 9, 1945. Marshal Zhukov, accompanied by Andre Vishinski, Deputy Foreign Minister and General N. Bezarin, Soviet military commandant of Berlin, held a press conference for Western journalists. Zhukov stated that ?Hitler?s fate was doubtful? and that ?we did not identify the body of Hitler. I can say nothing definite about his fate. He could have flown away from Berlin at the very last moments.?

To this, General Bezarin added that in his personal opinion, ?he has disappeared somewhere in Europe. Perhaps he is in Spain with Franco. He had the possibility of taking off and getting away.?


17 November

  • Flat Earth Believer
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Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2010, 02:14:31 PM »
The body seen by Rochus Misch was the body of the Hitler double described by Mueller, the last surviving man to have been in the bunker - now in his nineties.  Note in the interview that he says after the body was carried upstairs by Linge and another that he and others were afrid to go upstairs because MUELLER OF THE GESTAPO WAS THERE AND HE NEVER USUALLY HUNG AROUND THE BUNKER.


Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2010, 02:18:03 PM »
Sounds like a lot of conspiracy theory bull-crap to me.
There is evidence for a NASA conspiracy. Please search.


17 November

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Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2010, 02:26:16 PM »
Quote from: Canadark
Sounds like a lot of conspiracy theory bull-crap to me.

If you cannot produce a body, then the suicide view is the theoretical garbage as far as I see it.  Franco's Spain was the logical stopover before heading on to central america.

In the late 1980's, jewish holocaust researcher Gitta Sereny recovered an Army counter-intelligence memo from 1948 which indicated that Hitler had been relocated after the war.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 03:26:05 PM by 17 November »


17 November

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Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2010, 03:23:32 PM »
As to holocaust researcher Gitta Sereny's finding Douglas writes "In the early 1980s, a file on former SS General and concentration camp head, Odlio Globocnik surfaced in the hands of John Costello, an English researcher and historical writer. Costello had obtained this file, and other explosive papers, from Robert T. Crowley, once Deputy Director of the CIA's Clandestine Operations Division.

Because the contents were considered by the finder as too controversial for him to deal with in print, it was passed on to one Gregory Douglas, another researcher who was digging into the post-war history of Heinrich M?ller.In 1988, a copy of this file was sent to Gitta Sereny, an American of Hungarian origin ... "


"Sereny found the contents of sufficient concern to bring them to the attention of a major British newspaper who duly commissioned her to write an article on the papers. Before progressing further with this subject, seven important pages are transcribed so that their impact can be better understood.

These papers are US Army Counter Intelligence (CIC) reports. They are dated 30 November 1948
and were prepared in the CIC Region VIII headquarters located in Berlin. The author of the initial report
was one Severin F. Wallach, a CIC Special Agent and a Viennese-born Jew who specialized in
interrogations of German sources."

The highlights of the report are:

"SUBJECT:  Former SS Generals MUELLER and GLOBOCNIK/ RE: Soviet Investigations/
RE: Project UEBERSEE/3. The file number is VIII-12203.

1. Recent investigations by special teams of Soviet agents in the Western Zones seeking definitive
information about the possible whereabouts of former SS Generals Heinrich MUELLER and Odilo
GLOBOCNIK have apparently uncovered sufficient information to justify increased activity.

2.Allegedly the Soviets have uncovered leads which cause them to suspect that the two above
named subjects were not killed at the end of the war. This is part of their ongoing probings in re(ference)
the possible possession of the West of high level Nazi leaders wanted by the Soviets either for trial or
possible intelligence use by their agencies.

3. Up to this point in time, Soviet efforts have been directed towards discovering the whereabouts of HITLER, BORMANN and former SS General FEGELEIN. The Soviet view that these leaders fled from Berlin in April/May of 1945 and are being harbored in the West has been officially and strongly denied by careful coordination of all Western agencies concerned.

4. As former chief of the GESTAPO, MUELLER is an especially attractive target for the Soviets but GLOBOCNIK, because of his connections with the concentration camp system in Poland is considered to be a more valuable propaganda target.

5. MUELLER's value to Western intelligence is beyond doubt but continued protection of
GLOBOCNIK might prove to be an extreme embarrassment. British intelligence, because of their
cooperation in the transfer of GLOBOCNIK, has become increasingly insistent that GLOBOCNIK either
be terminated at once or relocated in such a manner as to totally remove him from Soviet investigators
areas of search. (Here is a handwritten comment: approved and the initials JST)

6. GLOBOCNIK's value as an expert on partisan warfare has proven to be less than useful. The current projects he is involved in do not appear to be supplying the desired information or is the Historical Section (of the US Army) pleased with the quality of his information."


"ANNEX A- The Development and Usage of Former Senior SS Officers
Subject: Former SS Generals GLOBOCNIK and MUELLER

1.With the evident intentions of the Soviet powers to force a military solution upon the Western Powers in the immediate future, it has become evident that the Germans will be called upon to assist in the defense of their country as well as the other countries of Europe.

2. The Western Powers are sadly lacking in meaningful intelligence concerning the strengths and
weaknesses of the Soviets and that only the body of military technicians with recent and valuable
experience are the Germans.

3. The decision to rebuild the German Armed Forces under the aegis of the Western Powers has
already been taken and is now in train. Study and Historical groups composed of former German military
personnel with direct strategic and tactical experience in dealing with the Soviet military are rapidly
achieving the goals set for them.

4. Parallel with the development of military structures is the construction of intelligence gathering agencies, again composed of experienced German military personnel. These former Wehrmacht members have indicated considerable willingness to cooperate with the Western Powers.

5. Following the 20th of July attempt on HITLER?s life, the SS took over the functions of the
Abwehr. Both the Gestapo under General MUELLER and the SD under General Kaltenbrunner finally
controlled nearly all the incoming flow of intelligence. German Army intelligence was under the control of
the Chief of the General Staff and directed by General GEHLEN of Foreign Armies East.

6. The great majority of former Wehrmacht personnel of field grade and higher are strongly anti-
Nazi, were often involved in anti-HITLER plots and lived in fear of HIMMLER and his SS. Therefore,
ongoing cooperation between the former Wehrmacht members and former SS members would be difficult
in the extreme.

7. Also considered is the loyalty of the SS to HITLER. The army was not loyal to HITLER but the
SS was his private army and swore an oath of loyalty to him alone. Most surviving SS members are not
aware of HITLER's departure from Berlin and assume he died in the defense of the city. Their immediate
loyalty is certainly not to the Western Powers. As SS men are accustomed to a totalitarian state, many have sought out cooperation with the Soviets, the closest to their former system. Individual SS men can certainly be used but must be carefully watched. In the event of a Soviet invasion of Europe, their assistance might well swing over to the Soviets.

8. As the reemergence of HITLER on the international scene, even in the event of a renewal of hostilities with the Soviets, is completely unthinkable, the use of his elite troops in combat or intelligence gathering is not foreseen at present.

9. The transfer of vast sums of money abroad by BORMANN during the last years of the war has
proven to be of considerable use to the Western Powers. Former Nazis have agreed to relinquish a portion
of their funds to aid the United States in its attempts to defend Europe against Soviet military adventures.
Furthermore, a considerable body of extremely valuable information has been made available to US
intelligence agencies. Former SS General MUELLER has proven to be of genuine worth and his
intelligence files of tremendous value.

10. MUELLER himself is certainly not a Nazi, having joined the Party very late. As a former
member of the Bavarian State Police whose duty it was to neutralize the early Nazi movement, he feels that
his survival and promotion was a miracle and he fully expected to be arrested in 1933. MUELLER is a
professional police officer who specializes in internal political affairs and is well known as being strongly
anti-Communist. His cooperation has proved to be of the greatest value. As soon as MUELLER?s transfer
to the United States has been approved, he will be flown out of Berlin along with his entire collection of
files. These files have been stored under conditions of extraordinary security at Wolzogenstrasse 15,
Region VII Headquarters."

Source of 1948 Army CIC Memo:


17 November

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Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2010, 04:11:04 PM »
The name of Hitler's double was Gustav Weler.  The fact that he was shot in the forehead in the Reichschancellery shortly before the Soviets arrived and that he was at first mistaken for Hitler and flown to Moscow is widely accepted as an historical fact.  

According to a 9 May 1945 New York Times article, one of Hitler's servants said that Weler "had been assassinated because of his startling likeness to Hitler, while the latter had escaped from the ruins of Berlin".  Note the wikipedia article's lack of a citation for a source for the claim that Hitler himself was cremated.


The following website contains photographs of the corpse of Hitler's double Gustav Weler taken by Soviets in the Reichschancelery in Berlin in early May 1945.



17 November

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Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2010, 04:29:25 PM »
According to Douglas, Gestapo Chief Heinrich Mueller settled in Washington, DC and became the personal friend of Harry Truman.  He developed much of america's anti-communist post-war strategy, particularly during the Truman era.  The Roosevelt era OSS, the CIA's forerunner, having many anti-Nazi personnel was dismantled by Truman because it was leftist heavy.  The whole purpose of the dismantling and restructuring of that organization between late 1945 and 1947 when it became the CIA (which constitutes the heart of the invisible or real government) was to eliminate its left-of-centre minded personnel who were largely transferred to the State Department and subsequently persecuted in the McCarthy era.  Mueller was in on all of this.  He also employed two personal assassins who on several occasions did kill persons whom he deemed too inquisitive or aggressive in discovering his actual identity.  

Mueller's memoirs describe how he used the personal file system which he developed as head of the Gestapo and implemented it in the United States as the basis of a personal surveillance system.


17 November

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Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2010, 07:55:45 PM »
I defer to the comments of other readers of this book.


This following concise review from Amazon is rather pointed:


"Can this book be true? Is it a hoax like the HITLER DIARIES? Is it a hoax like Clifford Irvings "Unauthorized Biography of Howard Hughes"? For all our sakes it better damn well be. What scares me is that I cannot refute a page of it. It is either the most shocking story to come out of WWII or the best fairy tale ever written. No wonder the first edition is out of print. If this book is true then Mr Douglas should get a Pulitzer, if a hoax , he should be applauded for writing the best hoax of the 20th century. However in my heart I fear every word is true. It will take a smarter person than me to refute the allegations in this book."

Anyone tempted to believe the one critical Amazon reviewer who claimed that editor Gregory Douglas cleverly invented all of this is recommended to review Germar Rudolf's revealing investigation of Douglas.

The conclusion is that aside from merely claiming that Gregory Douglas simply invented these stories and is  telling a huge lie, no one has been able to refute what he has presented which are the personal records of  Heinrich Mueller who entrusted them to him back in the 1960's and died in 1983.


17 November

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Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2010, 09:29:31 PM »
At this point, out of twelve votes cast, the voting is:

6 - Conventional View That Hitler Died in the Bunker in late April 1945
2 - Hitler Escaped
4 - Perhaps He Escaped

At this point, an equal number consider that an escape occurred perhaps possible that believe he died on the spot (6 and 6).
I had not much expectation that others would even consider this remotely possible and would simply bash it as wild extreme conspiracy theory, et al.  Perhaps some of the four who voted "perhaps" had looked over some of the material which I gleaned from the book and posted above before voting. 

I have also provided that anyone can switch their own vote if they so choose.  I humbly suggest to anyone who cares about the truth to hear both sides of the issue before casting a vote.



  • 18945
  • Extra Racist
Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2010, 09:31:10 PM »
At this point, out of twelve votes cast, the voting is:

6 - Conventional View That Hitler Died in the Bunker in late April 1945
2 - Hitler Escaped
4 - Perhaps He Escaped

At this point, an equal number consider that an escape occurred perhaps possible that believe he died on the spot (6 and 6).
I had not much expectation that others would even consider this remotely possible and would simply bash it as wild extreme conspiracy theory, et al.  Perhaps some of the four who voted "perhaps" had looked over some of the material which I gleaned from the book and posted above before voting. 

I have also provided that anyone can switch their own vote if they so choose.  I humbly suggest to anyone who cares about the truth to hear both sides of the issue before casting a vote.

I don't believe everything I read.

This post is on topic.

It's no slur if it's fact.



  • 3077
  • Canadian Philosopher
Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2010, 09:32:26 PM »
Picards were better than this copypasta bullshit...This isn't discussion, this is spaming psychopathic rant
Quote from: President Barack Obama
Pot had helped
Get the fuck over it.


17 November

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Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2010, 02:42:24 AM »
Since this thread deals so much with the testimony of Gestapo head Heinrich Mueller, it is appropriate to mention another spectacular book on the Gestapo - this written by an anti-Nazi writer - the ex-Gestapo officer Hansjurgen Koehler who defected to Britain in the late 1930's and published this book in 1940.

Inside the Gestapo:  Hitler's Shadow Over the World
By Hansjurgen Koehler

The american title of the same book was 'Inside Information.'

I mention this informative book from 1940 especially because of a chapter entitled the Fatal File which reveals much critical information about Hitler himself which is little known.  I will outline the contents of the "fatal file" later, but the file was compiled by Hitler's enemies in Germany during the 1920's and after 1933 by the Chancellor's of Austria into whose posession it was sent after Hitler took power in Germany.  Engelbert Dollfuss (who was assassinated by the Gestapo) obtained Hitler's original birth certificate and that of his father and much information on the history of his family in the nineteenth century. 

What I am getting at is that it appears from this book that during the 1830's Hitler's paternal grandmother was seduced while working as a maid in her early forties and no father's name appears on Alois's birth certificate.  This much is well known.

Maria Schicklgruber

What Koehler reveals it that it was his responsibility to steal the file (which he did as the file was being used as blackmail to prevent an invasion of Austria - the Anschluss invasion of Austria in fact occurred less than a week after the file was recovered), and when he was assigned this job he was shown the only photocopy of it in existence at the time by his superior Reinhard Heydrich privately in Heydrich's office.

The most spectacular peice of information is that Maria Schicklgruber was working in the Rothschild mansion in Vienna when she was seduced by her employer which means that Adolf Hitler is a member of the wealthy jewish Rothschild family.  The fact that Hitler was a jew is corroborated by financier and Rothschild collaborator Sidney Warburg in his well known book of the same era:

'Hitler's Secret Backer's'
By Sidney Warburg

Aside from the conspiracy aspect, I ask myself if it makes sense.  Well, it certainly does ecopnomically. Nazism is definitely a product of and servant of capitalism, and capitalism's leading family are the Rothschilds.
I first discovered 'Inside the Gestapo' from reading israeli historian Bryan Mark Rigg's outstanding book
'Hitler's Jewish Soldiers' which discusses sources of Hitler's jewish background.

The outspoken classic analysis of Hitler's jewish background and pro-zionist politics is:

'Adolf Hitler Founder of Israel:  Israel at War With the Jews'
By Kardel (1974)

Most jews were traditional assimilationists and hated zionism.  Hitler and the zionists forced them to leave their true homes as part of thir zionist program.  The return of jews to Palestine was Hitler's childhood dream as a young Viennese jew - one that he successfully achieved.



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Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2010, 06:05:01 AM »
What white supremacist forum did you steal this from?  I would like to join them.



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Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2010, 06:07:24 AM »

He writes good stuff over there.


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Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2010, 06:21:04 PM »
What white supremacist forum did you steal this from?  I would like to join them.

I don't know where you got that idea because I listed my sources.

Evidently, you have not read much of what I wrote in the last post because anyone who bothers to actually read what I have written can see that it is considerably anti-Nazi.  I was considering posting a link to a Trotskyite book (from Bookmarks Bookshop http://www.bookmarksbookshop.co.uk/cgi/store/bookmark.cgi ) demonstrating the connections between Nazism and capitalism.  As I stated before, the material about Hitler being jewish came from anti-Nazi literature such as Koehler's book. 


He writes good stuff over there.

As Dann is aware, I did not get any of this material from Stormfront.  Dann says I write good stuff over there because I posted on that website a lot of criticism of Adolf Hitler including the fact that he was a Rothschild zionist jew and most of the pro-Hitler fascists over there were very offended because I had torpedoed their hero.
See for example,


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Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2010, 06:26:48 PM »
Picards were better than this copypasta bullshit...This isn't discussion, this is spaming psychopathic rant

Although you obviously do not believe the material presented in this thread, I did want to point out that in case you have Mao Tse Tung's photograph as a logo because you admire him, then we actually have something in common.  (And I would recommend books by his friend Edgar Snow as well as books on Maoism and China from Monthly Review Press.)



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Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2010, 06:31:35 AM »
Picards were better than this copypasta bullshit...This isn't discussion, this is spaming psychopathic rant

Although you obviously do not believe the material presented in this thread, I did want to point out that in case you have Mao Tse Tung's photograph as a logo because you admire him, then we actually have something in common.  (And I would recommend books by his friend Edgar Snow as well as books on Maoism and China from Monthly Review Press.)

I have him because it's ironic, not because I admire a mass murderer. Snow was just a Mao lackey with his head up his own ass. I would recommend "Mao, The Unknown Story" by Jiang Chang.
Quote from: President Barack Obama
Pot had helped
Get the fuck over it.


17 November

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Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2010, 12:47:30 PM »
Well, the voting as to whether or not A. Hitler escaped between "perhaps" and "yes" on one side versus "no" on the other side is still tied (8 to 8 ), but the "yes" votes are increasing.

I recently came across a reference to a Trotskyite book which I thought important because it demonstrates that nazism is a form of capitalism and the relation it has to other forms of capitalism.  I want to read it for the wise economic lessons (which we can use to see similar trends today), but also because such a book (which is not concerned with conspiracy) delineates the basic relationships upon which such a conspiracy as Hitler's ties to and assistance from other servants of capitalism are naturally based.

The following booklet is not the exact book of which I was speaking (which was a larger historical analysis), but it is related:

Fascism:  What It Is and How to Fight It
By Leon Trotsky


To Benocrates: I want to at some point in the near future resurrect an ancient thread which contains a debate between "flying leaf" (who is a pro-Chiang Kai-shek Taiwanese) and myself and continue to refute anti-Maoism, but not in this thread except to say that Jiang Chang is the latest recycling of old anti-communist garbage.  

Edgar Snow's only mistake was that he was perhaps not critical enough of Stalin.  Yet it was from non other than Edgar Snow that I learned of the harm that Stalin had done to revolution in China, and Stalin's aid to capitalism and the forces of repression.  Stalin transformed the Communist International into an instrument of sophisticated counter-revolutionary capitalism, and Mao saw through it.  Colonialism and capitalism horribly exploited the Chinese people economically and addicted many to opium (which Mao put a stop to during the 1950's).  Mao and other communists established several large enclaves in China's hinterland during the early 1930's, and Stalin's Comintern directed that the Chinese communists in these hard won enclaves fight Chiang kai-shek's better supplied and financed forces in open battle.  This was a fatal strategy which resulted in the loss of the enclaves to the imperialist backed forces of Chiang.  Mao had opposed Stalin's strategy from the beginning and had advocated guerilla warfare which was most advantageous given their position, but the leaders listened to Stalin prior to about 1934.  The loss of these enclaves forced the Chinese communists into a brutal strategic retreat known as the long march during which the communists recognized that Mao had been correct all along and elected him leader.  

This highlights an extremely underrated difference between Mao and Stalin which some Trotskyites tend to minimize and thus side with pro-capitalists and americanists in their condemnation of Mao Tse Tung which is an unfortunate and unnecessary divide between leaders of underclasses.  Trotsky, Mao, and Castro all have comparable overall visions which are NOT essentially contradictory, and I dig all three of them.

Trotsky wrote in 1940 that since World War II was essentially a war between america and Germany for world hegemony in the twilight of the British empire, american entrance to the war was inevitable.  He wrote that the year he was assassinated by Stalin's agent which was over a year before america did enter the war just as he predicted.  Trotsky stated that the difference between america and nazi Germany was insignificant in contrast with the difference which both of them have with communism.  (Trotsky's criticism of Stalin is stronger than that of Stalin's capitalist allies, but Ygal Gluckstein took Trotskyism to its logical conclusion by demonstrating that Stalin was a capitalist agent sent to smash the Bolshevik revolution and effectively reestablish exploitative capitalist Tsarism  in Russia - which is exactly what Stalin did.

State Capitalism in Russia

My idea of the great leaders of WWII and the 1950's and '60's are not Eisenhower and Kennedy, but Mao and Zhou Enlai.  Many key Nazis such as Heinrich Mueller were placed in authoritative positions in the american world system after the war.  Capitalist america has always been a major source of fascism everywhere, and we need a Maoist revolution to deal the death blow to america's power, and burn down the white house (for some reason, every time I hear 'Soul Finger' by Isaac Hayes and the Bar Kays, I seem to visualize it as a triumphant Maoist victory song).



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Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2010, 04:22:04 PM »
On the lighter side, a portrayal of the sociable aspects of anti-communism  :)


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Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2010, 11:53:53 PM »
I would recommend "Mao, The Unknown Story" by Jiang Chang.

If anyone buys that compilation of prejudiced lies, then do compare it with the following:

'The Battle for China's Past: Mao and the Cultural Revolution'
By Mobo Gao

"A powerful mixture of political passion and original research, a brave polemic against the fashionable view on China. ... Aims a knockout blow at Jung Chang's recent book on Mao, which Bush and the conservatives rave-reviewed." Gregor Benton, Professor of Chinese History, University of Cardiff

"This important book opens a much needed window onto Chinese perceptions of the country's post-Mao direction. ... Highlights the renewal of popular support for socialism and the growing opposition to contemporary state policies." --Martin Hart-Landsberg, Professor of Economics, Lewis & Clark College, Portland, Oregon

I would add that Mao even predicted the capitalist road that China would relapse into after his death well before it happened.  This is obvious when one reads what he wrote during the great cultural revolution which lasted from 1966 to 1976.



Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2010, 04:22:23 AM »
I saw a doco that the Russians had his remains up till 1975, whats the theory on Eva Brown did she leave with Hitler too? ;D


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Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2010, 03:13:27 PM »
I saw a doco that the Russians had his remains up till 1975, whats the theory on Eva Brown did she leave with Hitler too?

Interesting.  Please state the name of this documentary as this body sounds like the remains of Gustav Weler, Hitler's double. 

The history of this is dealt with in 'Gestapo Chief' edited by Gregory Douglas which purports to be the highlights of a 1948 CIA job interview with former Gestapo Chief Heinrich Mueller who divulged the essential details of Hitler's escape.  About April 22 a Junkers plane carrying a small group including Hitler, Eva Braun and General Fegelein flew to Franco's Spain.  This plane was scrapped in the mid-1950's. 

Gestapo Chief Heinrich Mueller, Rattenhuber (chief of Hitler's personal security who was in on the secret about the double), and Linge (Hitler's valet) drugged and shot the double in the forehead about a day before the Russians arrived.  This is the Hitler double which the Russians found buried in a shallow grave in the courtyard.  This body was shipped to Russia.  In May Stalin authored an article in Pravda which stated that Hitler is not dead, but is hiding somewhere. 

Speaking of Hitler doubles, the jewish actor Charlie Chaplin directed, produced, and starred in an anti-Hitler classic in 1940 entitled 'The Great Dictator' which was the first non-silent movie he ever made.  At the end of the movie a poor jewish peasant who bears a strong resemblance to the real dictator successfully switches places. 

During his 1948 job interview for work with the CIA, Gestapo Mueller refused to divulge any knowledge of Hitler's where abouts to the young CIA businessman conducting the interview.  His only reply was "For all I know, he had dinner with your people last week."


Heinrich Mueller adopted a false identity and became personal friends with President Harry Truman of whom it must be said was one of the most fascist presidents in american history.  Like Lyndon Johnson, Truman was up to his ears in the mob.  The Pendergast mob put Truman in the Senate. 

Fascism and mafia alliances were not as characteristic of Franklin Roosevelt whose administration conducted a war against the mafia which included the breakup of the Pendergast gang.  Geneal MacArthur was effectively J. Morgan's hitman that would have temporarily become american president if a coup against Roosevelt in the 1930's had been deemed necessary.  Roosevelt correspondingly modified his new deal which ultimately constituted the outer limit of any reforms.  In the eyes of Morgan and the elite, the new deal could be used to appease the masses and therefore undermine any revolution or overthrow of their exploitative system. 

Franklin Roosevelt was assassinated in 1945 and replaced with Truman's fascist administration.  In 1948, Joseph Stalin told Roosevelt's son that in 1945 he had ordered Andrei Gromyko, the Soviet Union's Ambassador to the United States to Franklin Roosevelt's funeral to personally view the body.  Eleanor Roosevelt was not therefore allowed to visit Russia because she had refused to have the coffin opened which Stalin claimed would have revealed a discoloured face and neck due to poisoning by British intelligence. 

The CIA's WWII predecessor OSS had been composed of many leftists and idealists and was therefore broken apart between late 1945 and 1947.  Many of these OSS veterans who had fought the war against Nazism were transferred to the State Department and became the subjects of McCarthyite witch hunts in ensuing years.  The CIA which emerged from this whole process was a secretive fascist organization run by capitalists and former Nazis which constitutes the heart of the alliances which have held the real power in the United States since its creation.  While in Germany, Mueller developed a system of file cards on every person in Germany.  When working for the CIA, Mueller began the same system as the basis for a comprehensive surveillance system in the United States.


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Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2010, 03:34:23 PM »

By Lieutenant Colonel L. Fletcher Prouty, USAF (Ret.)

The World War II Cairo conference between Pres. Roosevelt, Prime Minister Churchill, and Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek ended on Oct. 26, 1943. That evening I was given orders to fly a group of participants from Cairo to Tehran. Up to that time, I had not been aware that there was going to be a Big Four meeting of the Super-Powers in Tehran.

As I went out to the plane that morning to get it ready to go, two limousines came from the city. They were T. V. Soong's Chinese delegates. I flew them to Tehran that day.

En route, I stopped at Habbaniyah in Iraq for refueling, and while on the ground an Air Force B-25 arrived with an old friend of mine flying it, and with L. Col. Elliott Roosevelt, the President's son. I introduced him and Roosevelt to the Chinese, and vice versa.

I don't know whether any of you ever realized this, but years later the fact that Elliott Roosevelt had gone to the Tehran conference brought up one of the most amazing untold facts in our history. I can only imagine why more had not been written about it.

Because Elliott had met Stalin in Tehran with his father in 1943, in late 1946, Gardner Cowless, publisher of LOOK magazine asked him to go to Moscow to interview Stalin.

Roosevelt accepted this offer and did interview Stalin there. At the end of a long interview, he turned to the Generalissimo and asked one more question, "Why is it that my mother has never been permitted to visit Moscow even though she has made three very formal applications for the trip?"

Stalin glared at Elliott and said, "You don't know why?"

Elliott replied, "No!"

Quickly, Stalin responded, "Don't you know who killed your father?"

Roosevelt-shocked-answered, "No."

Stalin rising from his chair, continued, "Well, I'll tell you why I have not invited her here. As soon as your father died, I asked my ambassador in Washington to go immediately to Georgia with a request to view the body." Stalin believed that if Gromyko could see the body he would confirm that the cerebral hemorrhage that had caused his death had caused extensive discoloration and distortion.

Elliot responded that he knew nothing about that and then Stalin said, "Your mother refused to permit the lid of the coffin to be opened so that my ambassador could see the body." Adding "I sent him there three times trying to impress upon your mother that it was very important for him to view the President's body. She never accepted that. I have never forgiven her."

This forced Elliott to ask this last question, "But why?"

Stalin took a few steps around the office, and almost in a rage roared, "They poisoned your father, of course, just as they have tried repeatedly to poison me."

"They, who are they?" Elliot asked.

"The Churchill gang!" Stalin roared, "They poisoned your father, and they continue to try to poison me.  The Churchill gang!"

I had heard, while in Tehran, that Roosevelt and Churchill had had a strenuous argument in front of Stalin and Chiang during the conference on the subject of decolonialization of South East Asia. I have read it in a government publication of the time. Then, this account of Elliott's visit to Moscow in 1946 was written and signed by him and appeared in the February 9, 1986 issue of the nationwide Sunday Supplement magazine "PARADE."

We all know that there are amazing stories that can not be found in the history books.
That is what I am saying here. Most students have not been able to learn that Chiang
Kai-shek was a member of this Four Power Conference in Tehran. But, I was there. I had
flown the Chinese delegates there from Cairo, and I have read it in a Congressional
Committee Report, "The U. S. Government and the Vietnam" Part 1-1945-1951" by the U. S.
Government Printing Office, 1984. ...



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Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2010, 12:55:50 PM »
Intersting theory. Not quite as likely as the generally accepted suicide theory, but certainly possible.
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Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2010, 10:26:12 PM »
I discovered some interesting facts about SS General Hermann Fegelein which are relevant to Hitler's escape.

First, Fegelein was the husband of Gretl Braun, Eva Braun's sister making him part of Hitler's extended family and inner circle.  Hitler and Fegelein were the husbands of the Braun sisters.  General Fegelein was Himmler's favored assistant and had the reputation as the young blond playboy of the Nazi hierarchy who had affairs with the young women. 


Also, according to the controversial 1948 interview of Gestapo Chief Heinrich Mueller, Mueller says that Fegelein was one of the small group that departed from the bunker with Hitler on 22 April 1945 en route to Spain (leaving Hitler's double in "command" under the supervision of  Mueller, Rattenhuber, and Heinz Linge who drugged, shot and buried this double in a shallow grave in the courtyard one day before the Russians arrived in order that they would discover the corpse). 


The initial consensus about General Fegelein's disappearance is that he was executed due to orders by Hitler, but the accounts of bunker survivors radically disagree about this.  The consensus today is that the exact details of General Fegelein's fate are uncertain.  The following accounts of the disappearance of General Fegelein thoroughly support the conclusion that he was never executed (especially the testimony of General Wilhelm Mohnke who having been ordered by Hitler to court martial him decided to hand custody of Fegelein over to General Rattenhuber and "never saw him again."  The trump is that Rattenhuber helped facilitate Fegelein and Hitler's escape.  The court martial and execution which Hitler ordered for General Fegelein were a prearranged plan agreed to by both Hitler and Fegelein in advance as a necessary cover for the fact that Fegelein survived and escaped along with Hitler.



At this point, historical accounts (about SS General Fegelein) begin to differ radically. In The Last Days of Hitler, historian Hugh Trevor-Roper remarked:
    "The real causes and circumstances of the execution of Fegelein provide one of the few subjects in this book upon which final certainty seems unattainable."

Journalist James P. O'Donnell discovered in his interviews numerous claims and theories as to what happened next to Fegelein. Some theories disagreed with each other... Many claimed he had been shot following a court-martial, and this theory predominated for many years.

General Wilhelm Mohnke, who presided over the court-martial, told O'Donnell the following:
    "Hitler ordered me to set up a tribunal forthwith. I was to preside over it myself...In my opinion and that of my fellow officers, Hermann Fegelein was in no condition to stand trial, or for that matter to even stand. I closed the proceedings...So I turned Fegelein over to SS GENERAL RATTENHUBER and his security squad. I never saw the man again."



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Re: The Flight of the Wolf
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2010, 12:50:49 AM »
The story of Adolf Hitler's Rothschild jewish ancestry is described by ex-Gestapo agent Hansjurgen Koehler in a chapter of his 1940 book 'Inside the Gestapo'

This story is corroborated by none other than Adolf Hitler's own nephew William Patrick Hitler and his mother Bridget Dowling Hitler who was the wife of Adolf Hitler's brother Alois Hitler, Jr. Although Bridget Hitler sought to have the book published in 1939, Willaim Randolph Hearst and the general fascist control of publishing in the United States successfully prevented her book being published during her lifetime.  Bridget Hitler's book was finally published in an edited form in 1979.


This book shows that Adolf Hitler visited and stayed with them in England in 1912.  Although it may sound like extreme leftist conspiracy theory, I would suggest that there is an element of Hitler's year in England which involves connections with right-wing elements in the British government.

According to the Nuremburg testimony of the Nazi dictator of Poland Hans Frank, Bridget Hitler's son William Patrick Hitler had the courage to stand up to his uncle while in Germany in the mid-1930's. Adolf Hitler got William Patrick a job at a bank, but William Patrick threatened his uncle Adolf that he would expose that Adolf Hitler's grandfather (and his own great uncle) was a jewish merchant unless he got him a better job. According to Frank, Adolf Hitler then offered him a high ranking position if William Patrick would relinquish his British citizenship. William Patrick Hitler who was at heart a convinced anti-Nazi, sensed a trap, and fled to the United States along with his mother where he went on speaking tours and later served the United States Navy during the war against Nazism.

Bravo! So some of the Hitlers were good guys after all!